Potential changes to healing amplification

[Sgt_Hart]

I love it, I'm a big fan of the change, and unifying all the not-dnd-systems to use teh same layout and math. That said..

Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.

Source            Multiplier    Product            
Base for Living        1        100%        12 Monk
Fleshmaker        1.1        110%        5 Paladin
Human 1            1.1        121%            
2            1.1        133%            
3            1.1        146%            
Monks Shintao        1.05        154%            
3            1.05        161%            
6            1.05        169%            
12            1.05        178%                
Paladin t3        1.1        196%            
Paladin 4        1.1        272%            
Paladin 5        1.1        272%            
Crown of Summer (Druid)    1.15        272%            
Item 10%        1.1        300%            
Item 20%        1.2        360%            
Item 30%        1.3        467%            
Paladin PL x3        1.15        538%            
Jidz-Tet'ka        1.25        672%            
Guild            1.1        739%            
Exalted Angel        1.03        761%            
Exalted Angel        1.03        784%            
Exalted Angel        1.04        816%            
Unyielding Sentinel    1.1        897%

How this would look with the new system:

Source            Multiplier    Product            
Base for Living        1.0        1.0        12 Monk
Fleshmaker        +20        1.2        5 Paladin
Human 1            +20        1.4            
2            +20        1.6            
3            +20        1.8            
Monks Shintao        +10        1.9            
3            +10        2.0            
6            +10        2.1            
12            +10        2.2            
Paladin t3        +20        2.4            
Paladin 4        +20        2.6            
Paladin 5        +20        2.8            
Crown of Summer (Druid)    +30        3.1            
Item 10%        +20        3.3            
Item 20%        +40        3.7            
Item 30%        +60        4.3            
Paladin PL x3        +30        4.6            
Jidz-Tet'ka        +50        5.1            
Guild            +20        5.3            
Exalted Angel        +6        5.36            
Exalted Angel        +6        5.42            
Exalted Angel        +8        5.5            
Unyielding Sentinel    +20        5.7

As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Sev~

That's some "Barbarian" math right there...

[Scraap]

Will you be looking into vampiric and regeneration effects in conjunction with the revamp, or do you consider that out of scope?

[Selchin]

How will War Forged Healer's Friend by treated?

Since I haven't seen this answered yet... I'm curious about this as well. Will the warforged base healing penalty take the form of a -50 healing amp rating and the Healer's friend enhancements just add 10 healing amp each, or will the penalty and healer's friend enhancements still affect the base multiplier and thus be independent from the rest of the healing amp system?

[Tesrali]

+1, if it makes you guys comfy enough to release augments, =)

(Personally, am in the sweet zone of about 300% atm, so not much will change for me.)

However...

if it's not broke don't fix it!

pls be careful haha

[Tesrali]

Changes to barbarians!? Please tell us more!

I know everyone is very excited to see them made viable in ee content again.

Can we introduce a new kind of silver flame pot for them in Anauroch? ^^ Not everyone runs all their silver flame favor, especially iconics.

[haulindonkey]

Okay, now that we cleared the issue with the old items:

Are you really sure you wanna buff pretty much every build out there with these changes? The changes to PRR, MRR, Vanguard tree, Melee Power etc with the latest update gave us already way too much power than we probably needed. Toons are in almost god mode, even on EE. This change will make questing and raiding, for most of us, even easier.

I'm not really sure this buff is needed at all. And still, I don't see a reason for this change. If itemization was your problem, adding more Heal amp choices would have been a better solution. But you guys at Turbine don't like easy solutions so not expecting it.

I'm with Wizza on this. I welcome the changes, won't nerf all but the most extreme builds and will buff many.... But, could we maybe get a content/monster balance after we fix this.... So EE is again challenging to most of the populace? Oh and yes please fix exploits and long-standing bugs. Maybe with the Barbarian love in next update (needed), sneak in some re-balancing of content to compensate for the massive melee buffs that have come in recently (speaking as someone who plays a lot of melee builds). I would like EE to be at least moderately challenging again.

Thanks in advance<

Golehmus War Skald

[davmuzl]

Can you explain what the problem with adding new 20% and 10% items at higher lvls would be?

I like the idea of heal amp enhancements in the barbarian trees.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

The amounts from gear will be huge, though, and overshadow the effects from past lives and enhancements, even if they are doubled.

I'm looking forward to these changes because with them comes both complaints and praises, one praise for example will come from Fleshy artificers with the Ring Of The Master Artifice equipped.....

