Potential changes to healing amplification

[Delacroix21]

There is a lot of whining about the BF reconstruct SLA but I should point out that until BF was added, the only WF you saw were Sorcs/wizards and later artificers, with VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS.


This heal amp change will push the clock back towards making WF/BF/pale masters less viable once again by comparison.


Humans are still the most abundant race in ddo not BF, by a HUGE margin.

[GWolfe]

you just broke down my main.

so it looks like this isn't the "answer" we were hoping for in barbarian self sufficiency. well, hopefully there is more to come.

I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

[Qhualor]

I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

eh? you want a class to be dependent on others for healing? the game has changed too much for that to happen again and wont see much support for it other than a couple others im expecting to see in that barb thread. even with the changes to Paladin, a barb still should be at least competitive with straight up dps. i would look into your build to see if you can make some tweaks.

[Madja]

Then why did it change in the latter, and not the former? Not trying to pick on you, but it seems like the math is skewed in one example or the other.

I might be misunderstanding the problem here, but if you're referring to the fact that Crown of Summer didn't change the % in the first example it's simply because he accidentally typed in the wrong numbers at paladin t4 and t5.
It should read t3 196% -> t4 215% -> t5 237% and then end up in 272% at Crown of the Summer.

I'm sorry if you were talking about something different.


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In regards to the proposed change, I have mixed feelings about it...

I think it's great if it'll allow you to start putting HAmp on a greater variety of items and if you can include negative and repair amp that just sounds awesome!

On the other hand I feel that it'll just make HAmp into another "oldschool" toughness feat. By this I mean that almost everyone will be getting it, simply because it's such a huge boost for such a small cost, thereby making it a necessity and removing any real choice.
It'll buff many builds FOTM builds that don't really need it and it'll nerf some builds that desperately need it as HAmp is the only thing they have going for them.
There are many other builds that need a buff as well (especially melees), but I feel that this change is just a step in the direction of making all builds play virtually the same.
I understand that you want to make effects to be useful even at small numbers, but when most builds are able to reach the AC/HAmp/PPR/etc. "sweetspot" it just waters down build diversity.

I'm sorry if it didn't really make much sense, it's pretty late and I found it hard to describe my thoughts about this. I'm just worried that if you continue to destroy flavor builds (which are already underpowered), you'll also destroy what makes this game so special compared to the other generic MMOs.

[GWolfe]

eh? you want a class to be dependent on others for healing? the game has changed too much for that to happen again and wont see much support for it other than a couple others im expecting to see in that barb thread. even with the changes to Paladin, a barb still should be at least competitive with straight up dps. i would look into your build to see if you can make some tweaks.

I think that generalization is flawed insofar as the reason that people have moved to self sufficient builds is the fact that there is little incentive to play a build that is not. Which hurts game play and raiding in particular imo. The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

Ok Now let's take a look at my paly vs barb base damage, just to keep it simple. I used the buffs that I have running 90% of the time I'm in quest for both classes. Barb has a 5.3[1d12] +82 with 55 melee power in Fury. So his base damage is roughly 135-226 As for the Paladin his is 6.3[1d12] +85 with 69 melee power in Crusader. Making his 154-272. And as of this latest update Frenzy/ Death Frenzy does not come close to the bonus light damage paly gets. No real need to get into destinies either. I will allow that the Paly has completionest feat as well as epic completionest but that's still negligible compared to how much weaker barbs are.

[Toro12]

Just as a preface ; I've re done the math , there will be minor if any changes to my "healing amp" monk.
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I can appreciate the delicacy with which the proposed changes have been though out.

I'd be a bit ticked if I were one of the few running 6-700% amp (which was my final goal) getting dropped to 450-500%.

I'm guessing about 75% of the melee will get a buff. That will be those that have thrown on a pair of 30% gloves and called it a day. They will get a huge buff no getting their amp doubled for free. Even more so if augments are introduced as they will be able to just slot an extra x%.

those that have gloves and a pair of the 20% bracers that were available for a short time. Will get a decent buff but less so as they may only gain the double and the ability to free a gear slot and throw an augment in.


For amp heavy builds such as mine it will be pretty much status quo as the unique items that are taking slots probably will not be replicated in augments , but our amp will stay roughly the same. Maybe a minor side effect as I'll be able to drop DT vestments for augments.

Those that went full on amp nuts lose total amp and will only be able to replace one maybe 2 pieces of gear for augments.
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I don't normally like this kind of argument but Im thinking the heavy and extreme amp crowd will probably come back with this ;
'We spent weeks grinding DT runes to get our amp and months grinding epic claw gloves, now every yahoo and his brother can just augment slot that schotca ? '

For such an argument I'd love to see heal amp augments only available in a restrictive color. Definitely not yellow as has been suggested. Blue or red may be more appropriate.

