whats the point of ransack and =< 1% drop rates?

[PsychoBlonde]

You contradict yourself on every single point you make and then state that others are ignoring realities? Those words you keep using, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Indeed. I hate grinding gear and love to TR. I also hate using everybody else's builds, so I usually build wonkus stuff that kinda works and also kinda doesn't. And I solo/pug an elite streak from Korthos to epics. I'm too lazy to play gear tetris, so I throw out a lot of stuff when I TR. So I'm almost always starting off a new life with no useful gear available.

The game is tougher if you don't have tomes--those can help a fair bit. But you can buy those on the auction house (up to, say, about +3/4). Yeah, they're generally expensive, but it's not like in the old days where you had to get a new full set of tomes every life. They last forever now.

I'm in a fairly large guild, so I see all kinds from the uber-geared to the (like me) lazy and disinterested, and the only real divisor between us is how well we play, not how much stuff we have. I've had to pull people with far "better" gear out of interesting (and stupid) ways they managed to get themselves killed plenty of times.

I know vets who have been playing for years who are still mediocre at best and resist any attempt you make at helping them improve.

Yes, there are stupid and broken parts to the game. That doesn't mean that the entire game is stupid and broken and that you have "no choice" except to play it X way. I don't, and I do all content on all difficulties.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Sounds like he was talking about twink items. What other use could he have for old raid items? I mean the guy has been playing for 2 months, has he even capped yet? I don't know.

I took the original post to refer to old raid items, aka twink items. It is why I made such a point of referring to that other thread suggesting that the various crafting processes and old gear might deserve a place in the trash heap.

As to capping characters, Turbine's own system is 3 days for a reincarnate and that can be bypassed. With experience stones a player can true reincarnate from L20 without ever adventuring for their first or second life. With a tome of learning, XP potion and access to a guild ship they can jump to ~L18 without ever questing and reach L20 after running IQ on an elite streak (maybe adding the Web of Chaos chain if really pushed). That's 3 lives in about 6 hours of game play on a really bad day.

Epic levels with an XP stone and XP boosts is instant jump to ~L25. Final ~2.5 million XP to cap might take a day of hard work assuming a solid hard or elite streak and smart quest/raid choices. Also would require some cooperation from fellow players or a static group/active guild. Soloing it might take the whole 3 days.

So, in 60 days a person willing to spend the money and do the hard work could probably hit heroic completionist and be well on the way to epic completionist. Even without the monetary investment they could easily epic cap 2 to 3 times if they managed the time commitment.

IMO that is easily achievable but it is also the wrong question to be asking.

The right question is whether grinding for those old raid/twink items has any justification given the current state of the game. Or, considering that a player can purchase pretty much anything needed to make a character workable in all but EE content is the grindfest just a vestige of an outdated version of the game.

Is it time for a game-wide rebuilding to pull the various systems together into a consistent, integrated model that leads by several paths to alternative but equally viable end-game gear choices.

Interestingly enough, there is yet another thread touching upon these things. The current conversation there is on how grinding is defined and whether it is good or not. I suggest that months long grinding no longer fits the play pattern of DDO. Rapid character development, near instantaneous advancement to epic level -- these describe the current game.

We just finished XP bonus days and Otto's Boxes. The entire focus is on jumping directly to epic levels and epic content. Observing that some people like heroic questing ignores the emphasis. The money is in epic questing. That is why the tools are there, the XP stones, the XP elixers (on sale now!), the iconic races.... It even colors the development cycle. ToEE is a L7/L30 quest pack. Is anyone really interested in the L7 version? Maybe from a nostalgia POV, but the player base is going to go directly to the L30 quest. What is the other project in development? Epic Vale, right. Why? Because that is the focus for the entire game -- epic. What, other than class balance debates, is the biggest frustration among players? I see it as the delay in raising level cap to L30.

My point is that whatever value there was in heroic content is gone. Even the old epic quests have no connection to the current game -- unless it is a VoN quest that gives lots of XP so that we can knock out another epic life or round out another epic destiny.

