whats the point of ransack and =< 1% drop rates?

[Thrudh]

Now, maybe we're on different servers but the clear majority over time really is EE for epic quests just as it is HE for heroic quests.

(1) Heroic elite is 60% plus of LFMs... Heroic elite is very different from epic elite... Or are you saying one needs top-notch gear and multiple past lives to handle heroic elite... Is that your position?
(2) Ton of epic hard or even epic normal for xp (you see a lot of wiz-king or spies or VON 3 on epic elite?)
(3) Ton of epic hard for gear (almost every epic Orchard LFM is epic hard).
(4) The main epic elites I see are for sagas, and those are the lower-level "easy" epic elites (Eveningstar, GH)

I would say on Thelanis, the LFM panel is barely 2% "top-level epic elite", and 10% "lower-level epic elite".

So your statement that the game is 100% about "epic elite" is just plain wrong. These are facts.. You are the one who said look at the LFM panel as proof that the game is 100% about epic elite.

[Vulkoorex]

Uh...topic is ransack.

[Bluegirl_Two]

(1) Heroic elite is 60% plus of LFMs... Heroic elite is very different from epic elite... Or are you saying one needs top-notch gear and multiple past lives to handle heroic elite... Is that your position?
(2) Ton of epic hard or even epic normal for xp (you see a lot of wiz-king or spies or VON 3 on epic elite?)
(3) Ton of epic hard for gear (almost every epic Orchard LFM is epic hard).
(4) The main epic elites I see are for sagas, and those are the lower-level "easy" epic elites (Eveningstar, GH)

I would say on Thelanis, the LFM panel is barely 2% "top-level epic elite", and 10% "lower-level epic elite".

So your statement that the game is 100% about "epic elite" is just plain wrong. These are facts.. You are the one who said look at the LFM panel as proof that the game is 100% about epic elite.

Haven't even discussed past lives, but thanks for extending the conversation.

Will say that from a new player's perspective having gear appears necessary for heroic elite. My position is that if you want to elite streak while below quest level that best or near best gear is very useful. Running heroic elite at level (character level = normal quest level + 2) is much easier when you have respectable gear. But, I don't normally bother worrying about gear in heroic except when running below quest level (character level < normal quest level + 2).

Most Wiz-King, Spies, VoN3 I see is EE, yes. Virtually all VoN5/6 is EE with rarely an EH 5 with EE 6. Since most of the time I can solo Wiz-King/Spies/VoN3 on EN or EH (and my impression is that most others can as well) it sort of seems unnecessary to drop below EE.

Orchard is typically EH and that is because of the risk/reward factor and time.

Sagas are typically as you describe, EE and mostly GH but significant amounts of easier Eveningstar.

That is on Orien.

My observation about epic elite is that it is the focus. 100% would be an exaggeration and I really don't recall saying that. But it is the focus and the measuring stick of success.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Uh...topic is ransack.

True, but derails are pretty normal and, in this case, the derail does have a bearing on the topic.

But, like most topics that contain more than a page or two, you will have to filter through the side bars and derails to find the discussion that is on topic.

This is so common that I have considered starting a topic with the specific request that all responses stay non-argumentative and on topic just to see how long it took for them to become argumentative and off topic.

Frankly, I don't think it can be done on any subject that is highly emotive. And that ignores personalities. There are a few of us who are going to argue blue just because the other person argued red. Except for fairly simple topics that always has the potential to develop into a wild chase down a spurious rabbit hole.

Ransack and drop rate is highly charged. People have trouble understanding why it should matter, why waiting months for useless gear should bother players, why players shouldn't be forced to endure the same pain and agony that they went through to get things, etc. And, they have trouble seeing the interrelationships among various discussions or how one aspect of the game affects and informs a different aspect.

In this case the presumptive goal state of being able to compete favorably in elite content affects and informs about why ransack and drop rates matter to people. Without understanding the underlying drivers within the game it is difficult to understand why a player finds ransack or drop rates to be an inhibition or to grasp why they perceive those to be factors in players not choosing DDO.

