whats the point of ransack and =< 1% drop rates?

[FestusHood]

Well, I am still having fun, even if I don't get the named items I've been farming don't show up.
Current list:

• Green Ioun Stone out of Shadow of a Doubt (Not a must have btw but I would like it).
• Goggles from White Dragon in Tor w/+3 Insight Bonus (This is one, of many, loot design mistakes, imho) which is BiS for most min/max builds.
• Epee from The Missing
• Ring of Spell Storing (kinda, but not really) from Desert

One of these is not like the others. The turbulent epee from Missing has to have at least a 50% drop rate. Are you hitting the right chest? It's that one in the hideout, surrounded by water.

[FestusHood]

The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

Like the Op, you massively overestimate the difference between best in slot gear and pretty good gear as to how it affects your actual game performance.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Been playing DDO for awhile; not as long as some, longer than others.

Don't let join dates mislead you. I've mentioned elsewhere having multiple alternate accounts. Some date back to within 6 months of DDO's public release.

What is significant is your observation that U10-U15 (6 updates) did not have BIS items. I guess that ignores U0-U9 (10 updates) and U16-U24 (9 updates). I suppose that the reason for this is the same insistence shown in other posts of defining for everyone what "must have loot" actually is.

In any case, my contention is that what drives interest with each new release is the new loot. Whether it is actually "must have" or BIS is somewhat moot. What is not moot is that desire for the loot is what drives players to run the quests. And, substantially this remains true for all releases -- including the 6 that you chose to exempt.

It is not an homage to players coming from other systems -- it has always been a routine part of DDO.

[Kompera_Oberon]

So, you missed entirely the part in the original post where he mentions being VIP didn't you. It was the first words of the original message:

No, I didn't miss that. What I might have missed was any connection between being a VIP player and additional difficulty. You have woven this argument that VIP players can rush to Epic level in just a few days, and maybe that's true. But don't then try to also claim that the game requires particular gear to be played. That's the contradiction you keep repeating, and it is utterly illogical.

Let's not let the abundance of build posts that start out with "I'm building for normal content and need your advice" demonstrate the complete totality of your misperception. Instead, let's just continue with the insular perspective that because you choose to under perform that this is the highest ambition of others and that any aspiration to do better should meet with failure because you fail.

Let's not ignore them. But then don't turn around and try to argue that the default is running Elite content. Because, and this is becoming quite a trend for you, that's a complete self-contradiction.

And then let's also not ignore the good half dozen or so experienced player who have responded to the OP in this very thread and have told him that grinding for gear is in no way a requirement.

Using subjective terms such as "under perform" or "you fail" or "The standard is epic elite" doesn't make any points. All it does is demonstrate your own personal bias. Many people have contradicted you, right here in this thread. My own play experience contradicts you. And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

*Ahem* "You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality."

[Bluegirl_Two]

Like the Op, you massively overestimate the difference between best in slot gear and pretty good gear as to how it affects your actual game performance.

No, I have not. I have pretty good gear. It is nowhere near BIS gear. And, the performance difference is very evident when questing alongside someone who has best in slot.

Put a different way, I will sometimes comment in a build thread about lowering expectations when a poster lists BIS gear and posts video or screen shots of a character's performance -- because I know that players without the gear are not going to come close to the results being posted. I know that because I have followed those build plans and developed characters with pretty good gear and those characters do not come close.

No, I have a very good grasp on the difference between pretty good and BIS.

What I will acknowledge and what I would argue for is AbyssalMage's point about a period when there was no true BIS item. IMO more builds and play styles are available when there is no BIS or when BIS is variable based on player choices. As I said elsewhere, my best case scenario would be a gear crafting system that followed multiple paths from low/medium/high heroic through low/medium/high epic and resulted in different look characters differentiated by which patron/master they chose.

But, in the current game BIS is vastly superior to really good and there are few slots where strong debate will occur about what item should go there.

[FestusHood]

No, I have not. I have pretty good gear. It is nowhere near BIS gear. And, the performance difference is very evident when questing alongside someone who has best in slot.

Put a different way, I will sometimes comment in a build thread about lowering expectations when a poster lists BIS gear and posts video or screen shots of a character's performance -- because I know that players without the gear are not going to come close to the results being posted. I know that because I have followed those build plans and developed characters with pretty good gear and those characters do not come close.

No, I have a very good grasp on the difference between pretty good and BIS.

What I will acknowledge and what I would argue for is AbyssalMage's point about a period when there was no true BIS item. IMO more builds and play styles are available when there is no BIS or when BIS is variable based on player choices. As I said elsewhere, my best case scenario would be a gear crafting system that followed multiple paths from low/medium/high heroic through low/medium/high epic and resulted in different look characters differentiated by which patron/master they chose.

But, in the current game BIS is vastly superior to really good and there are few slots where strong debate will occur about what item should go there.

The main strength of most of the necro gear is that it consolidates many abilities onto single slots. Ghostly, Deadly, doublestrike, etc. all works exactly the same regardless of where it is slotted. People like to make out that the difference between a +10 stat item and a +11 stat item is huge. It isn't.

