whats the point of ransack and =< 1% drop rates?

[Ayseifn]

I can see the rationale in that argument. I would counter that if the gear is obsolete, as many posters have suggested, then there isn't any reason to run those quests anyway.

So, I would suggest that the problem isn't that people would get the items and be done -- the problem is that there's not much reason to get the item anyway and making it hard is just an added reason to never run the quest.

I will reiterate that VoN seems to be the one exception. Even accepting that eSoS is obsolete and that the number of people farming it is very small, the quest continues to be run because the XP payout is so high.

This suggests the solution to quests not being run is to boost the XP payout. Drop rates and ransack at this point appear to have very little to do with a decision about what quest to run.

Loot is the driver when quests are new. XP is the driver when quests are old. And, for as long as the old loot is just twink gear and is, as posters have stated, only equivalent or perhaps less powerful than random generated loot, the only thing that will drive players to the abandoned/avoided quests is a substantial revamping of the XP that is offered.

The obsolescing of gear is a recent problem, it's gotten so bad that I don't even run new quests for loot that has decent odds of being outdated in 3 months. It doesn't help that the game is so easy that I don't feel the need to properly gear up either.

Loot can be a driver for a very long time as you noticed with VoN to some extent but DQ was the king of it. Torcs have been great since inception and also rare, people still want RoSSs and from when DQ went epic(it was the first epic pack) until around MotU people still wanted things from there and so still ran those quests. Upping the XP in abandoned content is fine but upping drop rates has ramifications just like obsoleting it does, even less incentive to run it.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Upping the XP in abandoned content is fine but upping drop rates has ramifications just like obsoleting it does, even less incentive to run it.

What is less than zero? Since the incentive now is at or near 0% explain how upping drop rates would materially change anything?

But, more than that, I think your perspective is incorrect. I think upped drop rates would have the initial effect of increasing popularity as people sought out gear. Why do you thing drop rates were increased in certain quest lines? I was not to discourage people from playing them.

Upped XP is how you keep people playing quest lines. First you incentivize them with increased drop rates and then you reward them with increased XP.

Again, VoN is an exception because it has both things going for it -- still desired loot in eSoS AND good XP. Halve the XP and see just how fast people stop running that raid.

BTW, let's not fixate on some arcane formula for XP calculation. XP is whatever the DM sets it at. Nothing stops Turbine from setting XP to whatever value is most effective for enticing players to choose specific quests or quest lines.

[Ayseifn]

But, more than that, I think your perspective is incorrect. I think upped drop rates would have the initial effect of increasing popularity as people sought out gear. Why do you thing drop rates were increased in certain quest lines? I was not to discourage people from playing them.

Initially yes but then it's quickly back to where it was or worse. DQ lasted years and then when updated to epic lasted years more because the loot was a combination of rare and good. On the flip side is 3BC, run through once to have a look, ransack a quest or two to get all the items and then never set foot in there again. 3BC also added heal amp gloves and FOM boots that're better than claw gloves and VoN boots, lessening a reason to run red fens and VoN.

[Vulkoorex]

Make it so that there is no ransack penalty for VIPs. An extra perk for subscribers.

And no...I'm not VIP. Premium...for now.

[Vulkoorex]

Ransacking penalty

F2P: keep it as is..8 I think.
Premium: raise to 10.
VIP: no ransack penalty.

Pretty good incentive to go VIP.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Make it so that there is no ransack penalty for VIPs. An extra perk for subscribers.

There is some merit to that thought but I think it misses something.

We are about to get a new update. How many of you have been on Lamannia running the new content? You are aware that some subset of the player population has done just that, right?

You are aware that many of those players are going to ransack the quest within the first 48 hours (using stockpiled raid timer bypasses if necessary). If you pay attention to any release you will see that as a regular pattern. And, you'll notice that it happens mostly in guild and well established raid groups involving the same group of players.

What you will also notice is that somewhere between 48 and 72 hours after release there will be a down time and a hot fix. What you might not notice is that there will be a noticeable decrease in drop rate afterwards.