Understanding that best gear at various points along a character's life greatly enables elite level questing and compensates for build choices and player experience helps explain why new players farm for gear that experienced players view as obsolete. Understanding that Turbine actively pushes players towards epic content through blatant actions such as Otto's Boxes, XP bonus days, XP boosts, reduced prices of heart woods, reincarnation timers and even iconic characters helps define the existing culture that new players encounter and further informs us about why elite and epic questing is seen as the standard measure of character and player success.

So, while separately these things are indeed derails taken within the context of the discussion they are in fact valuable insights into why ransack and drop rates are so objectionable and such emotive subjects.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Note that now you're talking about "top-level" EE... lower-level epic elites don't count, right??

I've always been talking about end game, so in that sense lower level EE don't count. That is right.

Go back and read some of my other replies -- including to you. There is a material difference between a base 20 quest run on EE and a base 24 quest on EE. And there is even more of a difference when the base quest level is 28.

And when I am looking at a character and planning their eventual "final" look I'm not using what is needed to run low level epics on EE as the standard. Neither are most of those who post builds or ask for build advice.

What I am looking at is highest level epics on EE and what impacts my build decisions is the probability of success in those quests. Can I solo? If no, can I expect to be accepted into a group? If I get accepted into a group can I make a difference and contribute or will I be a drain on resources and make completion difficult -- or worse, cause failure?

So, yes, everything is about that top N% of the game. And yes, that is what I think is implicit in a new player complaint about ransack and drop rate. Because I believe that their perception is predisposed to expect elite for whatever the content is and to build towards being able to complete EE on the top end content.

And that means that yes, we do need to consider the impact that has on a player 2 months in because ideally we want to retain that player. So we should give heed to his concern and give credence to his observation that a mechanic does not serve to attract or retain new players.

When I couple that with the observation that the loot in question is obsolete anyway I have to wonder whether it makes any sense at all to retain ransack and drop rates as they are. The underlying gist of those who are suggesting that things should remain as they are really consists of 2 parts: 1) I had to grind and 2) the loot is worthless anyway.

My counter is that 1) if the loot is worthless how can it possibly matter and 2) just because you had to grind doesn't mean that grinding is good. To this last point I would add that grinding has always been a hot topic and mostly with negative postings. I have never seen a post explaining how or why grinding actually helps increase player numbers. The best argument for grinding has always been, "every game has it."

But that totally ignores whether it is good or not.

Ransack is a tool that I seriously doubt has much positive impact on the game. Extremely low drop rates is a tool that no longer has much validity if the loot is in fact obsolete. And arguing that others should grind because we had to is just being petty.

[Thrudh]

And when I am looking at a character and planning their eventual "final" look I'm not using what is needed to run low level epics on EE as the standard. Neither are most of those who post builds or ask for build advice.

You know the funny thing? People who care that much about achieving the "perfect" build spend a lot of time TRing because they want that last 5% of power from past-lives, even if it means grinding until their eyeballs bleed...

So they spend very little time actually playing that "final" build... And when they are finally done grinding, they usually start complaining the game is too easy, and there's nothing to do and end up quitting (the game, not the boards... they never leave the boards!)

I build my guys for heroic elite and soloing epic hard, and grouping epic elite... When I get a character to cap, I usually switch to a different character and TR him...

What I am looking at is highest level epics on EE and what impacts my build decisions is the probability of success in those quests. Can I solo? If no, can I expect to be accepted into a group? If I get accepted into a group can I make a difference and contribute or will I be a drain on resources and make completion difficult -- or worse, cause failure?

That's fine for you...

So, yes, everything is about that top N% of the game.

For you... Not for everyone. Not even a majority... Very few people play the top 1% of the game. Especially 2 months in... The OP is talking about heroic elite, and how if he has a +3 item at level 7 instead of a +4 item, the game is impossible to play.

