Producer's Letter

[LrdSlvrhnd]

My biggest complaints were with the level requirements going up with difficulty instead of being set based on the Normal item (and to be fair I have issues with level requirements of loot in general lately), and the absolutely terrible drop rates. Also on an item-by-item basis, some of the hard->elite upgrades were great, some were terrible, most were just eh.

Most of the ones I've looked at, the hard > elite upgrade was good, but the normal > hard was a real why-bother? Especially if you have the Normal and the Elite, the Hard can be extremely ignored.

I'd figure that Devs didn't like it because it tripled their workload. Players didn't like the "punish success" model of increasing ML, eliminating that does truly make the Normal and Hard versions wasted effort, coding time, and design however.

I dunno about that - I have some stuff I only have on Normal or Hard, because that's all I've managed to get, even if I could wear the Elite. That would still be the case if they were all the same level - possibly even moreso, because there'd be cases of "Well, I have the elite... but I want to keep the normal so I can wear it two levels sooner when that character gets there." Whereas with N, H, and E all being the same ML, it'd be "Well, I have the elite, so I'm gonna go ahead and sell this Normal one!"

So I don't think it'd be a waste of effort, but it would definitely be a reward success.

[patang01]

I still don't understand what people didn't like about norm/hard/elite loot.

Speaking as someone who has just completely given up on Elite because of champions (I am not complaining - it is a good thing that elite now requires more skill than I have), I should feel like I am missing out.

The real issue was two fold. First, it added entire piles of garbage loot that few wanted. Partly because most folks wanted elite when they had hard or normal. Second, the system was entirely trivialized as 'reward for higher difficulty' when there was no problem whatsoever for anyone to just buy it instead. The real excuse why people still want it is so they can sell their elite loot to people all too willing to buy it. Some people didn't even run content, they bought all they wanted from the AH. In other words; not only do you get fewer people running quests but there's no real incentive to run elite anyways since it's just a matter of shard transaction in the end.

[Faltout]

The real issue was two fold. First, it added entire piles of garbage loot that few wanted. Partly because most folks wanted elite when they had hard or normal. Second, the system was entirely trivialized as 'reward for higher difficulty' when there was no problem whatsoever for anyone to just buy it instead. The real excuse why people still want it is so they can sell their elite loot to people all too willing to buy it. Some people didn't even run content, they bought all they wanted from the AH. In other words; not only do you get fewer people running quests but there's no real incentive to run elite anyways since it's just a matter of shard transaction in the end.

Sounds to me that Bound to Account on Acquire with a low drop rate solves all the above problems.

[Thar]

Sounds to me that Bound to Account on Acquire with a low drop rate solves all the above problems.

unfortunately we went to a Bound to Account on Acquire with no drop rate for Orchard for some items... and i'm not even mentioning the raid. The belt, bracers and mythic items never drop...

[arkonas]

I'd figure that Devs didn't like it because it tripled their workload. Players didn't like the "punish success" model of increasing ML, eliminating that does truly make the Normal and Hard versions wasted effort, coding time, and design however.

don't forget there was also the type of people who just bought the gear from the people who did do it. some would act like it was so hard for them just to buy it from the ah then go around flaunting it. honestly i didn't care what difficulty the items were. if i saw use in them i went after it. i think there are 3 types of items that should be out there. you have your normal gear that is easy to get easy drops. then the more moderate gear with average drop rates then you have the rare like what mythic, bloodstone, bauble, etc. what those were all like. im ok with those.

[arkonas]

unfortunately we went to a Bound to Account on Acquire with no drop rate for Orchard for some items... and i'm not even mentioning the raid. The belt, bracers and mythic items never drop...

nothing wrong with something hard to get. i don't want everything to be easy to get.

[PermaBanned]

We don't plan on changing the explorer area or revamping it for a new difficulty. It will still be there for lower level characters.

Sev~

Oh, boo!!

I was looking forward to a new Vale Wilderness to go with the new story line like all y'all did in the Orchard & Cove...

Boo I say!