So, OP is correct, there's no value in the grind or low drop rates for those quests. Personally, I'd like to have a couple of those old items for a character or two. But the work to get them is not worth the value they bring to an end game build. And, when people are arguing that random generated loot is equal to or better than the ground out gear it makes the grind even less reasonable.

Best solution is to scrap all of the old system and to reinvent the entire crafting and loot system. That is too disruptive and, to be honest, too difficult given what Turbine's developers have shown themselves capable of over the past few years.

Next best solution is to increase the drop rates by a large factor. Changing from 1-2% to 10-15% drop rates would be the first step.

And, to those who complain that they had to grind so everyone else should grind as well -- which of those items are you presently using? I will tell you that I cannot remember the last time I saw an eSoS being used. CitW weapons -- given away for free in a box if you were here then, sometimes 2 of them if you were lucky due to the way the distribution went. So, really, who is harmed?

It is a different game now. Changing ransack and drop rates makes sense given the current state of the game.

[Bluegirl_Two]

You contradict yourself. Which is it? Insanely Monty Haul, or too difficult in favor of people with premium gear?
Because Monty Haul has a meaning which is just about exactly the opposite of it being either difficult to get good gear, or being difficult in general.

Monty Haul means getting lots of stuff for little or no work. I use it in the context of the ease with which random generated loot can be obtained to provide a character with a surplus of platinum. With a surplus of platinum a character can equip them self to handle every heroic quest on any difficulty and nearly any epic quest on normal or hard difficulties.

Being able to complete epic hard quests is not the measure of a character. It has never been the measure of a character in all of the years of the game. Neither has it been the measure of a character in the forums.

The measure of a character has always been the ability to complete elite quests. Before there was epic the standard was heroic elite. Since the introduction of epic the standard is epic elite. That is the measure of a character.

Random generated loot and auction house purchases will not get you epic elite ready. And the surplus of platinum available does not help matters at all because of the astral shard auction house. The genuinely valuable items end up there so the Monty Haul nature of the game is moot because the most desirable gear does not flow to the players who do not invest deeply with real money.

So, while it may appear to be a contradiction it is not. The game offers too much loot and yet is also too difficult for an under geared character at its highest level. And, because that highest level is the measure of character development the inaccessibility of some types of gear due to low drop rates and inordinate grind does create a problem.

Again you contradict yourself. So I feel compelled to ask: Which is it? Are the crafting systems unhelpful, or are they simply less useful than they might be because, in your own words, characters progress so fast and the loot they pick up while progressing so fast is so good that the crafting systems simply become much less meaningful?

It is both working together. Like the previous observation both seemingly contradictory elements are just opposite sides of the same problem.

And yet I'm running around doing at-level content with most of the items I'm wearing being a good 8+ levels below my own level. And I have no issues with Normal or Hard content, and the real challenge for me in Elite content isn't the monsters, although the casters can be brutal, it's the traps. I seem to be "keeping up", even with my sub-par gear. And I'm making no claims to be an awesome player. I learn new things almost daily about this game.

And most of us are running around doing above level content. The problem here is a myopic view of the game. What you are doing is not typical. I run elite content from level 1 and rapidly out level "at level" quests. I jump into content 2 or more levels above my character level and run those on elite to keep streaks alive. And, I do that because that is where the XP is. If I put my mind to it I can level a character through all of heroic in under 2 days -- although real life interferes most of the time. Epic is not much longer. And, I'm slow. A real power leveler can run L1-L25 in well under a week.

Look beyond yourself.

More contradiction. -Either- the game is easy because characters are overpowered -or- the players need to acquire the top end loot items to keep up. You can't have it both ways.

Actually, yes I can. Once more both statements are true. If you have B then A is true. If you do not have B then A is not true. A is true because of B. There is no contradiction. There is only a complete failure on your part when it comes to understanding.