[Severlin]

I love it, I'm a big fan of the change, and unifying all the not-dnd-systems to use teh same layout and math. That said..




That's some "Barbarian" math right there...

IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

The amounts from gear will be huge, though, and overshadow the effects from past lives and enhancements, even if they are doubled.

agree - several Past Life Feats need to be updated (Barb Paly as example of 2).

Do agree with Dev's - this is in the spirit of not nerfing but buffing weaker classes while fixing a major exploit (HAMPster builds)

[Sgt_Hart]

IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

Then why did it change in the latter, and not the former? Not trying to pick on you, but it seems like the math is skewed in one example or the other.

[bbqzor]

Greetings, Today we want to discuss healing amplification.

Yea hi.

Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players ... Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification.

(paraphrasing by me to maintain focus, no turns of phrase intended, etc)

Okay. You are saying:
1) We are changing Healing Amp because of goals
2) One goal is to have no or minimal nerfs
3) One goal is to promote future itemization
4) One goal is to make it useful in smaller amounts

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing. The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

Lets examine these changes in light of the above goals:

1) Yes, its a change. And not one which is hard to understand (current heal amp can be because displayed values, actual values, and the math rounding involved isnt 100% transparent to all players). Additionally, its somewhat intuitive in that it mirrors other systems.... but this could be a case where its not. Like, will two 30% items turn into two +60 items which stack for +120? Or will the 30% turn into +60 which is then typed as +60 Insightful? And that will stack with a 20% turned +40 Exceptional? And if so, thats going to be a bit confusing, as well as very difficult to manage from an itemization standpoint (as a player, ie, trying to cram the different types in will be no different than now... a giant pain... even if there are more around). I would hope and suggest a great deal of thought be given to how a) obvious and b) accessible these new things will be. Right now, people who get it know you can do 10 w/ 20 w/ 30... this new system sounds exactly the same. In which case, why not just change the math and not bother with the rest of it? Somewhat of a wash here. Its new, but its more "new math" than "new system".

2) This part is fine. The little bit of math I did shows basically staying in the same ballpark for most common cases. Super amp builds, while perhaps fun, were not wholly end game viable (ee etc) already as they cost too much to achieve. While generally I dislike seeing character options go, having one which already had a lot of limitations in addition to being difficult to put together become a bit worse isnt that bad. Generally, this is about as good as can be expected. It is superior, in terms of player benefit, to what I would have considered doing were it my call, so not much to add here other than fair is fair and this largely is.

3) Heres where I think you could strike out, relatively speaking. Its only going to compound the currently bad situation. Right now, if you want amp, you have to use one of the few combos with it. Going forward, sure you can put amp on more things. Yes, that gate is lifted. But you STILL have itemization problems. Now there are even more mutations competing for space on items. And like some other mods, this is one everyone will "need" (in whatever form works for thier guy, repair amp, neg amp, etc). It is very difficult to run a character today who doesnt have a resistance item, for example. So they are not super difficult to get. If you make healing amp like that, two things will happen. First, itll become so common that it basically just bumps everyones power level up and you have to make harder content to compensate, creating a situation where it goes from a "need" to an actual mechanical real need. Second, if it doesnt become so common, it will be exactly as it is now. If you want it, you have to use the few items with it, and just hope they randomly happen to have other useful modifiers on them for your character in question. While the proposed changes are good, maybe even better than anticipated, they dont actually do much of anything for itemization. It creates another staple we either have to have, or have to make sacrifices for, and thats exactly the case now.

4) This goal is addressed well. It is directly more useful in smaller amounts. A lone item which is currently 30% in effect becomes a 60%, a lone enhancement line which might be two 10%'s now yielding 21% on live becomes 40%, etc. This is the goal best met of all of them, actually. No longer is this a go big or go home situation, a little bit will meaningfully help.

A few more comments:

Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.

This goes back to what I said before. If its a matter of stacking an enhancement, exceptional, and insight bonus (chosen because thats how ability scores work now and everyone seems to get that, in parallel to 10/20/30% amp items), hey thats great, but its no different than things are now. Except youre saying the mods will show up on more things, more often. Ok so we all get greater access to the ability, and the ability helps us more... but we still have to fit in on our guys somehow. Other than making it less "youre pigeonholed into this one item because its the only amp item" (historically: gloves slot, Im looking at you)... Im not sure much will change. You will REALLY have to make this an "in addition to usual mods" type of mutation to achieve what you are describing, and Im not sure thats good.

Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Ill take your word for this, didnt do all the math. I would like to point out that choosing this break point (as opposed to say 300%) really limits the effect of many "high end" mutations like Vampirism.

I would request, as they are popular and this hurts them, that this also be made more available. As a related mutation and something else that helps address self healing (largely why healing amp is desired), it should perhaps also be increased and/or made available. Maybe its time for Epic Vampirism for 2d3 or something. When we can easily hit 1k hps on many builds, getting like 2 hp back per swing isnt all that cool. The amp changes make changes here possible (since 1 pt no longer potentially turns into like 10), Id like to see them too.

Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.

Can we safely assume that current Enhancement stacking will go unaffected? As in, human paladins and monks are still fine... half elf monks still wont stack... etc. Theres a lot of talk of things changing in regards to the future, it would be nice to be explicitly told that no ones current combination is getting voided (even if the values of said combination change).

We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model ... Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

You twice mention this... heres the deal. Barbarians cannot heal themselves while raged. Healing Amp does not address or fix this. And I am not trying to suggest they should be able to heal while raged (true statement or not, its a whole different topic).

I am merely pointing out that they could have 1000% amp, and still wont be able to use it (other than passives like epic primal past life). This will NOT address their dependency on others to function. That dependency is the core from which stems many of the class's issues. They NEED it addressed, at some level. No other class is so starkly put at the mercy of other players, and frankly its not always that fun to be "helpless". I have a barbarian, Ive used him in EE content and he does okay, but its just not my first choice for this (and other) reasons.

I strongly feel they SHOULD get healing amp in their trees. So this is a good sign. I just want to be clear that this is not THE fix to the issue. It is part of the fix. I hope there are other components being looked at as well which will create an overall package that fully comes to terms with their play style drawbacks. They dont have to fully go away, many classes have some tradeoffs sure, but they need to shift away from the severity of their limitations.

Healing amp alone doesnt do any shifting. Youre still exactly as dependent on everyone else. It just takes less effort for them to help you. That helps out others, not the barbarian.

Having a healing amplification augment is the type of item we envisioned when we were looking at changes.

Now THIS could definitely address your "future itemization" goals. Especially if you actually put one out for all the different types (neg, repair, etc). If you are looking at expanding our choices into the realm of augments, combined with these changes, I strongly feel this would be a winning shift in game paradigm... as long as the augment is NOT some billion run raid timer eating grind to get a single aug... Make it reasonably accessible (to get on several characters for someone not playing the game as a full time job or spending 100s of $) and I think it will work well.

.........

In total, this is a good set for "potential changes". Taken exactly as is, assuming no changes to current "stacking" between existing sources/effects, and then including reasonably accessible healing augments to all types of healing players use, and you have a winning proposal. Especially since it actually does have minimal nerfs to existing cases, unlike many other "minimal nerf" situations weve been through. Its not what I would have done, but its less extreme change now, and more future proof later, so its probably better... and I cant often say that about dev stuff.

As for barbarians, like I said, this isnt a saving change on its own but will see what else comes down the pipe. It needs to be there, but as a part of a larger picture. Once we have that picture, Im sure youll hear about it.

Thanks, I think... saying that feels like a trap. Dont Ref Save me bro.

[PsychoBlonde]

Monks and monk splashes still need healing amp to be survivable.

Not really. Sure, it can be DESIRABLE, but it's not NECESSARY. I never found it worth wearing the godawful gear that you get stuck with.

[PsychoBlonde]

Healing amp alone doesnt do any shifting. Youre still exactly as dependent on everyone else. It just takes less effort for them to help you. That helps out others, not the barbarian.

Barbarians can freely drink potions while raged, including some good ones like collectible turn-in pots (which heal over time, fairly large amounts once you start getting to the Improved and Greater pots) and silver flame pots. Even the BASE SF pot (without the speed penalty) heals 100, nearly as good as a heal scroll. Get some paladin past lives and a bit of healing amp gear and a barbarian should do pretty well, especially if they get some improved damage resistance.

Heck, just getting plain old CSW pots up to the 50/60 range is pretty nice.

[bbqzor]

Barbarians can freely drink potions while raged, including some good ones like collectible turn-in pots (which heal over time, fairly large amounts once you start getting to the Improved and Greater pots) and silver flame pots. Even the BASE SF pot (without the speed penalty) heals 100, nearly as good as a heal scroll. Get some paladin past lives and a bit of healing amp gear and a barbarian should do pretty well, especially if they get some improved damage resistance.