As far as seeing a difference in performance, you're excluding the fact that the person you are observing is a different player. It would be interesting to see if you could swap gear with them, and if the performances would completely reverse.

[Uska]

Um. Ransack is good encourages running of more quests and no don't need any particular gear of any kind. You may want something to,try to make yourself better but you don't need it. As to raids being impossible to solo sadly that's not true many peope do solo some of them sadly heck I even did the shroud once myself on hard at level.

[Bluegirl_Two]

No, I didn't miss that. What I might have missed was any connection between being a VIP player and additional difficulty. You have woven this argument that VIP players can rush to Epic level in just a few days, and maybe that's true. But don't then try to also claim that the game requires particular gear to be played. That's the contradiction you keep repeating, and it is utterly illogical.

You know, if you keep refusing to read the caveats then you are going to keep missing the point. So, let's remake the point for you.

For the expenditure of real money and the purchase of Turbine Points a brand new free-to-play player can advance a never played character from L1 to L20 instantaneously. We just ended almost a week long sale of Otto's Box in the Turbine Store. Reincarnate and that same character now can open any content on hard.

For an additional purchase and with sufficient XP boost that same free-to-play player can advance the same never played character on a second life from L1 to L20 again instantly. Reincarnate and that same character now can open any content on elite.

Continuing to spend real money and with sufficient XP boost that same not yet played character can jump a third life from L1 to L18. The character will be within 800k XP of L20. Look up best XP quests in the Wiki and run a combination of Vale, Web of Chaos and Inspired Quarter quests and jump to L20 in a matter of hours.

I'm not just weaving an argument for you -- I'm telling you that it can be done. For an investment of under $200 any person can jump to epic content on a 36 point character build and have played less than a dozen quests.

But then don't turn around and try to argue that the default is running Elite content.

Alright, you tell me just how many LFMs are out there for normal or hard quest settings. The default is elite and that is the default standard for builds and gear choices.

And then let's also not ignore the good half dozen or so experienced player who have responded to the OP in this very thread and have told him that grinding for gear is in no way a requirement.

If a person wants to be content running normal/hard then they are right. What they are having trouble acknowledging is that if they are typically running elite content they are either in groups that are well geared or they already have the gear themselves. Check with them and see how many are willing to run an epic elite Thunderpeak or Deathwyrm without being in their primary destiny and using only loot gen gear.

I hear them, but they are not being entirely honest.

And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

Let's clear this up. I do not agree with you. I appreciate you trying to make it seem that way. but I've said nothing of the sort. Most quests have 4 difficulty settings. That means nearly 25% of all quests are elite. And, running elite quests at or below level is in fact gear dependent -- which is what I have consistently said. The addition of greater challenge only makes that near 25% of content even more gear dependent than it already was.

Then again, since you admit to routinely running quests only at level on normal/hard you really do not know the challenge involved. I manage precisely because at L1 I immediately leave Korthos and regear before entering any dungeon. I rely on gear. it is the only way that I blow through content while remaining below level. It is gear that enables this.

Using subjective terms such as "under perform" or "you fail" or "The standard is epic elite" doesn't make any points.

You described how you quest. You bragged about running at level on normal/hard. If you do not want to acknowledge that such an approach does not equate to success that is fine. You do get to define your own success. But, you should understand that within forum discussions running at level normal/hard is under performing, a failure and substandard. It is not the goal state of most forum posters and it certainly is not the parameter that guides most advice that is given.

[Bluegirl_Two]

The main strength of most of the necro gear is that it consolidates many abilities onto single slots. Ghostly, Deadly, doublestrike, etc. all works exactly the same regardless of where it is slotted. People like to make out that the difference between a +10 stat item and a +11 stat item is huge. It isn't.

As far as seeing a difference in performance, you're excluding the fact that the person you are observing is a different player. It would be interesting to see if you could swap gear with them, and if the performances would completely reverse.

While all of what you say has some truth to it, it also conveniently ignores the bigger truth -- which is that by consolidation slots are freed for other things. If I put ghostly and doublestrike and stat increase all in one slot that frees 1 and maybe 2 slots for something else.

As to the value of +1 more stat -- the forums have had many discussions about the value of just 1 more point of whatever. In general, the forums disagree with you. And, for some builds where the increase literally means beating a DC or not it is absolutely critical. I remember a long ago assassin build thread....

So, while there is some truth in what you say it is misleading because it ignores the larger truths.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Um. Ransack is good encourages running of more quests and no don't need any particular gear of any kind. You may want something to,try to make yourself better but you don't need it. As to raids being impossible to solo sadly that's not true many peope do solo some of them sadly heck I even did the shroud once myself on hard at level.

Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

[Chi_Ryu]

I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist.

Icywave did. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st-life-feats?

The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.

It is irrelevant whether the "majority" of people can solo Shroud and Reaver's Fate (especially when you go on to set the standard we are discussing as Epic Elite, which I strongly doubt is the difficulty that most people in the game cannot and do not play at) - and to be frank, neither are a super hard challenge at level 28 with a decent Epic Destiny. The hardest bit of Shroud (on Normal) is splitting up the lieutenents in Part 2, and for Reaver's Fate it is not being bounced about by the air elementals whilst solving the puzzle.