Access to nothing? Every chest drops magic items. Platinum comes so fast that I'm happily working on my Cannith Crafting even though I could sell the unneeded items I pick up from all those chests on the AH or even to a vendor. But I still get enough platinum from melting them that it just doesn't matter. If I need something a vendor sells, I buy it. If I decide that my Level 5 gloves are becoming an embarrassment (and really, that's only me deciding that I maybe ought to have gloves which aren't able to be worn by a character 12 levels below my own, it doesn't impact my play), I can buy a more level appropriate pair for about 10k plat on the AH. The only things outside of my reach are a very few things players set the prices for on the AH. And as I said if I chose to play the AH market I could have the coins for those items as well. So it's my choice which limits me there, not the game environment.

So, here we have the essence of my first point -- that the game is Monty Haul and offers a surplus of platinum, that players can buy what they want, and (taken with your observation that you play at level normal/hard as your routine) the explanation that the game is still too hard without top end gear. Do you comprehend yet how what I have said is not contradictory but complimentary -- how the two things work together to create the current state of the game?

You contradict yourself on every single point you make and then state that others are ignoring realities? Those words you keep using, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

While the reference is cute and you no doubt feel clever for using it, it is not I who do not understand.

You have found contradictions because you are having trouble seeing how opposites work together to create a negative environment. The reality of the game is that players do not normally play at level on normal/hard. The reality of the game is that characters are judged not on their ability to complete normal quests but elite quests, not at level quests but above level quests, not heroic quests but elite quests.

There is no at level questing when the end game dungeons are L30. There is no "good enough" when the EE quest scales 20+ levels higher. There is only the best or failure.

My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.

So, those words I keep using -- they mean exactly what they say.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I took the original post to refer to old raid items, aka twink items. It is why I made such a point of referring to that other thread suggesting that the various crafting processes and old gear might deserve a place in the trash heap.

As to capping characters, Turbine's own system is 3 days for a reincarnate and that can be bypassed. With experience stones a player can true reincarnate from L20 without ever adventuring for their first or second life. With a tome of learning, XP potion and access to a guild ship they can jump to ~L18 without ever questing and reach L20 after running IQ on an elite streak (maybe adding the Web of Chaos chain if really pushed). That's 3 lives in about 6 hours of game play on a really bad day.

Epic levels with an XP stone and XP boosts is instant jump to ~L25. Final ~2.5 million XP to cap might take a day of hard work assuming a solid hard or elite streak and smart quest/raid choices. Also would require some cooperation from fellow players or a static group/active guild. Soloing it might take the whole 3 days.

So, in 60 days a person willing to spend the money and do the hard work could probably hit heroic completionist and be well on the way to epic completionist. Even without the monetary investment they could easily epic cap 2 to 3 times if they managed the time commitment.

IMO that is easily achievable but it is also the wrong question to be asking.

The right question is whether grinding for those old raid/twink items has any justification given the current state of the game. Or, considering that a player can purchase pretty much anything needed to make a character workable in all but EE content is the grindfest just a vestige of an outdated version of the game.

Is it time for a game-wide rebuilding to pull the various systems together into a consistent, integrated model that leads by several paths to alternative but equally viable end-game gear choices.

Interestingly enough, there is yet another thread touching upon these things. The current conversation there is on how grinding is defined and whether it is good or not. I suggest that months long grinding no longer fits the play pattern of DDO. Rapid character development, near instantaneous advancement to epic level -- these describe the current game.

We just finished XP bonus days and Otto's Boxes. The entire focus is on jumping directly to epic levels and epic content. Observing that some people like heroic questing ignores the emphasis. The money is in epic questing. That is why the tools are there, the XP stones, the XP elixers (on sale now!), the iconic races.... It even colors the development cycle. ToEE is a L7/L30 quest pack. Is anyone really interested in the L7 version? Maybe from a nostalgia POV, but the player base is going to go directly to the L30 quest. What is the other project in development? Epic Vale, right. Why? Because that is the focus for the entire game -- epic. What, other than class balance debates, is the biggest frustration among players? I see it as the delay in raising level cap to L30.