[dunklezhan]

The real issue was two fold. First, it added entire piles of garbage loot that few wanted. Partly because most folks wanted elite when they had hard or normal. Second, the system was entirely trivialized as 'reward for higher difficulty' when there was no problem whatsoever for anyone to just buy it instead. The real excuse why people still want it is so they can sell their elite loot to people all too willing to buy it. Some people didn't even run content, they bought all they wanted from the AH. In other words; not only do you get fewer people running quests but there's no real incentive to run elite anyways since it's just a matter of shard transaction in the end.

Hmm.

Well, speaking as someone who's bought the odd bit of elite gear with plat (Ok once - a second orb, for an alt who was close in level range because I didn't want to burn out on GH content), and never one managed to sell any **** thing on the shard... I'm in favour of things which allow player interaction, even if it does allow the buying of (some) types of loot. That said, I also have no problem with bound loot. My favorite is BTAoE or BTCoE because it means I can sell what I don't want when I pull stuff running solo.

Looking at the other replies, I see the ML might be the real issue, and I quite agree: the ML shouldn't really change. But that's not a problem with N/H/E loot per se, that's just an issue with one factor of how they implemented it.

If that was fixed, maybe they could drop the 'hard' class of loot reward (lightening the Dev load) and give hard difficulty a very small chance of dropping the elite version, but otherwise just drops the normal version at a slightly higher rate than Normal difficulty.

Still, thanks everyone for chipping in and trying to enlighten me. ML increases and buying success. I would never have pegged those as the problems in a bazillion years - I probably would have noticed if I TRd more frequently but for me what I loved about it was just being excited when I saw named loot appear in a chest when I was in on Elite, whilst still being happy with the loot I might get on normal or hard.

[slarden]

We don't plan on changing the explorer area or revamping it for a new difficulty. It will still be there for lower level characters.

Sev~

Does this mean no epic vale wilderness? I thought it would be there epic'd even if it was the exact same thing with higher CR enemies.

[Grosbeak07]

I still don't understand what people didn't like about norm/hard/elite loot.

Speaking as someone who has just completely given up on Elite because of champions (I am not complaining - it is a good thing that elite now requires more skill than I have), I should feel like I am missing out.

I personally didn't like it because it meant the only way to get gear was Elite. Why haven't different difficulties then, there is only one that matters. Perhaps it could have been better if they didn't introduce the shard exchange at the same time, which made the gear far to expensive to buy and otherwise difficult to obtain.

[Cetus]

I personally didn't like it because it meant the only way to get gear was Elite. Why haven't different difficulties then, there is only one that matters. Perhaps it could have been better if they didn't introduce the shard exchange at the same time, which made the gear far to expensive to buy and otherwise difficult to obtain.

I'm not following. Elite wasn't the only way to get *gear* - it was the only way to get *the BEST gear*. Each difficulty setting matters to different populations of people. It absolutely trumps the outrageous system of making otherwise EE only loot available by ROFLSTOMPING normal.

[Grosbeak07]

I'm not following. Elite wasn't the only way to get *gear* - it was the only way to get *the BEST gear*. Each difficulty setting matters to different populations of people. It absolutely trumps the outrageous system of making otherwise EE only loot available by ROFLSTOMPING normal.

Yes but as so many have pointed out, it's all or nothing. I like having the best gear, but don't like playing elite as it's currently designed, this isn't a "I want something for nothing", it's a "it is not fun to play elite". As it was the only way to get the *best* gear, which whether you realized it or not, essentially invalidated any other difficulty level in game, even though in honesty, there was not that much difference between Hard and Elite gear. Again the ASAH, ruined this even more as Elite gear was priced extremely high, along with rampant duping, Made the whole N/H/E gear system just not work.

Powerful loot should be generally rare, but I also think it should have a chance to drop on all difficulty levels (well maybe not casual), with much higher chances on elite. I'm even ok with significantly higher drops on elite, but there is no reason why those who play on Normal or Hard can't have a shot at getting something awesome, if playing that difficultly level is fun for them. It shouldn't bother you, these players (like me) are not going to be joining your groups.