When I couple that with the observation that the loot in question is obsolete anyway I have to wonder whether it makes any sense at all to retain ransack and drop rates as they are. The underlying gist of those who are suggesting that things should remain as they are really consists of 2 parts: 1) I had to grind and 2) the loot is worthless anyway.

I have been completely side-tracked by your assertions that the game is only about top-level epic elite (1% of the game), and the OP assertions that named gear is necessary to complete heroic elite.

I don't really care about ransack... I think it might be a bad idea to remove it just because the OCD is very high in MMO players, and too many of them WILL grind until they quit the game from absolute burn-out... Maybe increasing the drop rate on old stuff would be okay.

I don't think new players should grind because I had to grind, nor do I think the loot is worthless.

My point is the loot is not required... That's all I'm saying...

You deride my comment that 60% DPS is good enough... Well, go back 6 months... DPS has doubled since the bard/paladin/barb changes... So 6 months ago, most characters had 50% of the max possible DPS we have today (and we were more squishy)... yet we managed to complete end-game epic elite quests... smart tactical group play still works... You don't HAVE to zerg into a mob of monsters and just cleave until everything is dead. Sure, the max DPS players finish epic elite faster, but so what? They're bored out of their minds... I say, building that perfect build is a complete waste of time... You spend 90% of the time working on that last 10% of power, which you don't need, and in fact, just makes the game more boring.

My point is true... One does not NEED the max build, the max number of past-lives, the max gear to do well in this game...

My point is also true about end-game epic elite... Almost no one is playing it... Even the uber-elites spend most of their time TRing... I very rarely play end-game epic elite... Many of us players are happy if we can solo epic hard, and do okay in a group on epic elite... Very few people think their character is gimp unless they can solo epic elite.

I would add that grinding has always been a hot topic and mostly with negative postings. I have never seen a post explaining how or why grinding actually helps increase player numbers.

Well if you want an explanation.... what's the proper amount of grind? Should players get the best gear in every quest they run, the first time they run it? Would that be better? Would that make the game more fun? Or more boring? What's the magic number between the two bad choices of always and never?

[blerkington]

It's also a bad moment when newer players lecture veterans....

I am not lying when I say having a +4 item instead of a +5 item will not make or break my build, or stop me from completing questlines, or in general stop me from playing or having fun at ALL.

Hi,

If you think lecturing people is bad, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it yourself.

Personally, I have more time for new players who are getting frustrated with the way the game works, even if it leads them to do a bit of uninformed whining, than I do for experienced players who use threads like this as a soapbox rather than offering help.

The OP may be overestimating the value of named loot, but at this point we don't really have any of the particulars. Assuming that this wasn't all just an exercise in provoking forum drama, I would like to see a list of these difficult to obtain items which caused the first post to appear.

I'm pretty sure these problems, if they are actually real, could be solved by a bit of assistance from the community, whether in the form of advice or donated gear.

Thanks.

[Kompera_Oberon]

If we were face to face I would tell you to look at me and tell me if you think I'm a new player. I have multiple accounts dating back to within 6 months of the game's public release. What I can do is not what most new players can do. Your own assessment of what you do demonstrates that you are not in my league when it comes to questing. Jumping from what I am able to do to a generalization that 99% of the game is easy is pure fantasy on your part.

First off, you're trying to introduce length of play as a factor which supports your position. This is a flawed position.
I'll remind you that a great many people other than myself have said in this very thread that you are just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If you rely upon play length as a validator then you have already lost this discussion. So then you'll concede, right? Or perhaps you'll now decide that this isn't the best determiner of right and wrong.

But let's let you run on, and we'll figure out who is in a pure fantasy.

Your citations of your multiple accounts have no relevance here. If they did, then anyone with a few dozen accounts would be in your eyes a more valid source. And yet creating a few dozen accounts is a free action which says nothing about the validity of the opinions of the person who created those accounts. So really, is someone with a few dozen accounts the bar by which you weigh valid comments? Or maybe do you have some other bar? And might you care to share that with us, since you've left it rather vague with your references to account age and multiple accounts and etc.