My point is that whatever value there was in heroic content is gone. Even the old epic quests have no connection to the current game -- unless it is a VoN quest that gives lots of XP so that we can knock out another epic life or round out another epic destiny.

So, OP is correct, there's no value in the grind or low drop rates for those quests. Personally, I'd like to have a couple of those old items for a character or two. But the work to get them is not worth the value they bring to an end game build. And, when people are arguing that random generated loot is equal to or better than the ground out gear it makes the grind even less reasonable.

Best solution is to scrap all of the old system and to reinvent the entire crafting and loot system. That is too disruptive and, to be honest, too difficult given what Turbine's developers have shown themselves capable of over the past few years.

Next best solution is to increase the drop rates by a large factor. Changing from 1-2% to 10-15% drop rates would be the first step.

And, to those who complain that they had to grind so everyone else should grind as well -- which of those items are you presently using? I will tell you that I cannot remember the last time I saw an eSoS being used. CitW weapons -- given away for free in a box if you were here then, sometimes 2 of them if you were lucky due to the way the distribution went. So, really, who is harmed?

It is a different game now. Changing ransack and drop rates makes sense given the current state of the game.

I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist. I don't think they would be nearly as successful doing that as a vet would, unless they had a vet walking them through the entire process. They wouldn't even know where the quests were, let alone know how to zerg them, or even which ones were worth doing for xp. The tr process alone would slow them down quite a bit, not knowing which heart of wood to get. You are talking about if a vet to the game decided to blow a paycheck on getting an alt completionist asap, not how a new player would play.

As far as the gear, there is no need to update any of it. Not every piece of gear can be best in slot, some of it is going to be junk. Much of that junk is named. Oh well. And increasing the drop rate make them more desirable, how?

[Bluegirl_Two]

I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist. I don't think they would be nearly as successful doing that as a vet would, unless they had a vet walking them through the entire process. They wouldn't even know where the quests were, let alone know how to zerg them, or even which ones were worth doing for xp. The tr process alone would slow them down quite a bit, not knowing which heart of wood to get. You are talking about if a vet to the game decided to blow a paycheck on getting an alt completionist asap, not how a new player would play.

Not saying that it did happen or that it does happen, just saying that it can happen and that, regardless, it is the wrong question.

As far as the gear, there is no need to update any of it. Not every piece of gear can be best in slot, some of it is going to be junk. Much of that junk is named. Oh well. And increasing the drop rate make them more desirable, how?

The gear and its utility is exactly the right question.

The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.

What is lost by not keeping old gear competitive is any reason to run old content. That is a present reality. While there are some people who will post insisting that they run everything on a regular basis, the reality is that those players are few and far between. At any hour on any server look to see how many of the old quests have LFMs running. It is rare unless it is a high XP quest. The reason for running old content in the current game is to get the XP (and, rarely, the favor).

When it is the favor it is one and done.

Now, not all of the old loot is junk -- just most of it. If it is junk then why run the quests at all? They give mediocre XP for the most part, don't really give anything beneficial in terms of favor rewards. Understand now why they do not get run?

For those very few still desirable items -- say an eSoS for those few builds that could use it -- the abysmally small drop rate is scarcely an incentive. No, people run eVoN for the XP not for the loot.

Bringing the loot into a coherent system that makes it relevant will revitalize the game. Making the loot more accessible to players will generate greater interest. Allowing players to be more comparable sooner will encourage new players. All of those are up sides that do not exist at this time.

Not that anyone but the players care. I still think Turbine is trying to kill the game and that WB only retains it in order to have a write-off against its profitable investments.

[AbyssalMage]

Ive gone vip, played for two months, bought your expacs (and spent over $100 on a game that is most def not f2p), only to see bugs, unforgiving mechanics, and bad game designs enough to make me wonder why I bothered, but the worst is this inane drop rate on named items with a 7 time ransack timer that blocks you from even trying again for a full week.

