Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[vengfarga]

OK, my main has been a Rog Mech since back when Rog Mech I was the only enhancement available for such and you had to buy the Xbow feats if you wanted to use your bonuses. I remember when Rog Mech II came out and I had to scrounge shards and then go see Fred a lot.
Then the Enhancement pass came through and gave me a big bunch of cool sounding stuff ... that was quickly discovered to be rubbish.
Traps will never be convincing and Great xbows will never be competitive because they are too, too slow.
I STILL play my mech because I love the concept.

So.... here's the rub. I'm pretty sure the devs/designers way back when the game began put in Rog Mechs because there were no Artificers and artis are fairly iconic in Eberron.
Later, artis got added. This made mechs kind of superfluous, even though many (including me) continued to play them.
If those original designers had looked at D&D in general then the 'tree' would have been a short bow/thrower/hand xbow build - one of the most iconic rogue archetypes. So ... what with the trap pass looking completely underwhelming and the repeater changes looking over powered, maybe now is the time to question whether or not Rog Mech as a tree should be replaced by 'sniper' or 'commando' or 'hitbeing' or whatever and pushing the whole repeaters thing over to the artis they were meant for whilst making a real ranged rogue tree that fits the traditional concept of a 'ranged rogue'.

I'd miss the Rog Mech a lot ... and having geared to it, I'd be kinda p'ed off; but it WOULD make sense from a met-game pov.

[Nascoe]

OK, my main has been a Rog Mech since back when Rog Mech I was the only enhancement available for such and you had to buy the Xbow feats if you wanted to use your bonuses. I remember when Rog Mech II came out and I had to scrounge shards and then go see Fred a lot.
Then the Enhancement pass came through and gave me a big bunch of cool sounding stuff ... that was quickly discovered to be rubbish.
Traps will never be convincing and Great xbows will never be competitive because they are too, too slow.
I STILL play my mech because I love the concept.

So.... here's the rub. I'm pretty sure the devs/designers way back when the game began put in Rog Mechs because there were no Artificers and artis are fairly iconic in Eberron.
Later, artis got added. This made mechs kind of superfluous, even though many (including me) continued to play them.
If those original designers had looked at D&D in general then the 'tree' would have been a short bow/thrower/hand xbow build - one of the most iconic rogue archetypes. So ... what with the trap pass looking completely underwhelming and the repeater changes looking over powered, maybe now is the time to question whether or not Rog Mech as a tree should be replaced by 'sniper' or 'commando' or 'hitbeing' or whatever and pushing the whole repeaters thing over to the artis they were meant for whilst making a real ranged rogue tree that fits the traditional concept of a 'ranged rogue'.

I'd miss the Rog Mech a lot ... and having geared to it, I'd be kinda p'ed off; but it WOULD make sense from a met-game pov.

Hey, I get what you are saying, and I agree that playing a rogue repeater often feels a bit underwhelming and pulling out a great crossbow (for when I run out of arrow, I use one at times for simple faraway mobs or maybe just to not feel stupid for carrying the thing with me) on live is really a pointless time sink that more often than not "eats" your attacks.
But go and have a go at Lamannia to see what the change to the animation did for crossbows before you feel desperate. Its a VERY noticeable change that makes sniper shooting single mobs/smaller faraway groups fun at least on heroics (scaling the damage is still not really getting close to one-two shotting off course).

[RockHeavy]

From a Lamma thread about the current release...

I did want to clarify the Critical threat range increase. This is an erroneous release note, and will be removed in future iterations of the release notes. This ended up not being implemented, but made it into the release notes.

So looks like a good proportion of discussion in this thread was about something that they never actually got round to implementing. Talk about underwhelming "revamp"

[Oxarhamar]

The repeated pleas that Expert builder be moved to level 12 are clearly made in the short sighted pursuit of what will at best be a short lived power-build model.