You've described what you can do in exacting detail. You made no distinctions for gear required for the 99% of the content, other then your admission that "almost" all of the top level content didn't require top level gear. You said simply that you had no problems running 99% of that content without any need for great gear. These are you words. You can retract them if you like, you can say that you were in error, but as they stand you've stated that 99% of the game content is trivially easy regardless of gear.

These are your words. I have quoted them in this thread.

According to this listing of quests there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.

****, this seems to be a quite different statement than your earlier assertion that "My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below." Would you now like to change your position on this? Admit that you were wrong? Come on, it's not that hard. When you argue against yourself as much as you do it must be easy to admit your failings, since arguing both sides of the coin means that you'll be wrong 100% of the time. Go ahead! Say it!

[AbyssalMage]

One of these is not like the others. The turbulent epee from Missing has to have at least a 50% drop rate. Are you hitting the right chest? It's that one in the hideout, surrounded by water.

Yeah, the one in the Swiftfoot Hideout. Received 1 x Epee in 30 chests (possibly 40 but I would actually have to do the math). Ransacked once, run daily before hand (just to the chest, not completing adventure).

[AbyssalMage]

We are about to get a new update. How many of you have been on Lamannia running the new content? You are aware that some subset of the player population has done just that, right?

You are aware that many of those players are going to ransack the quest within the first 48 hours (using stockpiled raid timer bypasses if necessary). If you pay attention to any release you will see that as a regular pattern. And, you'll notice that it happens mostly in guild and well established raid groups involving the same group of players.

What you will also notice is that somewhere between 48 and 72 hours after release there will be a down time and a hot fix. What you might not notice is that there will be a noticeable decrease in drop rate afterwards.

Now, I don't know if that is just forum legend or if it really happens. What I do know is that there will be postings complaining about it as there have been following almost every other release.

Part legend, party truth. Developers get busy and forget that they increased Drop chances on the preview server. My guess is they have to code each item individually. It doesn't always happen though but when it does, its a "shark frenzy." So you have a valid point on the first few days of a release and why their is a patch on Monday Morning after a release.

Essentially what happens is the haves get and the have nots don't. It has always been that way -- maybe more openly so since Lamannia went to a public server.

Those who like the grind, sure. Then come moaning on the forums that they have nothing left to get cause they did the above "said" thing.

So, I don't think that ransack penalty even matters. I don't think it influences any player behavior at all -- at least not in a positive and game enriching way. All that it does is create negativism directed at DDO over a mechanism that delays and hinders players from completing items -- items that most people in this thread dismiss as obsolete and irrelevant anyway.

No, the better answer is to just remove ransack. The alternative is to increase drop rates so that ransack becomes a negligible factor. I prefer the alternative. But either or both is probably appropriate at this point in the game.

It actually looks like U25 items are actually a downgrade from U23/U24 items which I am fine with as long as the Min. Level are appropriate for the risk (i.e. useful for ER/TR lives).

Increasing drop rates in raids, especially CitW, I would be fine with. It would minimize the grandeur of Raid Bypass Timers but not obsolete them.

A blanket increase in drop rates on group content I would not support. As far as removing Ransack, I don't know. I see why it is so appealing to remove and like my original post, feel its a legacy code from the time when the level cap was 20 and lower. Further, your insistence that it is a good idea while being so offensive towards others makes me want to just say its a bad idea.

[Bluegirl_Two]

First off, you're trying to introduce length of play as a factor which supports your position. This is a flawed position.

<snip>

Your citations of your multiple accounts have no relevance here.

Number of accounts is irrelevant, length of time playing the game is not. Experience and familiarity with quests enables me to do things that other players with less experience cannot. I was in a quest a couple of weeks back when my character started to get into trouble because of the number of mobs. I moved to a safe space where the mobs were channeled and could not come at me except 1 at a time.

