Behind the Mournlands Preview Program

[Memnir]

After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of seeing Llamania feedback just go to waste, and even more seeing said feedback tagged as a "known issue" when brought up on Llama's forums and still have the problem linger for months more - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of slapping my forehead and wondering how did Problem/Bug-X make it past ML testers - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.



I'm sorry, but I just do not have any kind of conviction that the ML server does a **** thing. Especially after it being labeled another "Preview Server" in 404's OP. I see it as nothing but a behind-the-velvet-rope version of Llama. A members-only club, that has little direct impact on the game itself. Yeah, I'm probably wrong about a lot of that - but it's the honest impression I've gotten of ML since the game launched. I don't know if I'm wrong or not because I cannot know. A necessary side-effect of the NDA. All I can go by is the indirect evaluation I've been able to form over the years - and that evaluation is that ML is an empty effort.

All I know is that my faith in ML is nill. This thread has done nothing to change that opinion. So... why expend my valuable free time in what I very much believe would just be wasted time? And don't get me wrong - I've beta tested for many games. I started DDO as a beta tester. I've tested RTSs, MMOs, FPSs, and a long list of titles for Microsoft (one of the benifits of living so close to their Redmond HQ). I like to test games, and have a good degree of experience doing so.
I do not like to waste my time, however.

[Phemt81]

Technical question here:

The Minimum Age of 18 is for the part of having to sign a contract, I assume? Or is there another reason for this?

Cause if you break the Non Disclosure Agreement they will be able to sue your butt

[protokon]

Citation please. Link me to information about said server.


Again citation. I know of zero valve games that do this. They certainly do not advertise if they do so, im a huge fan of many of their games and would know about this, not so much for WoW, but for a couple valve games ive been following for years: TF2, CS.. I would know, I'm 100% positive they NOTHING like mournlands.

I know for a fact both WoW and most the big valve games (CS, TF2) have PUBLIC OPEN test version and servers unlike DDO. They also have bug report forums and read every report. Thats the major difference. Open, transparent QA that is very clearly reading and responding to a lot on dedicated bug report forums, they have great QA. How frequently TF2 gets updates and few bugs it has is awesome.

If they also have a hidden un-advertised closed one, that is a good thing. And thats absolutely not the same thing.

Saying
"We have this great preview server, we keep talking about it.. and no you can't join, and no we have no test server." is a lot different then saying nothing, advertising a open public test server and having a hidden one out of sight for earlier stuff.

Shade I will have to agree with what you said in another thread here:

cant believe ppl are still debating this..

Give up. Devs word > yours.

Also have to agree with Memnir that with the magnitude of stuff that makes it through, it is extremely difficult for us to have faith in the ML server. Although, on the other side we have no idea how many bugs were stopped on that server due to the testers on it, so we can't condemn it entirely for lack of details.

Just can't condone it either, for the exact same reason.

[Vhlad]

You can say the same exact thing about Llama.

If someone said the same thing about Lamannia they would be wrong. Anyone who wants to access Lamannia can. Anyone who wants to read the Lamannia forums can. We do not have a competitive market under asymmetric information with Lamannia. We do, however, have it with mournlands: an exclusive private server where some players are able to get information that others cannot.

[Vhlad]

After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of seeing Llamania feedback just go to waste, and even more seeing said feedback tagged as a "known issue" when brought up on Llama's forums and still have the problem linger for months more - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of slapping my forehead and wondering how did Problem/Bug-X make it past ML testers - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.



I'm sorry, but I just do not have any kind of conviction that the ML server does a **** thing. Especially after it being labeled another "Preview Server" in 404's OP. I see it as nothing but a behind-the-velvet-rope version of Llama. A members-only club, that has little direct impact on the game itself. Yeah, I'm probably wrong about a lot of that - but it's the honest impression I've gotten of ML since the game launched. I don't know if I'm wrong or not because I cannot know. A necessary side-effect of the NDA. All I can go by is the indirect evaluation I've been able to form over the years - and that evaluation is that ML is an empty effort.

All I know is that my faith in ML is nill. This thread has done nothing to change that opinion. So... why expend my valuable free time in what I very much believe would just be wasted time? And don't get me wrong - I've beta tested for many games. I started DDO as a beta tester. I've tested RTSs, MMOs, FPSs, and a long list of titles for Microsoft (one of the benifits of living so close to their Redmond HQ). I like to test games, and have a good degree of experience doing so.
I do not like to waste my time, however.