These small number of builds based on a level 12 master builder will do little other than grant it's pursuers a brief thrill of alpha-game-breaking status while antagonizing the general player community with it's broken nature, and rightly prompting a backlash. This is a cycle we have all seen again and again, hopefully this time the developers will keep their firm grasp on reasonable and prudent game design as they thus far with the proposal.

These "alpha-game-breaker status" will exists weather Master Builder is @ lvl 20 or @ lvl 1 core.

Maste build @ 18 just means mechanic will be poor choice for multi classing Beyond 5 levels.

[Aelonwy]

From a Lamma thread about the current release...



So looks like a good proportion of discussion in this thread was about something that they never actually got round to implementing. Talk about underwhelming "revamp"

Yes, I saw this, color me very disappointed. Without the addition to critical threat range it all seems pointless and whatever ideas I had to adjust my rogues feats and combat style are set aside. Back to mostly dual-weilding and only pulling out the throwing dagger/crossbow when the mob is on top of a wall or pillar.

I would have much preferred the critical threat range in core 12, but all the multiplier bonuses at 18 and 20. Oh well at least the theives tool change will benefit my rogue.

[gwonbush]

Don't knock the Great Crossbow crit profile too much. With Master Builder, even without the increase to crit range it is a 15-20/x4 weapon when you add improved critical, equivalent to a Khopesh with Holy Sword. And the base [W] is 2d8, with two feats and an enhancement available to give you another [W] each basically full time. With the significantly faster attack animation, this is no longer a weak weapon.

[Requiro]

Suggestion:

T3 (12 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows
T4: (18 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for all Bows, xbow and throwing weapons (thus for Great Crossbows +2)
T5: (20 level): +1 Critical Threat For all Bows, Xbow and throwing weapons (This bonus is NOT doubled with Improved Critical/Keen)

Profit!

[Failedlegend]

Suggestion:

T3 (12 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows
T4: (18 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for all Bows, xbow and throwing weapons (thus for Great Crossbows +2)
T5: (20 level): +1 Critical Threat For all Bows, Xbow and throwing weapons (This bonus is NOT doubled with Improved Critical/Keen)

Profit!

Personally I'd rather see this

T3 (12 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows & Non-Shuriken Thrown Weapons
T4: (18 level): +1 Critical Threat for Great Crossbows & Non-Shuriken Thrown Weapons
T5: (20 level): Unlimited SA/PBS Range for Great Crossbows & Non-Shuriken Thrown Weapons


...but if the devs insist on leaving Bows and Repeaters in (which should be DWS/Arties weapon of choice respectively imo) I'd still make a slight edit to your suggestion.


T3 (12 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows & Non-Shuriken Thrown Weapons
T4: (18 level): +1 Critical Multiplier for all Ranged Weapons (thus for Great Crossbows/Non-Shuriken Thrown Weapons +2)
T5: (20 level): +1 Critical Threat For all Ranged Weapons (This bonus is NOT doubled with Improved Critical/Keen)


Either way I also think AA should affect ALL ranged weapons It never made sense in PnP and was a very common house rule, still doesn't make sense in DDO.

[Severlin]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (determined by your weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Mechanic


Tier One

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Two

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Three

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Four

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.

Leg Shot: Requires level 4. Previous: Required level 12.

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows. Now requires level 12.

Sniper: Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2(W).

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

[ToastyFred]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Mechanic


Tier One

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Two

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Three

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Four

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.

Leg Shot: Requires level 4. Previous: Required level 12.

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows. Now requires level 12.

Sniper: Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2(W).

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

Interesting changes. Might have to investigate re-doing my Artificer Repeater build as a Mechanic.

13 Rogue/4 Artificer/3 Fighter might be what I need.

18 Rogue/2 Fighter or 20 Rogue are also intriguing depending on the need for feats.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Sev

I am hearing people saying that traps via trap smithing still aren't viable - as in still underperforming.

[Severlin]

Sev

I am hearing people saying that traps via trap smithing still aren't viable - as in still underperforming.

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

[Jetrule]

This tree was already the best of the revamps. The help for the g-xbow is nice. now if i can only get that leverage..