My son walked in and was watching the game. He sometimes plays. He asked how it was I knew that the spot was there because in all of his time running the game he'd never seen it used.

Those types of things are what experience gets you.

Elsewhere in the forums is a thread about preparing for dungeons. It asks about harbor quests and the problems with kobold shaman and their lightning bolts. Experience lets a player know that the number and placement of those mobs is always the same, what the animation telling you that it is time to move looks like, how quickly you need to react.

The relevant part is the experience.

These are your words. I have quoted them in this thread.

Actually, you have deliberately misquoted me and attributed words to me that I never said. Here is what I said, quoted exactly from the posts where I said them:

My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.

According to this listing of quests there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.

Let's look at the first quote: EN or below, check; most EH, check.

Now the second quote: EN or below, check; most EH, check.

Perhaps you are having trouble understanding how that relates to EE. Having stopped with being able to handle most EH implies that EE is typically beyond my ability. It doesn't seem necessary to state that. Distinguishing that the character is almost entirely worthless in later EE implies that he is not that way in earlier EE.

You made no distinctions for gear required for the 99% of the content, other then your admission that "almost" all of the top level content didn't require top level gear. You said simply that you had no problems running 99% of that content without any need for great gear. These are you words. You can retract them if you like, you can say that you were in error, but as they stand you've stated that 99% of the game content is trivially easy regardless of gear.

I have just finished rereading all of my posts in this thread. I never used the 99%/1% words. The first reference in the thread to 99/1% comes from you:

And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

And I replied,

Let's clear this up. I do not agree with you. I appreciate you trying to make it seem that way. but I've said nothing of the sort. Most quests have 4 difficulty settings. That means nearly 25% of all quests are elite. And, running elite quests at or below level is in fact gear dependent -- which is what I have consistently said. The addition of greater challenge only makes that near 25% of content even more gear dependent than it already was.

You then said,

If my figure of 99% is off by much I'll be very surprised.

Two points here -- first, it was your figure and not mine. I cannot stress this enough. You have routinely said that those were my words and yet you clearly take credit for it being your figure.

Second,

According to this listing of quests there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.

Surprise!

At this point you have become that monster that lives under the bridge. You came out making all sorts of accusations, all of which have been shown to be wrong. You completely misrepresent what I've said but even when hacked into dozens of pieces you come crawling back together to make even more outrageous and unfounded claims.

Your most cogent argument is that others disagree with me and that you do too. However,

... ok, so I agree with you for the most part that frustrating grinds are frustrating. I get that. But I found that was the case with every other MMO I've played too, especially WoW, so I'm not really sure what the problem is with DDO.

As someone who spend 80+ runs to get an sos, 4,5 years to get the shard on his main i feel your pain.
One of the many reasons to tr is to bypass that painful grind of gearing up, only to replace it for a painful exp grind....

I will say without reservation that the general perspective of the original post is right on target.

DDO's loot system is frustrating for new players; I learn that every time I start on a new server. There should be way more semi decent gear as static rewards like the eveningstar/wheelon/storm horn items on lower levels.

I have been completely side-tracked by your assertions that the game is only about top-level epic elite (1% of the game), and the OP assertions that named gear is necessary to complete heroic elite.

I don't really care about ransack... I think it might be a bad idea to remove it just because the OCD is very high in MMO players, and too many of them WILL grind until they quit the game from absolute burn-out... Maybe increasing the drop rate on old stuff would be okay.

Now, if this doesn't clear things up for you then let's look at the original subject of the thread -- ransack and drop rate.

I do understand, as Thrudh observes, that some of the discussion side tracks us from the main topic. But what is evident is that while we can have disagreements about what is easy or hard, what forum focus or build focus is, and even about what players are doing live in game, the question of ransack and drop rate and the associated grind is recognized by others as well.

My assertion is that my experience permits me to do things new players cannot. I'm pretty sure that several of these others will mention experience as part of their reply.

My assertion is that even with my experience that I twink low level characters before starting any quest. I'm pretty sure that several of these others will mention twink gear -- although the best of them will say that random generated loot is good enough at early levels.