Heck, just getting plain old CSW pots up to the 50/60 range is pretty nice.

Currently, a barb having all 3 paladin lives, a 30 amp item, and (sake of argument) 30 from enhancements (like a human might) currently has 200% amp, meaning a CSW pot might heal them for 40 (assuming 3d6+11 = 20 avg as a baseline). In the new system the same barb would have 250% amp and would heal 50 from the same potion.

Neither case is ever going to result in a 1500 hp epic barbarian being able to meaningfully self heal in a quest. It would take 37 potions to heal up now, and 30 potions after the update. You cannot practically stop to drink 30 pots between every fight.

As for SF pots, the 100 pt pot would heal 250, meaning it would take 5 to heal up (will assume youre not at zero hp to start). Thats one stack every two times you need to heal, since they only stack to 10. In addition, it means your epic barb is basically eating -5 to attack/damage/saves/etc the entire time due to the debuff. On top of devoting an entire bag tab to the same amount of healing a normal person might accomplish with a single stack of scrolls. Then, theres the massive plat cost, as sf pots certainly arent cheap. In total: also not practical.

Lets just agree that at some point potions become impractical and are not a meaningful method of healing in terms of class balance and enhancement design. Sure, they can get you through some parts of heroic well enough, but they are not going to matter 20+. Most of the time they stop mattering much earlier. The problems with barbarian arent how well they do in Waterworks, its that in the end they become so dependent they are difficult to provide contributions with relative to putting anything else in that same group slot.

And thats glossing over the fact the class shouldnt require 3 heroic past lives (in a wholly different class even) to even attempt to function to begin with, its a faulty assumption to even start under. Im sure not everyone will agree, but healing amp isnt going to solve barbarians. Its a component they need, but not the solution they deserve.

[Violith]

I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.

there are plenty of stacking item sets in the game, From stats, to spellpower, and sneak attack. thats why there are differnet bonus types such as artifact, insightful, exceptional, alchemical, enhancement, equipment, etc. all of them can be gotten on 'Equipment' already, they merely provide different types.

[that1guy9]

I like this idea

[Qhualor]

Currently, a barb having all 3 paladin lives, a 30 amp item, and (sake of argument) 30 from enhancements (like a human might) currently has 200% amp, meaning a CSW pot might heal them for 40 (assuming 3d6+11 = 20 avg as a baseline). In the new system the same barb would have 250% amp and would heal 50 from the same potion.

Neither case is ever going to result in a 1500 hp epic barbarian being able to meaningfully self heal in a quest. It would take 37 potions to heal up now, and 30 potions after the update. You cannot practically stop to drink 30 pots between every fight.

As for SF pots, the 100 pt pot would heal 250, meaning it would take 5 to heal up (will assume youre not at zero hp to start). Thats one stack every two times you need to heal, since they only stack to 10. In addition, it means your epic barb is basically eating -5 to attack/damage/saves/etc the entire time due to the debuff. On top of devoting an entire bag tab to the same amount of healing a normal person might accomplish with a single stack of scrolls. Then, theres the massive plat cost, as sf pots certainly arent cheap. In total: also not practical.

Lets just agree that at some point potions become impractical and are not a meaningful method of healing in terms of class balance and enhancement design. Sure, they can get you through some parts of heroic well enough, but they are not going to matter 20+. Most of the time they stop mattering much earlier. The problems with barbarian arent how well they do in Waterworks, its that in the end they become so dependent they are difficult to provide contributions with relative to putting anything else in that same group slot.

And thats glossing over the fact the class shouldnt require 3 heroic past lives (in a wholly different class even) to even attempt to function to begin with, its a faulty assumption to even start under. Im sure not everyone will agree, but healing amp isnt going to solve barbarians. Its a component they need, but not the solution they deserve.

you just broke down my main.

so it looks like this isn't the "answer" we were hoping for in barbarian self sufficiency. well, hopefully there is more to come.

[Singular]

The new system will be great. Well done!

[Delacroix21]

So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Unfortunately this is also puts WF/BF and Palemaster builds at a comparative disadvantage as basically every other equally geared player will have greater healing power.


Can we see heal amp items changed OVERALL to increase repair/positive/negative energy? Rather then just one? This is sorely needed.