Now, I don't know if that is just forum legend or if it really happens. What I do know is that there will be postings complaining about it as there have been following almost every other release.

Essentially what happens is the haves get and the have nots don't. It has always been that way -- maybe more openly so since Lamannia went to a public server.

So, I don't think that ransack penalty even matters. I don't think it influences any player behavior at all -- at least not in a positive and game enriching way. All that it does is create negativism directed at DDO over a mechanism that delays and hinders players from completing items -- items that most people in this thread dismiss as obsolete and irrelevant anyway.

No, the better answer is to just remove ransack. The alternative is to increase drop rates so that ransack becomes a negligible factor. I prefer the alternative. But either or both is probably appropriate at this point in the game.

[Thrudh]

This statement is just incredible...just wow.

"If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling."

Btw you don't "need" anything these days character power is strong enough to play with random loot.

I don't twink at all between levels 1-11... I just use whatever I find in chests... I do admit I pull out greensteel at 11 and 12, but then I use that until 20...

Random loot today is quite powerful...

[Thrudh]

The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

Oh, we're only talking about epic elite... So ignore all of heroic, and all epic hard quests... got it... That's reality for everyone, you say? I don't think that's what the OP was talking about... but okay...

Yeah you might have to get some decent gear before you play epic elite.... That seems reasonable, I think... Or do you think new players (we're talking about new players, right?) should be able to walk into epic elite on their first life??

If that IS what you're saying, Epic Orchard has some pretty good drop rates, and most of that stuff is best in slot...

[Thrudh]

Hi,

If the OP actually started when his join date says he did, he would be fairly new to the game and lacking the experience that makes things easy for veterans. He may still still be at the point where every little bit of gear does help.

It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

He may need practice, but he doesn't need hard-to-grind gear... Random loot is quite good... There's no need to grind for anything in the heroic levels.

And there's nothing wrong with running normal or hard your first time in a quest... In fact i encourage new players to solo new quests on normal or hard... Much more enjoyable to go slow your first time in a quest.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Even low drop rates of around 1.5% you will get in a few months, if you really want it, by blowing through a dungeon with a capped farming character.

A very good post and well said. I would just suggest that the "in a few months" doesn't really fit the paradigm for most people. In that same period of time a character can be running epic content and well on the way to end game -- or even capped and reincarnated several times if a player is more active. Waiting around several months for something, particularly something that (thus far) virtually everyone here has deemed obsolete, seems, well, stupid.

I'm not sure why we think doing stupid stuff is an acceptable part of the game.

[Thrudh]

It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

It's also a bad moment when newer players lecture veterans....

This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds, the ability to complete questlines, or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

That's the god's truth, and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

I am not lying when I say having a +4 item instead of a +5 item will not make or break my build, or stop me from completing questlines, or in general stop me from playing or having fun at ALL.

[Thrudh]

I'm sorry but that is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Unless you are running in a group and that group is doing most of the heavy work a character with only 60% of max character power isn't going to get the job done.

Of course, epic elite is misleading since there are some really low level epic elite quests. But if you are talking base L28+ quests on EE my experience is that such talk is pure bravado.

Like I've said before in this thread, I have a pretty well geared character and he gets humbled in the higher level EE quests. The only way he can run them is in a group and he is mostly useless in those groups.

And, I would own up to my incompetence as a builder and player if it were not that I can run the same quests on EH with little or no sense of uselessness. The notion that 60% of character power is sufficient is complete bluster and egregiously false and misleading.

Nope, I'm correct... Yes, you need to be in a group, but you don't need to be carried... Who said the benchmark is soloing epic elite? If you can't solo end-game epic elite, your character is worthless and it's impossible to advance or have fun? That's bogus.

A group of decent players with decent gear can beat any epic elite quest in the game... There doesn't need be any uber-elite in that group carrying everyone either.

That is 100% true. Fact. Testify!

[Bluegirl_Two]

Oh, we're only talking about epic elite...

I know you want to argue. I know that is your way. But stop being misleading and understand the truth of what I am saying.