My assertion is that for a new player the lack of experience and the lack of twink gear creates a negative impression because for them the game is, in fact, too hard. I'm pretty sure that several of these others tacitly agree with that, which explains why they advise running quests on normal or hard settings instead of elite.

If you look into the ways that these others agree and disagree with me you'll see that the amount of disagreement is far less than it appears.

It is only you who seems intent on arguing just to argue. Even when shown to be wrong you insist on coming back and making the same false statements time and time again.

Maybe it is time to stop hacking you to pieces and to bring out the fires of moderation.

[Bluegirl_Two]

I build my guys for heroic elite and soloing epic hard, and grouping epic elite...

I get that.

I also get that the forums don't normally reflect that notion in build threads so that new players coming to and reading the forums easily fall into the mindset that they should build for epic elite.

The truth is that there are several more sane voices in the forums that advocate for a less narrow point of view and I am often among those, as you are. It is also true that those more sane voices often get shut down or ignored in those same threads.

None of that alters the importance of understanding the impact or minimizes how it affects a new player, like the OP, when they see the grind that ransack and low drop rates brings to the game.

Neither does it invalidate OP's observation that those things are a turnoff to new players.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Increasing drop rates in raids, especially CitW, I would be fine with. It would minimize the grandeur of Raid Bypass Timers but not obsolete them.

A blanket increase in drop rates on group content I would not support. As far as removing Ransack, I don't know. I see why it is so appealing to remove and like my original post, feel its a legacy code from the time when the level cap was 20 and lower. Further, your insistence that it is a good idea while being so offensive towards others makes me want to just say its a bad idea.

Fair enough. I'm abrasive, I know it. Even when I try not to be it seems that I am. Pretty much with everyone (with one obvious exception) I've tried to be conciliatory and understanding in the thread. I guess I should add that to the reasons why people support no change.

I will challenge you to revisit your opposition to a blanket increase in drop rates.

Functionally, is there any meaningful difference in effect if drop rates increase but ransack remains when compared to retaining drop rates but removing ransack? To me it appears that the only difference is the number of times that you need to run the quest.

Even if I take the position staked out by others that the gear is not obsolete and worthless (and note, that this is being put forth by Thrudh who also says that random generated loot is just fine -- most of the others have asserted that the gear is obsolete, including you IIRC), what difference does it make if a player gets an item in a smaller number of runs?

Take into account OP's complaint that the number of runs is a hindrance to new player recruitment and retention. Then put that in context of reducing player populations.

Is opposing increased drop rates really the rational choice? Or, within the context of older loot, is the better choice to go ahead and encourage success by increasing the chances for the older gear.

Note that I'm not totally on board with both increasing drop rates and removing ransack. My preference is increasing drop rates and retaining ransack. But, presuming that the incentive for doing either is to attract and to retain new players, which is the better choice and why?

[Bluegirl_Two]

But, presuming that the incentive for doing either is to attract and to retain new players, which is the better choice and why?

I did not follow through on this in my previous post because I felt that I would lose some of what I wanted to say there. So, I'm repeating myself now in order to continue a tangential thought.

It seems to me that there are 5 choices:

1) What Turbine will do -- unfathomable but probably 2, although it could be to change some and leave others as they already have done.
2) Make no change, leave ransack and drop rates as they currently are.
3) Remove ransack, leave drop rates.
4) Leave ransack, change drop rates.
5) Remove ransack, change drop rates.

While conceding 1, my real question (revealed in the quote) is which of the other 4 choices is best and why?

If historic data is correct and the chance to pull an item is actually =<1% (and, BTW, that is what the historic data indicates for an individual) then leaving things as they are means on average 100 days and 100 repeats to get any item. The reason is because the ransack factor drops the loot level of a chest and rapidly puts the various ingredients outside of the loot table.