The WOP sell-off is a clear example of mournlanders using their privileged information to gain a real advantage in the live game. There are, however, more subtle abuses that most certainly occur. One simple example: choosing not to read a +3 or +4 tome because you know TR is coming.

I find it very frustrating that Turbine allows a group of players to have such a massive advantage with no trade-off. Keep testing exclusive if you want but asymmetric information wreaks too much havoc on the markets. If mournlands is to exist then the information from it should be public. At minimum, as soon as mournlanders find out about it, appoint someone to warn the rest of the playerbase about the market-relevant information: item nerfs/buffs, character nerfs/buffs, and game mechanic changes or additions. If the build or change is not final then warn us it might occur. The bottom line is that, in a multiplayer game where characters are stored on the company's servers and cheating is not allowed, there should be a level playing field.

[mystafyi]

After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened

There was also a sell off of some sands scrolls. wasnt so obvious since the most desired scrolls were so very rare to begin with, but it did happen.

If you pay attention to sales of other rare scrolls from different packs in the present/future, you will see upcoming changes.

[404error]

So the three big issues that I can comment on are-
1) Bug slip ups from MLer's and how do they happen?
2) We aren't listened to by developers and our feedback is not acted upon for both Mourlands and Lamannia.
3) How do we know if Mournlanders are not using the program to benefit themselves on live.

To answer point 1 in a very direct manner is there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime. Not everything will be addressed at that moment or we are curently focusing on other tasks that we don't have time to make soon to be released content as perfect as it should be. DDO like other MMO's is a living game and will always change and evolve. Does any of this mean we don't care, no we care deeply and if days came with more time we would fix more. Many members of both Dev and QA put in more hours than they should to try to make the game as fun and as good as it can be for every launch and we take it personally when we miss something.

Myself and Kookie follow up with Dev's on a nearly daily basis to see what is being done on certain issues. The overall feedback is accounted for and reviewed regularly and we present that to the producers and the developers of their dungeons.

The other point of that you aren't listened to by Turbine is in my opinion just wrong to a point. The Mournlands program as a whole has been invaluable at making dungeons and new character advancement options far more fun for players overall. On a whole I have seen less complaints on how fun everything is in the past year and that leads me to believe that what is being done by the players that have applied and are representing you are doing what we hoped for. That says to me that it is working on what it is intended to do. We listen and communicate as much as we have time for and pass along all valuable feedback to the appropriate developer.

The final point is probably the one taken most seriously in the program from each program director that I have had the pleasure to talk to. The second I know a participant is leaking information or using information to their advantage they are removed from the program and possible live account ramifications may go into effect depending on the offense. There have been leaks and abuse in Mournlands previously and it may happen again but I take big stride in making sure these thing a don't happen and the community takes big strides in policing itself on these issues because of they are as invested in making DDO better along with some of you if not more.

~404error~

[Gkar]

Ok, if you can't tell us who, tell us how many non Turbine staff play on ML. It would be helpful to know if it 2 or 2000.

[mystafyi]

Two answer point 1 in a very direct manner is there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

Could you please focus on getting the bug reporting function working again? Many folks see this as further 'proof' that turbine doesnt care about bugs at all. Not saying this is true, but perception is a MF'er.

While yer at it, please focus on lag issues, hireling AI, memory leak problem, quicken metafeat bug, arti dogs staying in world after owner is gone, datdefrag util that used to work till ya'll disabled it, and finally the umd lag/swapping items lag bug.

[Scraap]

The other point of that you aren't listened to by Turbine is in my opinion just wrong to a point. The Mournlands program as a whole has been invaluable at making dungeons and new character advancement options far more fun for players overall. On a whole I have seen less complaints on how fun everything is in the past year and that leads me to believe that what is being done by the players that have applied and are representing you are doing what we hoped for. That says to me that it is working on what it is intended to do. We listen and communicate as much as we have time for and pass along all valuable feedback to the appropriate developer.

Hate to tell you, but that has more to do with your 'communications team' slapping a muzzle on dissension instead of communicating what is going on until it is far to late to do a thing about it, combined with the simple fact that it's become quite clear that many of us are wasting our breath trying to get anything done to break things out of the same old min/max box unless it means you can somehow charge us for it.