When a build gets posted the discussion is not about how it is designed for heroic normal content -- the discussion is about how it will do in epic elite.

When a player expressly states that they don't really care about elite but that they have a build that they want to try and they would like critiques -- the critiques invariably roll over to "make this change so that you can run epic elites" and do so even though the initial post explicitly states that the OP doesn't care.

The standard in the forums is epic elite. That is a fact irrespective of whether you encourage players to solo on normal or how much fun it is to slow down and not worry about how much XP per minute is being earned.

OP complained about drop rates and ransack. He has a valid complaint. The gear isn't really needed for normal questing, not really for hard questing. So what could the motivation be to get the gear?

Just about everyone concedes that the gear that will be crafted is already obsolete, yet the OP still complained about the difficulty of getting the gear. Just what will it be used for? For flower sniffing on heroic normal?

The mindset of the game, of the forums, is elite, elite, elite. Like I have said already in this thread, go look at the LFM listings. How many are for normal level questing? The norm is elite -- pure and simple.

A new player coming in, one who is VIP, seeing the preponderance of questing being done on elite, reading the builds which are dominated by what performs best in epic elite -- it takes almost no effort to become aware that everything about the game is elite oriented.

The fact that you have to encourage players to solo on normal just further shows this.

So, yes, when talking about quests and builds and gear the only thing that really matters is epic elite. How to get there, what intermediate gear is needed to make the journey as fast and efficient as possible.

And, Turbine is right there on board with that idea. Why do you think they offered a nearly week long sale on Otto's Boxes? Why XP bonus days? Why sales on heart woods and XP potions? Why did those follow one another sequentially these past several days?

It is because Turbine know that the player focus is on epic content too. So Turbine's push is to epic and the player's push is to elite. And that means, yes, the only thing that matters is epic elite.

That pervades, guides and informs nearly everything about the game -- including the loyal opposition that keeps trying to convince the world that it is alright to just run normal or hard.

[Thrudh]

The standard in the forums is epic elite.

The mindset of the game, of the forums, is elite, elite, elite. Like I have said already in this thread, go look at the LFM listings. How many are for normal level questing? The norm is elite -- pure and simple.

The LFMs I see are 90% heroic elite (which is very different from epic elite), and epic hard.

Your statements have no basis in fact. Well, the forums may be about epic elite, but the forums are also full of bitter bored people who apparently play a game they hate for 6 hours a day...

The actual game is not about epic elite... Like you said, look at the LFMs...

One does not need named gear to complete heroic elite or epic hard. Random loot is quite good nowadays.

A new player should not expect to be able to solo epic elite 2 months after starting... Do you think really they should be able to? Should they be able to get all best-in-slot gear after 2 months of playing? Because that is what the OP is asking for. He is quite upset that he doesn't have all the best gear after playing for 2 months and spending $100.

Seriously... look at the LFMs... You are 100% wrong that the game is only about epic elite... And you are seriously wrong that a player needs to have an absolutely maxed out character to do well in epic elite. I do just fine with only a few past lives, and decent gear (but not best in slot) and usually playing semi-flavor builds, not focusing 100% on DPS.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Who said the benchmark is soloing epic elite? If you can't solo end-game epic elite, your character is worthless and it's impossible to advance or have fun?

That is not what anyone has said. It is not what I said. Nor did I say that a character is worthless or impossible to have fun with.

What I did say was that well geared characters are noticeably less capable than best in slot geared characters when running epic elite -- particularly the more difficult epic elites. And what I did say is that a 60% of max power character is not going to contribute very much in those more difficult epic elites.

When facing 150k hit point foes in a group pumping out near 1k damage per hit the guy adding only 600 damage isn't making much of an impact. When the other characters are benefiting at +100 from heals the guy getting only +60 is a drain on party resources. When other party members are pushing 1500 hp the guy with only 900 represents a great risk. When others are mitigating 80% of incoming damage the guy only mitigating 48% takes constant care.

The notion that the most difficult epic elites can be easily handled by a party of 60 percenters is laughable. And the notion that one or two in a raid actually contribute significantly to success is false -- the real work is done by the other party members.