[Cetus]

I like having the best gear, but don't like playing elite as it's currently designed, this isn't a "I want something for nothing", it's a "it is not fun to play elite". .

Personally, this is the exact stance I've been so repelled by. Of course you like having the best gear, but if you acquire it while doing non-EE content - then you are necessarily getting something for nothing.

I think saying "its not fun to play elite" is a cop out argument to just get the best gear without having to work for it.

If you don't like elite - then get the hard version gear. Why does the fact that there is an EE version out there for the endgamers bother you? It has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the game.

[Hafeal]

Personally, this is the exact stance I've been so repelled by. Of course you like having the best gear, but if you acquire it while doing non-EE content - then you are necessarily getting something for nothing.

I think saying "its not fun to play elite" is a cop out argument to just get the best gear without having to work for it.

If you don't like elite - then get the hard version gear. Why does the fact that there is an EE version out there for the endgamers bother you? It has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the game.

I disagree. Tiered loot is simply an exercise in dividing players and creating epeen displays.

Elite is supposed to be challenging - then run it for challenge.

I am ok to make great loot drop at an increased rate as part of the apparent 'incentive' uber players need beyond the 'challenge' so many claim they crave. Otherwise, it should be the same loot you get at other levels. Everybody wants to win the lottery. Give players who may not be cut for Elite for whatever reason (rl, play ability, lack of grouping, etc) a chance to roll a 100 on the loot table.

[slarden]

Personally, this is the exact stance I've been so repelled by. Of course you like having the best gear, but if you acquire it while doing non-EE content - then you are necessarily getting something for nothing.

I think saying "its not fun to play elite" is a cop out argument to just get the best gear without having to work for it.

If you don't like elite - then get the hard version gear. Why does the fact that there is an EE version out there for the endgamers bother you? It has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the game.

I run with a mix of players from some of the absolute best players on Sarlona to some very casual folks. With some of the top players I zerged EE from 20 to 28 every 3 days for about 6 months straight when the ETR system came out until we got burned out on it and slowed down and started doing other things as well.

I run on multiple difficulties at different times based mostly on what the people I run with want to run. I have guildies that don't like to run EE and I have friends that only run EE. I run with both.

I don't like the non-upgradable tiered loot because I know if I run with my more casual friends on EH I have no chance to get the items I am looking for so I feel like I am losing progress. This is a social game first and I think the tiered loot is bad for the social aspect of the game because it creates a divide.

The original shroud didn't over-reward elite and yet everyone seemed to run together and enjoy it. People would run elite for the challenge and favor and then run normal or hard other times. That is kind of how I like to run - different difficulties depending on who I am running with. I don't like disallowing people in a party because I know we will have to carry them. I prefer "all welcome" parties.

I do not envy you or most of the people on the forums that consider themselves elite, but I don't like a system that segregates our population because running anything but EE means you have no chance to get those items running EH. So when my friends that prefer EH ask me to run a quest I make no progress at all towards getting the items I need. I think tiered loot is bad for the social aspect of the game.

I like the mythic concept because it gives an incentive to run elite, but doesn't over-reward it. Also, when I flash my mythic helm it's clear it's something I earned and not something I bought from the ASAH. It means alot to people when they earn their own loot and it's the only way to get the loot is by earning it.

[Cetus]

I run with a mix of players from some of the absolute best players on Sarlona to some very casual folks. With some of the top players I zerged EE from 20 to 28 every 3 days for about 6 months straight when the ETR system came out until we got burned out on it and slowed down and started doing other things as well.

I run on multiple difficulties at different times based mostly on what the people I run with want to run. I have guildies that don't like to run EE and I have friends that only run EE. I run with both.

I don't like the non-upgradable tiered loot because I know if I run with my more casual friends on EH I have no chance to get the items I am looking for so I feel like I am losing progress. This is a social game first and I think the tiered loot is bad for the social aspect of the game because it creates a divide.

The original shroud didn't over-reward elite and yet everyone seemed to run together and enjoy it. People would run elite for the challenge and favor and then run normal or hard other times. That is kind of how I like to run - different difficulties depending on who I am running with. I don't like disallowing people in a party because I know we will have to carry them. I prefer "all welcome" parties.