This is probably a hold over from when the game was pre-epic (U15?). Even then, I wouldn't consider the Named drop rate so low that you can't get what you want with average dedication. There are a few exceptions but most of them are not mandatory. Actually, U15-U22 has probably been the worst itemization periods and not because of drop rate percentages, although these compounded it.

I cannot be the only one who thinks this is utter garbage; No other game I can even think of has such a bad system in play for items that are crucial to so many builds and basic game play.

Well before the great "Ghostbaining" fiasco, itemization wasn't horrible. You could find equivalent or superior items in random generated loot. Many "end game builds" had a mixture of Named, Greensteel, and Random loot. That is no longer the case which is quite sad.

see now why new players are in rare supply here.

That would be marketing. Then again, I don't see WoW commercials anymore which I am happy about.

If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.

ER/TR'd twice now on one server, once on two other servers (4 times total) and haven't gotten all of the "end game gear" but didn't prevent me from playing.

Could I personally solo EE? No, because none of the builds I created were designed for EE.

Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo, well, is it any wonder that Turbine is having money issues and DDO heading on a downward slope?

Name one early raid you can't solo that has "must have loot."
Currently, the must have loot comes out of Epic Necro IV thanks to every piece having 2 Aug slots. Combining it with Deathwyrm/HH comprises the majority of every end game build I have seen.

In a way, this is one direction DDO has finally copied from other MMO's by obsoleting older content with newer content forcing players to buy the newest content or become obsolete. Ironically, it was why I left my last MMO (and no, I am not leaving anytime soon ).

I'm putting this out here so maybe someone somewhere will wake up and actually fix an issue thats obviously long been overlooked.

I love AD&D, but theres only so much I can take and still call what I'm doing fun.

Well, I am still having fun, even if I don't get the named items I've been farming don't show up.
Current list:

• Green Ioun Stone out of Shadow of a Doubt (Not a must have btw but I would like it).
• Goggles from White Dragon in Tor w/+3 Insight Bonus (This is one, of many, loot design mistakes, imho) which is BiS for most min/max builds.
• Epee from The Missing
• Ring of Spell Storing (kinda, but not really) from Desert

[Lonnbeimnech]

Not saying that it did happen or that it does happen, just saying that it can happen and that, regardless, it is the wrong question.



The gear and its utility is exactly the right question.

The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.

What is lost by not keeping old gear competitive is any reason to run old content. That is a present reality. While there are some people who will post insisting that they run everything on a regular basis, the reality is that those players are few and far between. At any hour on any server look to see how many of the old quests have LFMs running. It is rare unless it is a high XP quest. The reason for running old content in the current game is to get the XP (and, rarely, the favor).

When it is the favor it is one and done.

Now, not all of the old loot is junk -- just most of it. If it is junk then why run the quests at all? They give mediocre XP for the most part, don't really give anything beneficial in terms of favor rewards. Understand now why they do not get run?

For those very few still desirable items -- say an eSoS for those few builds that could use it -- the abysmally small drop rate is scarcely an incentive. No, people run eVoN for the XP not for the loot.

Bringing the loot into a coherent system that makes it relevant will revitalize the game. Making the loot more accessible to players will generate greater interest. Allowing players to be more comparable sooner will encourage new players. All of those are up sides that do not exist at this time.

Not that anyone but the players care. I still think Turbine is trying to kill the game and that WB only retains it in order to have a write-off against its profitable investments.

It is also a massive undertaking to update every item in the game and somehow make all of it desirable. It would still only be twink gear, so not worth bothering with on a capped toon, not worth farming on a tr project since you could cap and tr again in the time it takes to get one piece of gear that would be useful for some of those levels. Not worth bothering with on a first lifer since they really would outlevel the items quick.


As far as increasing the drop rate. Fast forward 1 month or 2, now everyone has their esos. NOW what is the incentive to farm von6? For example.

[AbyssalMage]

The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.

