Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Severlin]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

~ Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia.

Sev~

[Spoonwelder]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

~ Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia.

Sev~

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

[Severlin]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

[Thar]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

agreed, rogues shouldn't get full bab. that's core DnD.

[oradafu]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Yet Warpriests and Eldritch Knights get full BAB toggles.
Also monks gets full BAB with Flurry of Blows.
Warchanters to a less permanent full BAB with their Victory Song, since they must keep the song active.

Also remember that full BAB gains greater benefits with armor, besides attack speed.

[Spoonwelder]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Except for: (cite ddowiki)

• Bladesworn Transformation
• Divine Power spell
• Divine Power toggle: Warpriest enhancements T5 ability
• Madstone Rage
• Past Life: Student of the Sword clicky
• Tenser's Transformation spell
• Tenser's Transformation toggle: Eldritch Knight enhancements T5 ability
• Victory Song toggle: Warchanter enhancements level 18 core ability
• Just Cause: Divine Crusader first innate ability

Three are class enhancements to classes that don't have full BAB that replicate spells available to the class. That's usually the biggest benefit of them (espcially Divine power that you would have +6 Str on most characters anyway).

Rogues could scroll those spells but the times on the scrolls are annoyingly low. Alternatively give the mech tree scroll/wand a duration boost as well as damage (ie. 75% longer spells on Tensers gives me 2.5min which would be pretty sweet but not game breaking). That said I wouldn't want it in Mech as it would be points spent just to get this but.....I would consider giving up 2SA dice I get from racial tree to get long tensers.

[Qezuzu]

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

Sev~

And what is supposed to be the weak point of Paladin builds who ignore >60% of physical damage and >50% of magical damage, have over 85 in every save, over 1,300 HP, excellent self-healing for a melee, etc. while still having some of the best DPS?

I'm fine with Rogues not being tanks. It doesn't make sense. I'm not fine with the lowest-defense classes not having the best DPS bar none, like how it is in basically every RPG. In DDO, right now we have many builds that are functionally unkillable that also have top-tier DPS, this is bad game design IMO. Rogues are not even in the same game when it comes to survivability compared to Paladins, Bards, Fighters, anything that can can kite and/or self-heal, even raging Barbarians, and this is okay, but to compensate they should have much better damage (especially since a lot of that damage is contexual and doesn't work on a bunch of races/monsters), and this isn't something I'm seeing.

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Well except for Clerics, Favored Souls (Divine Power), Bards (Warchanter), Sorcerers, Wizards, Artificers (Tensers), and Monks (Flurry of Blows). Rogues and Druids are the only classes who do not have full BAB nor an innate ability to make it full.

No one is asking to change the BAB progression for Rogues. Putting "you get full BAB when using these weapons" (weapons that you have basically pigeonholed these trees into, by the way) into Staff/Knife Specialization is not asking much.

Why do they need to close this gap? If your main concern when playing a rogue is keeping up with the Joneses, maybe you should consider just becoming one of the Joneses.

This isn't an issue of "keeping up with the Joneses". I and I imagine many other people just don't want devs to be inconsistent. I don't want to hear "Full BAB is a class distinction" when it has already been given to a majority of the non-full-BAB classes. I don't to hear "this [weakness] is by design" when we already have a class or two that have absolutely zero mechanical weaknesses. They made Bards and especially Paladins overpowered to an extent I would call unhealthy for the game, so don't be surprised when people ask for conveniences and improvements like "do more damage while not being an immortal tank".

[Severlin]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

[oradafu]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

So does that mean Coup de Grace will be adjusted from its obscenely high DC formula? It is an instant kill after all, where as Acrobats are just asking for a 3 sec trip.

[Munkenmo]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

Wow... You couldn't have figured that out in advance...

Newsflash. There's a reason fascinate used to be the primary source of CC in epic Von 6.

[RD2play]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

You could change it to half perform mod and bards would still be able to make the upper 90s in DC maybe something to think about.