[Severlin]

I like these changes. Except for Dex to assassinate DC. IMO leave it as it was, it was good to choose to go with DEX or INT based with the related pros and cons. Now it will be a VASTLY superior choice to go DEX based. Dumping all those Harper tree points and putting them all elsewhere will FAR outweigh spending them in Harper as an INT based build, IMO.

FYI we couldn't make an Assassin build that hit top rogue DPS without using Know the Angles. Dex builds fell behind without it.

Sev~

[Jetrule]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

the problem i have heard most voiced is time bomb being buggy. Especially with uneven terrain and no trap being worth while in high end content. I have made several epic fire traps and you really do need a mine field to take out one spawn of say 5-10 orks on t.o.e.e. Set at e.h.. And that would be quite resource intensive. Spell traps are where its at.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

Damage traps - will talk to guildies and find out more.

Agree - the one two punch .

[Jetrule]

FYI we couldn't make an Assassin build that hit top rogue DPS without using Know the Angles. Dex builds fell behind without it.

Sev~

Dex based rogues will have less trap dc as well.

[Unsmitten]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Mechanic


Tier One

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Two

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Three

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Four

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.

Leg Shot: Requires level 4. Previous: Required level 12.

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows. Now requires level 12.

Sniper: Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2(W).

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

So, with the sharpshooter change, is the repeater damage changed to sneak attack? Or is the sneak attack only for non-repeaters? And you are shafting repeaters?

Regardless, adding more sneak dice is great, but you need to give mechanic a bluff shot, so they can utilize their sneak attacks. Do not tell us to use a deception item, unless you put deception in a clear augment with ML 1, one! I had thought that assassins mark from assassin would work like a bluff, so I didn't make a fuss, but it does not. Please look at adding a bluff shot similar to sniper shot from deepwood stalker to mechanic(the "sniper" tree as stated by you sev!)

Crafted trap damage is still too low to make them worthwhile.



Also, please show some love to the Shadowdancer ED!!! It should have been included min this pass.

[Wongar]

Will the crit multiplier from Expert Builder stack with Lethality?

[bbqzor]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows

So uh... its nice that youre trying to make non-repeating crossbows cool and all. But then whats the point of using a repeater? Seriously the tree shouldnt be providing such lopsided benefits which just create a new option and raise it to the same level as the old option. What about stuff for the old option (repeaters) that helps promote them. Can we get some changes to maybe make those appealing too.

And.. whats the deal with avoiding any changes related to the traps or alchemical effects here. Ooze flask has a terrible DC, time bomb is reported as buggy, thunderstone reportedly doesnt daze, etc. Those ought to work.

And finally, whats with the 3 min dc on the capstone. This has been posted a ton before, can we please get that down to 2 mins (50/50 uptime for the buff, with 120s cd on heal). At 3 mins is terribly punitive in terms of actually trying to play it in quests. Either you hit it like 1-2 times for the heal and quick dodge bump, or you try to run it 1-2 times on a boss for the dps.... if it went a bit faster you could try to make a little more use of it for both reasons rather than picking and choosing. Guess if you play slower this matters less, but if youre moving along to keep up with others 3 mins is one of the slowest cd in the whole game (it is the slowest, outside of epic moments, that I can think of). Why is a capstone not so fun.

Again not so impressed. Needed fixes on abilities and addressing of cd issues. And some reasons to use a repeater beyond "oh hey +atk/dmg". Or if not, at least some kind of hint that artificers are going to push repeaters and mechanics are going to push great xbows or whatever. As it stands, repeaters really didnt go up much (10 ranged power, 10 alacrity) which is unfortunate. I know the animation changes helped them, but that doesnt equate to the enhancement tree being exciting.

Also, can we get word on how doubleshot is applying to repeaters now, post animation change. Have you guys run the numbers on shots per minute and stuff, instead of just giving them 1/3rd the chance per bolt. What should we be seeing in that regards, and why did you choose those values. Ty.