Now, I don't really object to that situation. In fact, it is often a necessary situation to get some piece of gear or to earn favor. And, it is even sometimes a prelude to the character obtaining the needed BIS items to move from a 60% contributor to a 100% contributor.

But let's not pretend that everything is so easy that all that is needed is to wake up one morning and decide you want to run top level EE.

And, keep in mind that this is the new player forum. Even if by some stretch those of us with abundant experience could achieve that task it is not a likely outcome for new players. If it were there would be no need for you to encourage them to run content on normal to learn the ropes.

[Ayseifn]

A very good post and well said. I would just suggest that the "in a few months" doesn't really fit the paradigm for most people. In that same period of time a character can be running epic content and well on the way to end game -- or even capped and reincarnated several times if a player is more active. Waiting around several months for something, particularly something that (thus far) virtually everyone here has deemed obsolete, seems, well, stupid.

I'm not sure why we think doing stupid stuff is an acceptable part of the game.

You don't have to wait around though, just hit that quest again a few times next life if you want to TR or if it's a raid and you want to go for a 20th then do some ETRs while waiting. It livens up the TR process a bit too, because instead of gravitating to the best XP quests you can instead go do quests that have loot you want.

I just did an ETR that got me a whopping 11 HP, doing stupid stuff in MMOs is par for the course.

[Bluegirl_Two]

The LFMs I see are 90% heroic elite (which is very different from epic elite), and epic hard.

Heroic elite, yes.

Epic hard -- for some of the most difficult epics and for speed runs when gear farming.

Epic elite -- for all of the easier epics and for XP farming.

Epic normal -- only for the very hardest of epic elites.

And, even with that break down the most common epic LFMs are for epic elite -- normally something like "daily XP run" or VoN5/6 or sagas.

Now, maybe we're on different servers but the clear majority over time really is EE for epic quests just as it is HE for heroic quests.

[Bluegirl_Two]

You don't have to wait around though, just hit that quest again a few times next life if you want to TR or if it's a raid and you want to go for a 20th then do some ETRs while waiting. It livens up the TR process a bit too, because instead of gravitating to the best XP quests you can instead go do quests that have loot you want.

I just did an ETR that got me a whopping 11 HP, doing stupid stuff in MMOs is par for the course.

This is the point in the conversation where my parents would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge would you jump too?"

Stupid stuff is stupid whether it is par for the course or not. And trying to pretend it is less stupid by spreading it around more doesn't make it any better.

Sort of like trying to fool my parents into thinking I'd eaten my peas by smashing them up a bit and spreading them around my dinner plate. Pretending it is something that it is not doesn't make it any better either.

[Thrudh]

The notion that the most difficult epic elites can be easily handled by a party of 60 percenters is laughable.

Nope, it's easy... You may have to actually use tactics, instead of just zerging face-first into a ton of mobs, but a group of decent players (not great), using decent gear (not great), will still complete that epic elite quest, and probably have a lot more fun than the 97% DPS min/max guys who are really only playing as fast as they can so they can grind out 120 hours of exp or gear for another 1% that they really don't need.

The devs have done a decent job with the game... Most systems are front-loaded... You get 80% of the benefit of heroic past-lives with just 3-4 of them... But the option is there for min/max OCD types to grind out 30+ lives for that last 20%... Even though the highest level quests don't require that level of power to complete.

Same with gear. You can get good enough gear to complete any quest in the game fairly easily... You can also grind for the best gear that is 20% better... but you don't NEED to...

But let's not pretend that everything is so easy that all that is needed is to wake up one morning and decide you want to run top level EE.

Note that now you're talking about "top-level" EE... lower-level epic elites don't count, right??

So now we're focusing only on the top 1% of the game, and everything is broken because a new player can't play at that level after 2 months? Is that a design flaw that Turbine has made?

[Thrudh]

This is the point in the conversation where my parents would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge would you jump too?"

Heck, yeah... If EVERYONE is jumping off the bridge, I'm guessing there's a gasoline truck on fire heading my way, and I'm jumping too...