[Qhualor]

I think that generalization is flawed insofar as the reason that people have moved to self sufficient builds is the fact that there is little incentive to play a build that is not. Which hurts game play and raiding in particular imo. The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

Ok Now let's take a look at my paly vs barb base damage, just to keep it simple. I used the buffs that I have running 90% of the time I'm in quest for both classes. Barb has a 5.3[1d12] +82 with 55 melee power in Fury. So his base damage is roughly 135-226 As for the Paladin his is 6.3[1d12] +85 with 69 melee power in Crusader. Making his 154-272. And as of this latest update Frenzy/ Death Frenzy does not come close to the bonus light damage paly gets. No real need to get into destinies either. I will allow that the Paly has completionest feat as well as epic completionest but that's still negligible compared to how much weaker barbs are.

well, blue bars didn't want to "babysit" and others didn't want to be "babysat". the game had started moving in the direction of solo friendly and casual play. when EDs came along, it became quite easy for pretty much any build to twist self healing and get their umd up high enough to matter without any sacrifice to build. epic mob damage was increasingly getting higher so you needed dps > heals making defense and ranged builds king, which barbs are not designed to be. there are still some that like to play healer, but there are not many around, especially since the past few years its expected for everyone to be self sufficient. this is part of the reason why barbs all but died out. the game improved in self healing, but barbs fell behind still having to resort to potions. self healing has been around for too long and making 1 class dependent on others to survive wont make things better in the game. you would need to do the same thing to all melees, but that would cause a huge stir in the game.

honestly would need an actual build break down on what feats, enhancements, gear, stats etc both classes have to do a fair comparison and why your paladin out dps' your barbarian. about a week and a half ago i just finished off my TRs paladin lives and did see much improved dps, but still noticeably less than what my barbarian can do who has less up to date named gear. i would save that conversation for the barb thread though as this is about heal amp.

[Munkenmo]

IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

My tank has the maximum possible healing amp in the game and is getting yet another a huge nerf . Once upon a time this build had access to the full benefits of the defensive prestiges, then I had to equip a shield. Now you're killing my healing amp too.

half elf, 18paladin, 2monk.

base 1.0

passives.
1.15 past lives

Enahancements
1.1 helf
1.1 helf
1.1 monk dil (not enough ap to take both monk dils and all 3 kotc enhancements)
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc

Short term boost
2 Glorious stand

Gear

1.1 finger necklace
1.1 dragon touched
1.2 dragon touched
1.25 firestance + jidz tet ka bracers
1.3 gloves

Destinies
1.1 unyielding
1.103336 exalted angel

Buffs
1.1 ship buff
1.15 druid crown of summer


How to work out and do in game.
Take off all gear, reset all enhancements.

1.0 *1.15 past life = 1.15

put on fleshmaker necklace
1.15+.1 = 1.25

Now order doesn't matter, but redo all your AP's, put on all your gear, twist in your 10% from EA and get into undying sentinal.

1.25
*
1.1 helf
1.1 helf
1.1 monk dil
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 dragon touched
1.2 dragon touched
1.25 firestance + bracers
1.3 gloves
1.1 unyielding
1.103336 exalted angel
1.1 ship buff
1.15 druid crown of summer
-------------------
729.2% healing amp

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2 Glorious stand which I could save for emergencies
----------------
1458.775% healing amp

[Tuffgar]

I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

I dont claim to be a super/master/expert at game balance, but when every other class except yours can do something like self healing, that sort of makes your class weaker. Normally that would come with signicant power in other areas to compensate, but right now every class is more or less out performing the barb.

If you don't see a problem with that, then maybe you need to reconsider your point of view.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

Aye, for myself this will be a buff as I have 3pally PL 30% item and 20% item and very very rarely use finger necklace, so good for me.

On the other hand I dislike how they seem keen on normalizing builds so we end up all having the same thing. The best thing about DDO is the variety of builds from super gimp to super min/max strong and I hate how they seem to want to get rid of this so every boy and his dog can get things with very little sacrifice.

So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Unfortunately this is also puts WF/BF and Palemaster builds at a comparative disadvantage as basically every other equally geared player will have greater healing power.


Can we see heal amp items changed OVERALL to increase repair/positive/negative energy? Rather then just one? This is sorely needed.

Must agree, if they are going this route make hamp like the heal skill adding to both pos and neg at least. I leave out repair cause well I dislike toasters...so up with humanity and down the with the machine

[Janitorman]

So I agree with others that having multiple items with different values stack is different from other systems. Supposing these ideas are all "potential changes" and not already set in stone I suggest to change the idea in a slightly different way. Leave the enhancements, ED abilities, past lives as multiplicative bonuses. Since items seem to be one of the biggest reasons for this change, here is where the cutback happens. Only the highest value would count, with different bonus types stacking by adding instead of multiplying. In order to keep a small buff to majority, nerf to maxers, still double values.