And yeah, I could be more politically correct about it, but subtle obviously doesn't work either.

[Vhlad]

The final point is probably the one taken most seriously in the program from each program director that I have had the pleasure to talk to. The second I know a participant is leaking information or using information to their advantage they are removed from the program and possible live account ramifications may go into effect depending on the offense. There have been leaks and abuse in Mournlands previously and it may happen again but I take big stride in making sure these thing a don't happen and the community takes big strides in policing itself on these issues because of they are as invested in making DDO better along with some of you if not more.

~404error~

If I was naive and optimistic enough to think that that was sufficient then I would probably live a happier and more care-free life. But I'm not. I'm a cynical old fart.

The fact is, mournlanders WILL use the information they gain to advance their characters on the live server. Do you really believe a mournlander who knows TR is coming and wants to TR is going to read the +4 tome that they just pulled on a live server? Or that a mournlander who wants a scroll of the marilith chain is going to trade 30 red devil scales for it when they know in a few months they can get one for any 3 scrolls?

Choosing not to do something is much more subtle and almost impossible for you to know about or police.

Also almost impossible for you to know about or police is when mournlander uses a second account (under a different name/credit card), or talks to friends using an external chat program.

The only way to stop participants from benefiting from asymmetric information is to remove the asymmetry: As soon as mournlanders find out about a change or potential change that could influence trades or character builds, tell the rest of the playerbase about it. Or make the Mournlands forums (and just the forums) accessible to VIPs.

[Memnir]

-many points in a long post-

Probably all true, 404.
But the problem is, at least for me personally, I can only go by what I see and what I know. And, that is simply that ML has left a very bad impression with me. When I look at the totality of my DDO experience, I don't have a good impression of or put an iota of stock in the ML program as a whole.

Can I say I speak from experience - no, I cannot. All of what you say may be utterly the truth. But... my feelings and opinions remain the same none the less. I have literally years worth of sour impressions of ML.

And sadly, a few posts by y'all isn't going to erase those impressions. It's not that I don't like or trust you, Maj, or the rest of the Dev team. I do. I've met many of y'all in person at PAX over the years, and gotten to know many more of you here on the forums. I've not met one Turbine person I've not enjoyed passing time with. But, I cannot take what is said on face value. If you want my impressions to change - it'll take time and visible evidence that things have either changed or that I was wrong in the first place. And, I really don't think what I posted was wrong.

That ML has had a long string of abuses, and my mention of the WoP sell-off was only the most egregious one I can think of - there have been more, is simply a fact. Bugs that should have been found and squashed on ML, at least in a good number of players' opinions anyways, were not. And, feedback on Llama goes unfixed that I have to wonder if the same isn't true on ML... again, this is only by what I can see and go by. I know that Llama isn't strictly a "test server", it's a preview server. And by your OP here... so is ML, just a roped off one. So, what is to tell me that feedback on ML is taken any more seriously then the stuff that pops up on Llama? How do we know that feedback isn't just as ignored?


I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. I'm really not.
I am trying to be as honest as I can, and tell you the Devs why I think that ML is not an effective facet of DDO as y'all do. It's all about perception. And I don't perceive ML to be anything but a shell game.

[Auran82]

Silence does not always mean that someone is happy with a decision, it just means they have lost the will/see no point in speaking up about it anymore.

The simple fact is, Lammania is a preview server, people need to remember that, we only see stuff on there when it is pretty much too late to change before release. But at the same time, we are asked to test things, give feedback and report bugs. Often the bugs are, to us, so obvious, that anyone who plays the game on a regular basis would encounter within 5 minutes during testing. Which leads me to ask, is this not being picked up internally? Is it not being picked up on ML and if so, who the hell do you have playing on there? Or is it being picked up on ML or being kept quiet because they can use it to their advantage on live? Or lastly, is it being picked up, but is not able to be fixed now, but is also not able to be put onto any kind of known bugs database we can see?

The UI was a pretty good example of a change that was put through, was previewed, nearly everyone hated it and there appeared to be surprise from Turbine that this was the case. If so, it's pretty clear that either everyone on ML is a 'yes man' or you simply have the wrong people on there.

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

The UI was a pretty good example of a change that was put through, was previewed, nearly everyone hated it and there appeared to be surprise from Turbine that this was the case. If so, it's pretty clear that either everyone on ML is a 'yes man' or you simply have the wrong people on there.