Removing ransack and leaving drop rates reduces the number of days but not the number of quest repeats. A player no longer needs to wait on ransack to reset but they still have a =<1% chance at the pull so the on average number of runs is still 100.

Leaving ransack and increasing drop rates changes the number of days and runs required based on the change to drop rate. An increase to ~5% means 20 days and 20 repeats. That dovetails fairly well with the idea of 20th completion rewards.

Removing ransack and increasing drop rates reduces the number of days and sets the number of repeats to whatever the new drop rate produces.

IMO the current process clearly has little going for it. I think Turbine recognizes that and that players recognize that -- which is why we had a drop rate increase in a lot of the content.

I think that running a quest 100 times to get twink gear that may or may not be obsolete is excessive.

My feeling is that reducing then number of runs and also making it possible to do all in the same day just makes a mockery of the whole system.

So, to me, the rational change is to retain ransack and to up the drop rate.

Now, whether that should be from =<1% to 5% or 10% or 15% or even 2% is a separate debate. I can see that the bigger numbers are probably too much. But, with the comparability to 20th reward lists I think that a strong case can and should be made for increasing drop rates to ~5%.

[Thrudh]

I did not follow through on this in my previous post because I felt that I would lose some of what I wanted to say there. So, I'm repeating myself now in order to continue a tangential thought.

It seems to me that there are 5 choices:

1) What Turbine will do -- unfathomable but probably 2, although it could be to change some and leave others as they already have done.
2) Make no change, leave ransack and drop rates as they currently are.
3) Remove ransack, leave drop rates.
4) Leave ransack, change drop rates.
5) Remove ransack, change drop rates.

While conceding 1, my real question (revealed in the quote) is which of the other 4 choices is best and why?

If historic data is correct and the chance to pull an item is actually =<1% (and, BTW, that is what the historic data indicates for an individual) then leaving things as they are means on average 100 days and 100 repeats to get any item. The reason is because the ransack factor drops the loot level of a chest and rapidly puts the various ingredients outside of the loot table.

Removing ransack and leaving drop rates reduces the number of days but not the number of quest repeats. A player no longer needs to wait on ransack to reset but they still have a =<1% chance at the pull so the on average number of runs is still 100.

Leaving ransack and increasing drop rates changes the number of days and runs required based on the change to drop rate. An increase to ~5% means 20 days and 20 repeats. That dovetails fairly well with the idea of 20th completion rewards.

Removing ransack and increasing drop rates reduces the number of days and sets the number of repeats to whatever the new drop rate produces.

IMO the current process clearly has little going for it. I think Turbine recognizes that and that players recognize that -- which is why we had a drop rate increase in a lot of the content.

I think that running a quest 100 times to get twink gear that may or may not be obsolete is excessive.

My feeling is that reducing then number of runs and also making it possible to do all in the same day just makes a mockery of the whole system.

So, to me, the rational change is to retain ransack and to up the drop rate.

Now, whether that should be from =<1% to 5% or 10% or 15% or even 2% is a separate debate. I can see that the bigger numbers are probably too much. But, with the comparability to 20th reward lists I think that a strong case can and should be made for increasing drop rates to ~5%.

Good post, and I'd be okay with your solution of upping drop rates on old gear to 5% as well.

[Chai]

DPS has doubled since the bard/paladin/barb changes... So 6 months ago, most characters had 50% of the max possible DPS we have today (and we were more squishy)... yet we managed to complete end-game epic elite quests... smart tactical group play still works... You don't HAVE to zerg into a mob of monsters and just cleave until everything is dead. Sure, the max DPS players finish epic elite faster, but so what? They're bored out of their minds... I say, building that perfect build is a complete waste of time... You spend 90% of the time working on that last 10% of power, which you don't need, and in fact, just makes the game more boring.

My point is true... One does not NEED the max build, the max number of past-lives, the max gear to do well in this game...

Ive posted similar posts in different threads where that information is relevant. The hamster wheel might still apply to make a character that will be able to solo ToEE on EE when it comes out, but for the other 99.9% of the game, the high amounts of time and or money spent on the hamster wheel is no longer needed, as it makes up a much smaller percentage of the character's real power overall when completed.

