You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[redoubt]

That 15 PRR less is not going to hurt high PRR harmor users much because they have also high HP. The loss of 5 PRR will hurt low PRR characters more because they have limited options to get more PRR and coincidentally they have fewer HP, which compounds the issue.

200 PRR = 66.7 reduction
185 PRR = 65% reduction

For high end heavy armor users, this change is a reduction of a little less than 2% mitigation.

50 PRR = 33.5 reduction
45 PRR = 31 % reduction.

For low PRR light armor users it looks like a little over 2% less mitigation.

[FuryFlash]

While I have played many holy trinity games (tank/healer/DPS) and while many are fun, we don't want to move this game in that direction. Although they can promote teamwork, we feel that the price of waiting as a DPS for an hour to find a healer or a tank is far more of a detriment to this game than the benefits of requiring those roles in normal content.

Our plan to encourage teamwork is to make the XP rewards encourage teamwork, make the death penalty character specific, and make new content hard enough on hard and elite that friends are welcome.

Sev~

"make the death penalty character specific"
This is such I good idea that I can't believe it hasn't already been introduced.

I am a huge fan of giving more rewards for playing with others, and hopefully these sorts of changes would help fill up the LFM panel more than it currently is.

[Andoris]

so basically what you are saying is, this is as hard as we are going to see DDO be? so these past lives and acquiring better gear and learning to play smarter is so I can feel challenged when I solo? I know there are specific quests and raids that are group challenging, but for the most part, its "friends welcome".

im assuming you mean the Flawless bonus because you don't actually encourage teamwork by making the death penalty character specific.

edit: you know I had high hopes and I was lead to believe that challenge would be injected back into the game. I didn't think we needed to go back to those trinity days, content could still be tough enough to encourage grouping by really wanting a full party rather than jump into the quest with "IP" in the lfm notes. I see now I was wrong and will be doing some serious thinking on how I want to approach DDO from this point on.

Look at EE MoD. While I have short manned it with amazing groups.. in general the content doesn't allow for more and 1 or 2 "under performers"

More content like that and a halt to the power jumps and we are in better shape.

[Andoris]

The players crying foul are wrong Thief Acrobat has been buffed to the same levels as Barbarian in terms of raw DPS, they have a few issues that Barbarians don't, they need to not have argo so they can get there SA, and don't have the regen to make them godly solo, but in a group they will be beasts, but these things just make for a different play experience (they need to manage there agro).

Agreed on TA.. concern was more on Assassin and Mechanic

[BigErkyKid]

First of all, it is nice that you are coming down to the arena with the lions and the gladiators all swinging at you. I think most players agree that you are by far the best producer we've had in a while when it comes to this.

I am aware that you cannot keep up with a dozen furious posters, but here it comes:

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

The issue with that is that you guys cannot produce much content fast while upgrading classes at the same time. At least that's what experience is telling us. That's why it is so compelling to re use somehow old stuff. My question is:

Why don't you make that top difficulty at level cap? Like all the quests are scaled to lvl 30 (all epic quests). Gear is lvl 30 specific for the most part. You give players something to do at cap. Maybe you can even sell this new difficulty as a pack and free for VIP, or have it be the elite on heroics style of thing. I am saying that because I know that you will worry that if people sit at cap they won't be generating revenue in terms of XP pots and what not.

Whether this is a good idea or not, the issue remains that a lot of the end game people are disgruntled that there is only the hamster wheel to run. It seems to me that it will be rather hard to provide enough quests and raids to change that unless you resort to recycling. This is the kind of stuff that bugs a big part of the veteran player base and that announcing a new quests or two won't really change.

Waiting more in Lama translates to pushing back a whole release, and in the greater scheme of things if I held up an entire release of content because Holy Sword might be a bit too strong the franchise would suffer.

Little to say here, let me just point out that plenty of people told me in game about it before it went to lama. One way or another these things need to be detected earlier because it seems that it is not the one thing, rather a common trait to the last 3 upgrades.

Melee can finally have the fun that casters and ranged Evasion builds have enjoyed for years?

It is fun to play the for a bit, especially as people who have suffered through the dark ages. But too easy is not that attractive after a while. Look at the achievement s thread. A year / year and a half ago soloing EE on a melee was worth posting, now unless you bring a very speedy completition no one gives a darn about it.

Anyone can get Heals, Evasion, self cast Displacement, Dimension Door and traps with a little planning and two levels of Rogue. And there are many builds as strong as that combo right now.

If by anyone you mean wiz / sorc melees splashes, I defy you to present me what you think is a build with similar all around DPS and utility

Fighter is fine, though I agree it is behind Paladin. Their greatest weakness is actually saving throws.