Actually this is fairly recent. Players who transferred from other MMO's expect that new content = best gear. Turbine listened to them instead of keeping their business model which brought these players to DDO. It's actually the industry standard to have such a marketing strategy. Too bad, it destroys games. DDO was refreshing in that Turbine did everything their own way and was successful despite the industry saying it wasn't possible.

Maybe they are working back in that direction now that level 30 cap is coming "Soon(TM)." They have lots of loot to retool once that happens and a random itemization list to overhaul if that is the case. Easily 2+ updates to get it correct. Its a "wait and see" for me and most importantly, "enjoy the ride."

[Bluegirl_Two]

It is also a massive undertaking to update every item in the game and somehow make all of it desirable. It would still only be twink gear, so not worth bothering with on a capped toon, not worth farming on a tr project since you could cap and tr again in the time it takes to get one piece of gear that would be useful for some of those levels. Not worth bothering with on a first lifer since they really would outlevel the items quick.

IIRC I've already touched on this. Not only would it be massive but, IMO, also well outside of the capabilities of DDO's current crop of developers. So, let's recognize that the idea of a comprehensive gear pass that restructured the end loot to fit into multi-path crafting systems and led to end-game worthy loot is almost entirely wishful thinking.

But, I would not just work on a system to produce twink gear. I would look at the different crafting strategies and develop full story lines around them. House Cannith would have a story line that starts with low level gear. That gear would become an ingredient to mid level gear. That, in turn, high level heroic gear. And, in turn, that gear would turn into low, medium and high level epic gear. I would follow a similar path with giant crafted gear and that would be separate from dragon crafted or quori crafted gear. All told there might be 5 or 6 different paths each leading from low level heroic thru high level epic gear development.

And then, I would make the different gear sets mostly incompatible with one another and tied to favor. One pale master might equip themselves with dragon crafted gear and gain some particular edge while a different pale master might equip themselves with Cannith crafted gear in order to obtain some different advantage. Characters would be end-game capable but also different from one another depending on which crafting patron supported them (or which master they served).

So, there would be no twink gear per se -- each step along the story line would enable the gear to update as the character advanced.

As far as increasing the drop rate. Fast forward 1 month or 2, now everyone has their esos. NOW what is the incentive to farm von6? For example.

Alright, this is the more likely scenario. Turbine is most likely to do nothing at all but, if something were to happen, this is the one that is more probable.

I would suggest that everyone will never have their eSoS because the game population is not stagnant. There are always players dropping out and players joining in. So I would argue that while the initial rate of VoN questing would drop it would be no worse than the current rate and, for lower XP quests, likely higher.

VoN is a bit of an exception since 3 of the better epic XP quests are in the VoN chain.

As to the other quests, drop rates did increase but without any noticeable increase in LFMs. That suggests that even as twink gear the drop rates are still too low to incentivize the player base.

And, presuming that the gear is twink gear anyway, what difference would it make if it had a higher drop rate or became a 5th/10th/20th completion guarantee? We have that model in a lot of quests. How would it matter if it were applied to all of the quests/raids that still have old style upgradable loot systems?

[Bluegirl_Two]

Actually this is fairly recent.

No, it has pretty much been this way since DDO went from a module system to an update system with every new quest release. Definitely much longer being as described than not.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Name one early raid you can't solo that has "must have loot."

The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.

The "must have loot" part is somewhat subjective. Given the number of LFMs I see for Shroud I'm guessing players still find items that they want to craft. I'm not aware of many people that would turn down an eSoS presuming they are running a melee-centric build. And a Head of Good Fortune is still a useful trinket for many characters.

Without getting into a piddling contest on what constitutes "must have loot" I think it is fairly obvious that there are raids that the preponderance of the community cannot solo.

[count_spicoli]

Ha ha is this dude for real? In a time when loot is easier to get in ddo then it ever was. The time of every 3 completions named items will drop in reward list and lower settings reap the same rewards as more difficult ones. OP must have come from neverwinter or Diablo or something where the game is spoon fed. Earn your stuff like the rest of us did. I

[Fluffib]

If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.