Some math and results, all taken at end game:

(buffs)*(ED)*(enh)*(pastlives)*(sum of items)


All out heal amp:
1.1*1.1*1.03*1.03*1.04*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.0 5*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.15(1+.60+.50+10) = 7.27 or 727%

I suggest that crown of summer be an addition since it is a weapon buff, unique so it stacks. which would bring the total to: 777%

someone with small investment:
1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.15*(1+.60) = 296%

someone with almost no investment:

1.1*1.1*(1+.60) = 194%

feel free to add or remove any number of bonuses to see different values yourself

All out builds get a small nerf, others get buffed. New items can be added with appropriate values since they are only added instead of multiplied, having a much smaller effect as bigger values emerge. Only the highest value of each item type stacks, similar to other systems eliminating confusion. Some numbers may need to be tweaked slightly but my proposal seems like it can meet all of the design goals for this change... unless one of the unstated goals is specifically to nerf heal amp builds. Also I would think this would be easier by changing only item portion of code rather than having to change all of the code, but not a video game programmer so not sure there.

feedback welcome, feel free to shoot it down

[SilkofDrasnia]

Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?

[Violith]

Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?

I'd say no, no reason to adjust ML for it as they're becoming ratings, not doubling the amount given, which when put into the formula would give nearly the same result as they do now. so... no reason for them to.

[EllisDee37]

Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?

Dodge items didn't have their ML change when then went from multiplicative to additive, including a similar doubling of effect.

The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

In your "most fun" times, with a dedicated healer, were you the one playing the dedicated healer?

[moo_cow]

Sort of related question here, but are scroll mastery enhancements going to become additive instead of multiplicative, for the effects of heal scrolls and such? Or are they remain the same?

It looks like I will be going from 417 on a heal scroll to 520 so I do like these changes at first glance. I do find it odd however that there seems to be a continuing theme to make healers obsolete since the majority of players will see an increase in self healing. (as far as I can tell so far)

[nibel]

I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.

This. You have to choose between doubling the values, or allowing multi-item stacking. The change to an additive system is welcome.

IMO, you are setting your "equalizer" level too high. What is the equalizer level? The combination that will end up being the same in the old and new system. This is your base for math changes. Anything under this should be buffed, and anything over this should be nerfed.

IMO, the equal level should have been a first life human paladin (or monk) 20, with all healing amp enhancements, and using a single 30% item (usually, the PDK gloves). Not an half-elf pally/monk multilife with half dozen hamp items. But you on Turbine should have the numbers of which builds are more common on your average player.

And please, make at least the regular, generic, convalescent stuff apply to both positive and repair healing. BLADEforgeds may be abusing their recon buttons, but WARforgeds needs new ways to keep repairs viable. Right now, it is easier to make WF heal more from positive energy than repair.

========================

On other news, since every existing item will have a new bonus type to stack, what will they be? 10% becomes enchantment bonus, 20% equipment bonus, 30% exceptional bonus, jidz stay insight, fleshmaker profane bonus?

[Grailhawk]

What type will be given to the following items?

Epic Gloves of the Claw
Purple Dragon Gauntlets
ToD Rings
Convalescence (20%) random loot
Convalescence (30%) random loot

[SilkofDrasnia]

What type will be given to the following items?

Epic Gloves of the Claw
Purple Dragon Gauntlets
ToD Rings
Convalescence (20%) random loot
Convalescence (30%) random loot

My guess is Eclaw, 30% conv and pdk gaunt. will have the same type and not stack with themselves
ToD ring and other 20% like the 20% conv will be same type and not stack with themselves
Same for 10% type items.

30%, 20% and 10% items will be three different types.

What the "type" will actually be called isn't important only that diff types only will stack.

That is what I understood from what Sev posted anyhoots.

[Grailhawk]

My guess is Eclaw, 30% conv and pdk gaunt. will have the same type and not stack.
ToD ring and other 20% like the 20% conv will be same type and not stack.

Same for 10% type items.

What the "type" will actually be called isn't important only that diff types only will stack.

That is what I understood from what Sev posted anyhoots.

Yes, that's what they have implied but until they give them a name we don't know for sure. I don't really expect an answer until Lamania comes back but wanted to ask.

[Seikojin]

I think it is a nice revamp to healing amp. Two big reasons:
1. Buff for the majority who struggle to get their playstyle accepted in EE because they can't fit enough healing amp into it.
2. Nerf to those who cry for more challenge.

I am excited to see the other changes coming down the pipe. So when is it going to be on Lamma? Should get those tests done quick