This is indeed a rather ostentatious occurrence. The UI change went through ML and Lamma and all the way to Live. I'm glad it was ultimately changed to a much better format (superior to the original in my opinion), but it is still odd that the annoying aspects weren't fully recognized before release.

[BOgre]

Maj posted in his thread that 404 would be asking for new applicants to the ML program. 404 posts this thread, which is about.... what exactly? There's no link to any ML application << now fixed, thanks 404>>, and well, I guess I don't get what this thread is supposed to BE. Other than to tell me that now Mournlands, as well as Lamma, is to be considered a Preview server and not a playtest/bughunt server.... Okay, consider me told. Wheee.

[Myrddinman]

It's all about perception. And I don't perceive ML to be anything but a shell game.

So very true, and excellent point Memnir! I work as a Retail Manager and I can tell you perception is reality, for both customers and your employees. It's not always true and it's not always fair, but it is what it is

[Missing_Minds]

After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.

So just how many MLers went on a massive spree of selling? How do you know it wasn't just one or two that told their friends which spread the word like wild fire? People that weren't under the NDA and so could talk without repercussions.

How do we know that something didn't happen to the MLers in general? The only one that knows for fact is 404 and those on ML.

Unlike some people, I would rather think that only a few won't follow NDA and may use it for their own personal gain. Which means unknown people who can't even defend themselves from slander due to the NDA are being attacked and essentially getting blamed for the "bad apple in the barrel."

Yeah, I do have a bit of rosey look on life but it sure beats being mean spirited and grumpy all the time.

[404error]

Maj posted in his thread that 404 would be asking for new applicants to the ML program. 404 posts this thread, which is about.... what exactly? There's no link to any ML application, and well, I guess I don't get what this thread is supposed to BE. Other than to tell me that now Mournlands, as well as Lamma, is to be considered a Preview server and not a playtest/bughunt server.... Okay, consider me told. Wheee.

I edited the original post to include it.

I can understand your concern with "cheating" from the Mournlanders and there have been bans related to Mournlanders cheating the system and many did not expect it to happen. While I try to keep as many bad apples out of the pot it happens from time to time and honestly there is no better pressure than peer pressure to keep you on the straight and narrow. Also people that are probably going to cheat the system have come with a type of participation in the program that I have come to identify and they typically are only in it for one update cycle.

The original post was a PSA on how, why, and who should apply to Mournlands. If your every intention is to come and bug things you are better off applying to our QA department so you can actually track those issues you hate. Being one of the few players who have gone over to Turbine side and once you see how DDO is developed you get why process we have in place and developed are there and I felt more comfortable with the issues I saw.

[Memnir]

So just how many MLers went on a massive spree of selling? How do you know it wasn't just one or two that told their friends which spread the word like wild fire? People that weren't under the NDA and so could talk without repercussions.

I'm not saying it was all ML folks who did the selling off at various times - and I'm assuming that they did tell their friends. Which makes it not one bit better.

People had the knowledge, and they profited from it. Knowledge that the rest of the population did not have, thus making the profit possible. Mournlands is not a contained unit. It might not leak like the Titanic - but it's far from watertight. And any time that this occurs, it's a huge breach of what ML is touted to be. The fact that it's happened several times now is... troubling. To me at least.

Were they caught and punished - I have no way of knowing. But, since it's happened multiple times, mysterious price-drops and sell-offs of things that turn out to be changing in the near future, provides me with enough incidental evidence to have doubts about the whole ML program and how it polices itself. Do I think every ML previewer is a scheming and malicious creep who is only looking to further their material gain on the live servers? No. But I do think there is a small percentage among their number who are. You can say that's human nature - but since this is an invite-only server with an application process and supposed standards in place to govern those invites, I have to wonder how effective those are when it keeps happening.


Anyways - I'll stop raining on the ML parade. I've said my piece, and I think I've said it well enough that my position is clear. If I'm wrong, I'll be more then happy to say so when there is enough reason for me to do so. If there is enough reason for me to do so. It's taken a long time for me to get so cynical and jaded about Turbines Preview process (not gonna call it testing if they won't), and it'll take a long time for me to repair that opinion.

[Phemt81]

there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

Can i say: quote of the year?