I have never seen a heroic leveling group reject a player because they didn't have named items or stat tomes, and I have never heard anyone else say they couldn't get to level 21 without named items or stat tomes. When I first started playing this game 8 months ago, I made it to level 21 without stat tomes, without named items, without knowing half the quests or what an "epic" quest was or that there was a world beyond Stormreach. Keep trying, I think you'll make it to level 21 just fine and get into a few groups along the way.

[Kompera_Oberon]

I run elite content from level 1 and rapidly out level "at level" quests. I jump into content 2 or more levels above my character level and run those on elite to keep streaks alive. And, I do that because that is where the XP is. If I put my mind to it I can level a character through all of heroic in under 2 days -- although real life interferes most of the time. Epic is not much longer. And, I'm slow. A real power leveler can run L1-L25 in well under a week.

Look beyond yourself.

Take your own advice. A f2p player can't even get into an Elite level dungeon without running it twice before. Once on Normal and then once on Hard.

If your entire position is based on the premise that everyone play the game as a VIP or have prior lives already under their belt as a new player, you've already lost any argument about looking beyond yourself.

So, here we have the essence of my first point -- that the game is Monty Haul and offers a surplus of platinum, that players can buy what they want, and (taken with your observation that you play at level normal/hard as your routine) the explanation that the game is still too hard without top end gear. Do you comprehend yet how what I have said is not contradictory but complimentary -- how the two things work together to create the current state of the game?

No, all I see is you reiterating a completely contradictory position. Repetition doesn't make you any less silly for arguing both sides of the coin at the same time. Either the game is Monty Haul and gives too much plat and items, making play easy, or play is too hard. Those are not "complementary" at all, they are contradictory.

The reality of the game is that players do not normally play at level on normal/hard. The reality of the game is that characters are judged not on their ability to complete normal quests but elite quests, not at level quests but above level quests, not heroic quests but elite quests.

And now you are interjecting a completely subjective "judgement" into the discussion.

I believe that the reality of the game is that most people solo. I've seen that in the lack of takers to my LFG posts, in the comments of my Guild mates, and in the comments by players on this forum. If you are playing solo you are only being judged by yourself.

If you are only talking about people running raids at Epic levels, I can't contradict you since I'm only L17. But the number of posts I see here and on Youtube showing people solo Epic content suggests that things might not be so different at Epic levels.

I do expect to have to group for Epic content. I don't expect to be "judged" by anyone for my gear at that point. Getting the gear is the only reason for being there, besides the experience of running the dungeon. Anyone who expects a fresh L20 to already have that gear is simply jaded from their many past lives.

And if I have to grind those raids for my gear, that's just a part of the game. But no one has to grind for gear from L1-L17 at least, and probably not through L20.

My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.

Well, thank you for agreeing with me like that! You've just stated that you have no troubles with 99% of the content, and you only have issues with that last 1% because you haven't put in the time or had the luck to find the gear you need. None of which contradicts anything I've said at all: That my experience so far is that I can run any Normal or Hard dungeon with no problems at all and without any need to grind for gear, and only need to skip Elite content due to traps. Which I suppose better gear might ameliorate.

I think this discussion is done once you make a concession like that. Thanks for your time!

[kanordog]

If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.

No, You don't.
I already had 3 ranger lives when at the 6th life I finally pulled a silver longbow. (Not counting other 1st, 2nd and 3rd life alts that never pulled that bow!)
I haven't used it yet and I never needed it, I got by easily without it.

On the same life (again, with help of alts) I finally made my first epic (shard+seal+scroll) item! An Epic Chimera's fang! Totally outdated but I still love it because I needed 6 lives (plus alts) to get it!

And I will run a melee arti life (possibly after my 40th life) when I finally will pull this:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Disciplinator

OP,



I have been playing since 2006 and I FINALLY managed to put all the ingredients together for an ESOS about 4 months ago. I really wanted one, but I didn't need one and even managed to enjoy the game without it.