And heals (robots aside). And DPS. What is actually the point of playing a mostly fighter build right now? I have yet to find a player that things that fighters are currently fine.

The criticism on Rogue changes is the exact same stuff we heard about Paladin and Barbarians. Is your main balance concern that you suspect the rogue changes won't make them as good as Paladin? I think we want to see how they perform on Lamannia with the proposed changes.

What made those two classes OP was crit profiles and self healing, combined with armor up. Last I checked there was non of that for rogues. I actually trust very much a few of the "rogue experts" posting in lama telling you that it is not enough.

Believe me, I have tried to go over all of this in the Producer's letter and answered as many questions as I could and still have reasonable ability to make changes to the schedule based on player feedback and the team's needs. I am not sure how much more I can share with you about what we are working on.

Sev~

What is missing is the grand picture of things. You give pieces of it now and then, yet I am not sure it ends up coming across clearly to us. This thread is filled with very experienced players (and even PC or former PC players) that feel there is a lot of uncertainty regarding some fundamental issues.

[Systern]

No shared tree. Steelstar would kill me. He's been dying to work on the third Artificer tree. And an Artificer ED for that matter.

Sev~

From what you said of Druid and FvS, Arti-lovin' isn't going to happen in 2015, correct?

[UurlockYgmeov]

[Rhysem]

The game is in a much better place. Previously the end game was limited to pretty much casters and ranged Evasion builds. That was all that was really considered for top end builds. Everything else was considered a niche build. Melee wasn't really viable, nor was armor. Now Bard, Paladins, and Barbarians are doing well. People have a reason to actually wear heavy armor. Melee is an actual playstyle, and characters built for it can actually melee against foes without immediately dying.

I agree with other folks that fighters feel weak by themselves. Being able to get the weapon focus/spec lines isn't all that when enhancements make that an easy 6 point spend in a tree you probably already have (possibly your racial, possibly in another class). They're a great splash if you wear med/heavy or have a shield (like a swashie!)... but there's little reason to go deep.

Being in the middle of playing a bard TR, my previous-life monk feels weak. The bard got crazy strong at 4 (swash + TAB -- had a friend I'm duoing with go, "well that's new I'm not used to being carried in ddo") and has stayed strong the whole time (currently 16, having banked 17), pure elite streak. The TAB has carried me from 4 to 17 without much consideration for other gear and will probably roll me all the way to 20 when I pick up a T3 cove cutthroat's smallblade.

The monk doesn't have it nearly so easy. Unlike the bard which is easy to splash with some nice melee style (2 rogue, 3 fighter, 15 bard -- maybe 4 fighter/14 bard. Not sure yet.) its tricky to splash much anything with monk. Anything you splash that requires armor/shield is out (most of fighter, some of paladin). Other melees are anti-alignment-ed (which is a shame because a swashbuckler-ninja spy would be terrifying and amazing). Or the trees are anti-handwraps (ranger tempest). In pen&paper some might work (tempest should work with a quarterstaff treated as two headed weapon rather than two handed) but in ddo no dice.

Curious where you see those two. I know monk was the go-to if you wanted to melee for a long time, but I just don't see ever recommending it over 3 bard/swash these days.

[Andoris]

Right. First, casters dealt with the Drow hit. MoTU brought high SR Drow. Next, casters were tossed Undead content. And to top it off, now casters have been tossed Champions (with neat, special, practically undetectable anti-caster buffs). If by "happy with casters" you mean something like "happy with bad casters buying endless SP pots", I can sort of see why you might be "happy with casters". That'd be the monetary motivation. If by "happy with casters" you mean something like "happy that casters suck now", I can see that too. Lots of melee types have had a long term, special hatred for casters, and want to see them suck. If by "happy with casters" you mean "happy that casters have to have to build for melee to not completely suck", well, that would also make sense. It's a melee's game now, Severlin.

Try playing a caster, Severlin. For kicks and giggles, try soloing EE with one (without using XP Elixirs). Your uber-melees are laughing at this content now. Your casters are not. Pretty much any caster that is soloing EE will be in Shiradi and dealing weaksauce DPS. If you're happy with the performance of casters, why don't you nerf down the BRDs, PALs and BRBs so they play more like casters? In the game you've built, a caster is a waste of a party slot.

Wow, you could not be more off base if you tried.

I agree casters take more effort to build and play than a melee.. but they are by no means "suck(ing) now". I built for melee because "I could" not because "I had to".

As Sev unlikely has the time to build and learn a high performing caster.. I'll take the challenge. Bring any toon you want to G-land and we will do EE WGU.. I'll place greater than even odds (the stake is your call) that I will out kill you (on a 20 wiz) and I won't use any Spell Point pots assuming you don't either. Choose a different quest and I'll likely do even better.