I for one find it ridicules bard has a better instakill ability than rogue

[Myrddinman]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

This is too bad, as I think it's viable idea, especially for a CC trip and not for an instakill.

Perhaps it can use Rogue level (opposed to 1/2 Rogue level), which would discourage splashing. Better yet, make it character level so that it scales better into Epic levels. Also, give it highest ability modifier, for greater build flexibility.

[Severlin]

This is too bad, as I think it's viable idea, especially for a CC trip and not for an instakill.

Perhaps it can use Rogue level (opposed to 1/2 Rogue level), which would discourage splashing. Better yet, make it character level so that it scales better into Epic levels. Also, give it highest ability modifier, for greater build flexibility.

I imagine the Sweeping Strikes DC will likely use full rogue levels, Dexterity and add trip bonuses if we compared it like other DCs. The problem with Sweeping Strikes is, I believe, that it is compared to Balance and it should be using a Reflex saving throw or be totally modified to be compared against a straight Strength check like PnP. Balance should be affecting the chance to get up, not the initial saving throw. We haven't finished the review for the trip abilities so I can't answer questions yet. We are working as fast as we can!

Sev~

[maddong]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

Maybe it shouldn't stay that way?

Is staff alacrity while moving going to get fixed?

[Ayseifn]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

Only problem I had with Coup de Grace was how easy it is to land the CC, if the CC was tied to stat based DC's it'd be perfect.

Ideally Assassins need good hide/move silent(skill DC) to reliably set up their Assassinates(stat DC) while Coup is the reverse with a stat DC setup(stun, Hold monster, Frozen Fury, etc.) but a skill based kill.

As for Spinning Staff Wall not really digging it, 20 seconds up and 90 down is too long on a defensive clicky. What about Expert Dodger: Any melee attack that would have killed you is instead dodged(can only trigger once every 3 minutes).

As for the trip stuff you're looking into, any chance of changing Improved Trip to a straight +4 to trip DCs?

[dunklezhan]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

Scroll tensers?

[Spoonwelder]

Scroll tensers?

PITA to keep up permanently....add moderate arcane spell failure and cooldowns on scrolls and needing to scroll heal sometimes......

Note I am note looking for it on all weapons just the relatively weak weapons of the PrE's daggers, kukri and staves. So not even shortswords or rapiers just the PrE weapons. It could be added to the level 18 core so that it isn't low hanging fruit that anyone would splash for.

[Holybird]

PITA to keep up permanently....add moderate arcane spell failure and cooldowns on scrolls and needing to scroll heal sometimes......

Note I am note looking for it on all weapons just the relatively weak weapons of the PrE's daggers, kukri and staves. So not even shortswords or rapiers just the PrE weapons. It could be added to the level 18 core so that it isn't low hanging fruit that anyone would splash for.

Because of it being also Arti spell, it doesn't suffer from ASF. Or then I have been superlucky with 85% ASF

[Myrddinman]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

Not a bad idea. It would be a nice boost to weapons that are tree dependent to gain a little more oomph (1d6 base for Quarterstaff and 1d4 Dagger). Perhaps limit Mechanic to Great Crossbows for full BAB (leaving Repeaters the providence of Artificers).

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Curses! Well, I suppose Rogues should be able to scroll Tenser's without much investment. Speaking of which (and in conjunction with the other suggestions of Quickened scroll use for Rogues), perhaps Scroll Mastery could include Extend. Great for Displacement and Tenser's.

[Caprice]

How about the following idea for putting the momentum in Momentum Defense?

Momentum Defense: Every time you hit an enemy with a special attack from the Thief-Acrobat tree, you gain +1% Dodge chance and +1% Maximum Dodge Bonus. This ability stacks up to 10 times and expires after 20 seconds if not refreshed.

You might have some of the special abilities add more than 1 stack. For instance there's plenty of Staff Lunge displeasure in this thread; make it give several stacks and people will have more incentive to figure out how to use it most effectively.