Congrats man!

[AbyssalMage]

The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.

With the exception of eSoS, none of the gear that drops in any of those raids are "Must Haves" which references the OP's message that they contain such items. Even, eSoS has become more of a novelty, mythical if you will, item.

Shroud can be solo'd (with very specific builds) none of which requires Greensteel items. Reavers Fate can be solo'd by most, thanks mostly to ED's and puzzle solvers.

The "must have loot" part is somewhat subjective. Given the number of LFMs I see for Shroud I'm guessing players still find items that they want to craft. I'm not aware of many people that would turn down an eSoS presuming they are running a melee-centric build. And a Head of Good Fortune is still a useful trinket for many characters.

I agree its very subjective and the process of TR'ing increases the likelihood that these items remain relevant for awhile. But the definition for "relevant" and "must have" are very distinct. "Must have" describes any item/feat/enhancement/twist that is needed in order to provide recognizable contribution to the group in the most challenging content, which is currently EE Necro IV, HH, Deathwyrm, and to a (alot) lesser extent 3BC. It (currently) also has a disproportionate effect on DC casters than melee with Ranged now falling somewhere in the middle.

Without getting into a piddling contest on what constitutes "must have loot" I think it is fairly obvious that there are raids that the preponderance of the community cannot solo.

There are many raids the community cannot solo, do to "team" dynamics built into them to prevent such a scenario from occurring. The argument was that older Raids contain items that are "must have" status which just isn't true; "end game," if you define that as level 28 (and "Soon(TM)" to be level 30) content.

[Dreppo]

And I will run a melee arti life (possibly after my 40th life) when I finally will pull this:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Disciplinator

Disciplinator is actually a fairly easy item to get, since it drops in VON6 (the most frequently run raid in the game for obvious reasons). It's BtC, so usually people will put it up for roll if they can't use it themselves.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Take your own advice. A f2p player can't even get into an Elite level dungeon without running it twice before. Once on Normal and then once on Hard.

So, you missed entirely the part in the original post where he mentions being VIP didn't you. It was the first words of the original message:

Ive gone vip

But, never mind that. Let's not let reality or facts interfere with your skewed view of the truth. Let's not let the abundance of build posts that start out with "I'm building for normal content and need your advice" demonstrate the complete totality of your misperception. Instead, let's just continue with the insular perspective that because you choose to under perform that this is the highest ambition of others and that any aspiration to do better should meet with failure because you fail.

The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

[Bluegirl_Two]

With the exception of eSoS....

I said I'm not getting into a piddling contest on what is or isn't "must have loot." How you define it or how I define it can be miles apart and we will both be right because we are defining it for ourselves.

What is relevant is what OP might consider must have loot.

As to what can or cannot be soloed, when we start talking grossly over level and specific builds it starts to shift the dynamics of the conversation. You are right to note that raids that have group required mechanisms don't really belong in the conversation -- but it was not unfair to include them since you did not define parameters.

Similarly, it isn't unfair of you to mention specific builds.

But, I'm certain that the intent in the discussion is to discuss what pretty much any character could or could not do. And, in that regard, it is highly misleading to suggest that most or all early raids can be soloed.

[AbyssalMage]

No, it has pretty much been this way since DDO went from a module system to an update system with every new quest release. Definitely much longer being as described than not.

Been playing DDO for awhile; not as long as some, longer than others. No expansion from U10-U15 had BiS items for any of the builds being posted at the time (except quiver and eSoS). People would debate what should go in each slot and it invariably came down to player preference because gear was "better" uniformed. U15 broke that tradition and it has remained so until fairly recently (U21) when they reverted back to the original loots system which has infuriated the "elite" players. On a nostalgia note, didn't realize they only had the crappy loot from U15 through U21, I guess I better apologize to the item developers.

Sorry Item Developers, I have been so unhappy with itemization I didn't even realize you did something that was beneficial and give you credit for it. Thank you

p.s. We need to work on the power creep of named items/itemization now.