Similarly, there is no "must have" loot from Vault of Night. Sure the Epic Sword of Shadow is nice, but nowhere near a necessity for EE play, same with Kundarak Delving Boots (which are a nice source of FOM from levels 9-24, but trivially replaced from late Heroic onwards if you invest in UMD). Almost everything else is junk, especially at Epic level.

The OP also drastically underestimates drop rates, aside from Mythic items there is very little in the game with a <1% drop rate.

[Ayseifn]

Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

Low drop rates encourage running quests because it takes longer to get said item, once you get said item you never need to run that quest ever again and that's a huge problem right now. The recent change to a ton of quests where loot drops like candy just made all those quests obsolete after a few ransacks.

What really sucks about the loot grind is when you have 99% of the things you want and it's just that last widget you need, if I still want 20 or so items I can rotate through quests and not burn out on that one single quest. There's a lot of people now in that 99% category because of how easy it is to get BiS items.

[Bluegirl_Two]

The OP also drastically underestimates drop rates, aside from Mythic items there is very little in the game with a <1% drop rate.

Searching for historic data, SoS drop rate was calculated to be ~5% per raid group and ~.8% per individual on normal, ~1% per individual on hard, and ~1.25% per individual on elite. Dragon's Eye was calculated at ~2% per raid group which made it ~.3%/~.4%/~.5% per individual.

It is worth noting which drop rates were increased and which were not in U24. When everything is said and done a <1% generalization is pretty close.

[Uska]

Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

I did it on a first life character so Ed's were't a factor and his gear was **** and it was only hard and no Harry didn't bugout. I admit it was a palemaster and the hardest part was getting the sub bosses apart to kill them and I have tried since and can't repeat it but I hate solo play anyways

[Uska]

Searching for historic data, SoS drop rate was calculated to be ~5% per raid group and ~.8% per individual on normal, ~1% per individual on hard, and ~1.25% per individual on elite. Dragon's Eye was calculated at ~2% per raid group which made it ~.3%/~.4%/~.5% per individual.

It is worth noting which drop rates were increased and which were not in U24. When everything is said and done a <1% generalization is pretty close.

Sounds right on SoS as that's the one raid I do frequently on epic and rarely do we see the items for it

[Bluegirl_Two]

Low drop rates encourage running quests because it takes longer to get said item, once you get said item you never need to run that quest ever again and that's a huge problem right now.

I can see the rationale in that argument. I would counter that if the gear is obsolete, as many posters have suggested, then there isn't any reason to run those quests anyway.

So, I would suggest that the problem isn't that people would get the items and be done -- the problem is that there's not much reason to get the item anyway and making it hard is just an added reason to never run the quest.

I will reiterate that VoN seems to be the one exception. Even accepting that eSoS is obsolete and that the number of people farming it is very small, the quest continues to be run because the XP payout is so high.

This suggests the solution to quests not being run is to boost the XP payout. Drop rates and ransack at this point appear to have very little to do with a decision about what quest to run.

Loot is the driver when quests are new. XP is the driver when quests are old. And, for as long as the old loot is just twink gear and is, as posters have stated, only equivalent or perhaps less powerful than random generated loot, the only thing that will drive players to the abandoned/avoided quests is a substantial revamping of the XP that is offered.

[Bluegirl_Two]

I did it on a first life character so Ed's were't a factor and his gear was **** and it was only hard and no Harry didn't bugout. I admit it was a palemaster and the hardest part was getting the sub bosses apart to kill them and I have tried since and can't repeat it but I hate solo play anyways

Fair enough.

Sort of helps my point though rather than that of people talking about how normal it is for people to solo raids.

[Thrudh]

I could go ahead and make the best character possible and not use named gear, but would I be able to do nearly anything worth doing in this game?

Yes... I have characters that I have built recently that have no raid gear, and they can complete any content in the game.

If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.

This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds, the ability to complete questlines, or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

That's the god's truth, and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong here... The game is very easy... You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite. Missing a dozen points in something won't stop you from doing well.

[blerkington]

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong here... The game is very easy... You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite. Missing a dozen points in something won't stop you from doing well.

Hi,

If the OP actually started when his join date says he did, he would be fairly new to the game and lacking the experience that makes things easy for veterans. He may still still be at the point where every little bit of gear does help.

It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

[Bluegirl_Two]

You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite.

I'm sorry but that is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Unless you are running in a group and that group is doing most of the heavy work a character with only 60% of max character power isn't going to get the job done.

Of course, epic elite is misleading since there are some really low level epic elite quests. But if you are talking base L28+ quests on EE my experience is that such talk is pure bravado.

Like I've said before in this thread, I have a pretty well geared character and he gets humbled in the higher level EE quests. The only way he can run them is in a group and he is mostly useless in those groups.

And, I would own up to my incompetence as a builder and player if it were not that I can run the same quests on EH with little or no sense of uselessness. The notion that 60% of character power is sufficient is complete bluster and egregiously false and misleading.