I do not envy you or most of the people on the forums that consider themselves elite, but I don't like a system that segregates our population because running anything but EE means you have no chance to get those items running EH. So when my friends that prefer EH ask me to run a quest I make no progress at all towards getting the items I need. I think tiered loot is bad for the social aspect of the game.

I like the mythic concept because it gives an incentive to run elite, but doesn't over-reward it. Also, when I flash my mythic helm it's clear it's something I earned and not something I bought from the ASAH. It means alot to people when they earn their own loot and it's the only way to get the loot is by earning it.

I sympathize with this perspective, however our current situation has shown to be the obvious dead-end given the atrophying end-game condition. Most of the end-gamers are resorted to besting each others completion times on the order of seconds in solo completion zergs to stay mildly entertained.

The part in red:

So, when you run with friends on lower difficulty - then you should be content with giving up the loot incentive, since you have social incentive in that instance. Otherwise without tiered loot, the EE crowd is forced to give up EE-level loot incentive - since all of the gear can simply be acquired on normal - with challenge being the only temporary incentive until a quest is completed to ones satisfaction. Then said content collects dust.

You see, much as how people say "challenge should be enough" to run EE, I say "social incentive should be enough to run EH and sacrifice the prospect of gaining an EE level item". Get it some other time when you run EE. But, at least EVERYONE can gain that EE, and not have to suffer a reward-less end-game just so your time with your friend doesn't go without progress.

If you want a medical degree, you actually have to go to medical school to get it.

Currently, we're giving out medical degrees to high school graduates.

[slarden]

I sympathize with this perspective, however our current situations has shown to be the obvious dead-end given the atrophying end-game condition. Most of the end-gamers are resorted to besting each others completion times on the order of seconds in solo completion zergs to stay mildly entertained.

The part in red:

So, when you run with friends on lower difficulty - then you should be content with giving up the loot incentive, since you have social incentive in that instance. Otherwise without tiered loot, the EE crowd is forced to give up EE-level loot incentive - since all of the gear can simply be acquired on normal - with challenge being the only temporary incentive until a quest is completed to ones satisfaction. Then said content collects dust.

If you want a medical degree, you actually have to go to medical school to get it.

Currently, we're giving out medical degrees to high school graduates.

This is a social game first. The devs need to determine whether the negative social impact is worth giving the exclusive loot to the few people that want it.

Elite is already over-rewarded in my opinion. In the other 2 games I am familiar with there is extreme diminishing returns when you run the most difficult content. It's intended to be an endless grind for the 1% and DDO needs to seriously look at that model which is what we had prior to U14. If anything I think Turbine needs to look at rewarding elite less including getting rid of BB and replacing it with a grouping bonus.

I think tiered loot has it's place in maybe a quest chain here and there. Not in every quest chain. Exclusive tiered loot should never exist in raids.

I realize from other comments you made that you think of this game as a competition with other players. My experience is that this a minority viewpoint and most people treat DDO like the cooperative game it is intended to be. There is nothing wrong with your approach, but I don't want to play the game that way.

It's really up to Turbine. They are constantly changing their direction and I hope they just pick a strategy and stick with it. I think the current situation with mythic items and very rare cool things that like Jibbers blades are the way to go. They need some unbound items for the ASAH that people can sell, but I hope they also keep rare things that can only be earned and are bta.

[Cetus]

This is a social game first. The devs need to determine whether the negative social impact is worth giving the exclusive loot to the few people that want it.

Elite is already over-rewarded in my opinion. In the other 2 games I am familiar with there is extreme diminishing returns when you run the most difficult content. It's intended to be an endless grind for the 1% and DDO needs to seriously look at that model which is what we had prior to U14. If anything I think Turbine needs to look at rewarding elite less including getting rid of BB and replacing it with a grouping bonus.

I think tiered loot has it's place in maybe a quest chain here and there. Not in every quest chain. Exclusive tiered loot should never exist in raids.

I realize from other comments you made that you think of this game as a competition with other players. My experience is that this a minority viewpoint and most people treat DDO like the cooperative game it is intended to be. There is nothing wrong with your approach, but I don't want to play the game that way.