Once Turbine began making decisions that lean more toward enjoyable play experience rather than class balance nerfs, the game became accessible to a much higher percentage of players, many who could care less about long term grind to make a perfectly planned character.

[Enoach]

I kind of understand the OPs frustration on the Ransack. You see an item on a quest list and you think, wow that would work great for my character. Only to find not only did it not drop for you but no one else got one either.

Now you can probably throw a stone and hit multiple people that have run or even farmed quests and have never seen the item or maybe have seen it drop for someone else.

One of the nice things about Raid Timers is that it prevents Ransack if you abide by the timer and not use Raid Timer bypasses.

To me the main reason Turbine implemented Ransack had more to deal with players taking over level characters in to where the item drops and simply zerg there way through it until they get the item or their eyes bleed.

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However, I do agree that there is no one specific gear item that is Required for a build. There are always Best In Slot items but while these will consolidate and allow you more options you can still level and complete quests. Example at one time the Ring of Feathers (ML 1 Featherfall) was considered the item. But now Featherfall is on so many different items and is just as easy to craft a ML 1 item (possibly even expand on it so it is not just Featherfall as you level up). Its now simply a novelty item. Not as useful as it once was but not something you want to just throw away.

I loved the discussion about the eSoS. I'm one that spent a lot of time just trying to get the Heroic version since it first was available. For those that weren't here it first became available as part of a guaranteed 2 Raid Item drop in which the PL assigned the shards to allow them to be looted (Worked great if the PL was straight up but was bad if the PL limited the distribution to their limited circle). I finally got one on my character in Early Fall of 2014. I had been carrying around everything to make it epic since 2013. Now I'm not kidding about this, months later I pulled two of them. Loot gods can be cruel that is all I can say

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Now the question about completing EE content with sub-optimal characters even a Full Group of sub-optimal characters is possible. I think many people forget that Turbine does not create quests with the idea that they are going to crush the player. They have added in lots of mechanics that when a group of players works together they can be successful. Sure they are not going to do it in the same amount of time, but not everyone measures in XP/MIN or with DPS. To that end I've been in groups in quests like WGU with 6 moderately geared players working together to pull and manage the encounters.. Now I will admit that 1/2 the party were seasoned explorers practicing tactics of encounter management since '06. But you don't need that much practice to pull off what we did.

EE is not for the UBERS only and to think that is a grave mistake. It is available to those who also take the time and use their head. I mean how else do you think so many of us non-power gamer/UBERS walk around with stuff power gamers believe only they should have? Or where do you think quest guides come from as well as the release of secrets on how to handle encounters better, it comes from those of us that look beyond the min/max paradigm.

[Bluegirl_Two]

One of the nice things about Raid Timers is that it prevents Ransack if you abide by the timer and not use Raid Timer bypasses.

I'm not sure that this even matters to most players. Because you can get a nearly complete list of raid items as a Nth completion reward the issue of ransack is really insignificant. What is important is getting in N runs of the quest.

I do like your SoS story. I only ever had one drop and that was after the days to party leader control but during the days of group dynamics where loot generally was passed to characters based on class. Although that sparked lots of forum discussions about who loot actually belonged to, the common behavior was to pass loot. I did. I've only seen 1 drop since then and I came dead last in the loot roll for it.

[General_Gronker]

that's at best a half truth.

False.

Nope - I have to pay a subscription or I cant level.

False.

Nope - again I have to pay to be able to enjoy the game.

False.

Again no.

False.

If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.

False.

This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds

True

the ability to complete questlines,

False.

or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

False.

That's the god's truth

False.

and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

You know, before you go accusing anyone of lying about something, you might want to check the ratio of True to False in your statements. So far, you've managed one true claim. One. Out of many.

Has it occurred to you that the problem might not be with the game? Or that maybe this simply isn't the game for you?