Wizards are not a solo build and that is okay.. your an all powerful wizard.. you should have a cool hat and minions

[Grailhawk]

Grail, what do you say to my Pally that is "Amazing" at Defense and 90% of "Amazing" at DPS?

Also by "Amazing at defense" I'm assuming you mean some thing in Sentinel that pushes 300 PRR 150 MRR near permanent displacement, at least 10% Incorporeal, and at least 10% dodge. This is the kind of toon he wants to see viable and would be required under a trinity game.

[mna]

(Coup de Grace)

That's funny. Because it's single target, it's ok for it to have 90+ DC. Well, then let's give such a boost to Stunning Blow for example. It's single tagert as well. Oh and look, it's not even an insta-kill. So yeah, you should. /facepalm And no, it doesn't require the enemy to be helpless, or rather it affects not only helpless targets (Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned) and i browse bard's spells and their enhancements and i see a multitude ways for them to make a mob susceptible to that insta-kill, some of which are AoE spells, and of course we have fascinate with its also extremely high DC. And then add other party members, who can also prepare mobs for the bard's insta-kill.

Well. With a little work, it's possible for a swashbuckler to have an on-crit effect that causes targets to be susceptible to Coup, and also effectively have a crit-on-demand feature... and also trip on miss, and other fun.

(En Pointe with one of the expanded-crit-range named swashbuckleable weapons and appropriate Improved Critical feat is pretty much auto-crit, though with -1 multiplier, but the multiplier doesn't count with the fun on-crit stuff. And the Crystal Cove buckler comes with Guardbreaking, which is daze on crit.)

[BigErkyKid]

Also by "Amazing at defense" I'm assuming you mean some thing in Sentinel that pushes 300 PRR 150 MRR near permanent displacement, at least 10% Incorporeal, and at least 10% dodge. This is the kind of toon he wants to see viable and would be required under a trinity game.

No need to do that. Andoris said he has a VG, so between the MRR from the shield, the natural PRR from the armor and the DR30 you already have a survivable character.

[davmuzl]

Fighter is fine, though I agree it is behind Paladin. Their greatest weakness is actually saving throws.

Comparing Paladins to Fighters is like comparing humans to other racers. Paladins get their DPS for free like humans get their racial benefits pretty much for free. Having to spend almost half your action points is just not worth most of the time. It's fine if you say the player has to make a decision where to spend their points but then make everyone make the same decision.

[Andoris]

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

Yes Please!!!!!!

Give us a very unique cosmetic .. or a cool augment (think Draconic Soul Gem) or better loot drops (think MoD) and make it so only Level 30s can enter.

I and a much of the end game community on G-land will run that all day long.

Heck, I would pay a fairly significant sum to buy that content if I had to -- I know most of the player base won't run it.. so price it accordingly for those of us that will.

[Andoris]

You really think it's with in 10? of a DPS paladin?

Happy to exchange notes and Bruntsmash tests..... you know where to find me

[Grailhawk]

No need to do that. Andoris said he has a VG, so between the MRR from the shield, the natural PRR from the armor and the DR30 you already have a survivable character.

Because DDO is not a trinity game so "off tanks" (Vangaurd assuming VG means Vanguard) can serve as tanks, if you go to a system where real tanks are needed that's the kind of thing that would be needed, which is what you were calling for requiring specialization into on area no?

[Andoris]

Also by "Amazing at defense" I'm assuming you mean some thing in Sentinel that pushes 300 PRR 150 MRR near permanent displacement, at least 10% Incorporeal, and at least 10% dodge. This is the kind of toon he wants to see viable and would be required under a trinity game.

Nope.. Legendary Dreadnought... any pally (or build for that matter) that needs Sentinel is doing it wrong.

Come on Grail.. I thought you knew me better than that

[Andoris]

Woot! I finally caught up.

I know this is a nonsensical post but I don't usually post in the achievement forums.. so this is it

[BigErkyKid]

Because DDO is not a trinity game so "off tanks" (Vangaurd assuming VG means Vanguard) can serve as tanks, if you go to a system where real tanks are needed that's the kind of thing that would be needed, which is what you were calling for requiring specialization into on area no?

Nope! And besides we already see specialization in one area in DDO, DPS. Its just that the rest of the stuff comes for free in the OP classes.

[Grailhawk]

Nope.. Legendary Dreadnought... any pally (or build for that matter) that needs Sentinel is doing it wrong.

Come on Grail.. I thought you knew me better than that

Let me ask are you interested in game going to a trinity system or requiring all toons specialize in on discipline? Or do you prefer self-sufficient toons?