It's really up to Turbine. They are constantly changing their direction and I hope they just pick a strategy and stick with it. I think the current situation with mythic items and very rare cool things that like Jibbers blades are the way to go. They need some unbound items for the ASAH that people can sell, but I hope they also keep rare things that can only be earned and are bta.

Well, yes competition is a part of it. But the other part is also the social grouping factor. This is where the lack of challenge becomes palpable - groups are no longer needed to coordinate and strategize to take down some tough boss or mob encounter. And without any carrot, this content will get completed to satisfaction within a week - and then we're satisfied with a good pat on our backs for getting through it.....and? What will make us return aside from the occasional desire to relive that experience a few days later.

I submit that both challenge AND reward are necessary for long-lived endgame content. The people who run normal or hard are appropriately rewarded, regardless of what the reason is they're running it. If it's a social reason, then endure the hard-level loot until you can get back in on EE - or bring your hard-level player to EE and push him/her a bit.

But for a person to say that they want the best loot without wanting to break a sweat is one of the most repugnant ideas in a game with such evolved character advancement systems.

Where is the high of finally pulling that long-sought after item (SOS shard anyone? old epic marilith chain, chaosblades, first ever TOD set anyone?) today? It doesn't exist - it is all guaranteed, and the whole experience of venturing out and risking wipe after wipe just to get some new badass sword is cheapened and made obsolete as a result of these cries of entitlement by those who just can't make it.

[slarden]

Well, yes competition is a part of it. But the other part is also the social grouping factor. This is where the lack of challenge becomes palpable - groups are no longer needed to coordinate and strategize to take down some tough boss or mob encounter. And without any carrot, this content will get completed to satisfaction within a week - and then we're satisfied with a good pat on our backs for getting through it.....and? What will make us return aside from the occasional desire to relive that experience a few days later.

I submit that both challenge AND reward are necessary for long-lived endgame content. The people who run normal or hard are appropriately rewarded, regardless of what the reason is they're running it. If it's a social reason, then endure the hard-level loot until you can get back in on EE - or bring your hard-level player to EE and push him/her a bit.

But for a person to say that they want the best loot without wanting to break a sweat is one of the most repugnant ideas in a game with such evolved character advancement systems.

Where is the high of finally pulling that long-sought after item (SOS shard anyone? old epic marilith chain, chaosblades, first ever TOD set anyone?) today? It doesn't exist - it is all guaranteed, and the whole experience of venturing out and risking wipe after wipe just to get some new badass sword is cheapened and made obsolete as a result of these cries of entitlement by those who just can't make it.

I would point to the great success of shroud and argue that is the model that will appeal to the bulk of the player base not exclusive loot.

I am already taking a hit when I run with friends that want to run on EH - I get lower drop rates and less saga reward. What you are arguing is that I have a 0% chance to get an item instead of a lower drop rate. I find this to be have a very negative social impact that divides the player base.

If you look up the word entitlement I think it is you who fit the definition. You are saying that people having a lower drop rate isn't good enough - only people that run your way should have access to the best items. That precisely fits the definition of entitlement.

"Entitlement: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)"

Someone farming for a mythic helm on EH would take 10x longer on average to get their item vs. EE. I have no idea what you are talking about breaking a sweat. If someone wants to run EH they may never even get the item, they just have a chance.

For me this is a cooperative and social game. I hope Turbine keeps that in mind when designing loot and loot drop rates.

As for super rare items Turbine has those and they are called mythics. They not be as rare as eSos, but they are not exactly easy to get either. I hope to see more things like Jibbers blade - something that is unique, highly desirable and doesn't add player power.

[Ausdoerrt]

We don't plan on changing the explorer area or revamping it for a new difficulty. It will still be there for lower level characters.

Sev~

Hi Sev,

Any word if you plan to look into the issue where players from Ukraine are blocked from using the DDO Store?

Would appreciate any response/conversation on this issue, as I and other players from the region would very much like to buy the great new content you have planned in the coming months. Thanks!