Harper tree feedback

[Bolo_Grubb]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

I honestly don't see where I have any points to spare for this tree on my assassin build, but I will play around with it to be sure.

[GeoffWatson]

I honestly don't see where I have any points to spare for this tree on my assassin build, but I will play around with it to be sure.

Yeah, my Monk doesn't have any spare points, but I'll try a Harper-heavy build and see how well it works.

Geoff.

[Throwdown]

Someone test int based pal 14/monk 3/x 3 shuriken tosser and int based monkcher with fury shot?

Edit: dex based is going to be better for shuriken but you can still add to damage on your dex build, which is nice cause normally the base dam on shuriken a sucks..

Shuriken builds COMEPLTELY revolve around dex.

If you want an Int Shuriken build you can already do that with 6 Rogue with Int to thrown damage.

An Int based Shuriken build will be a complete and utter fail.

If you don't understand builds why do you comment on them with the intent of riling up Devs?

[Scrabbler]

1) only melee damage?? this tree is like a common tree for all melee toon.. which is nice. but what about range damage?

Where does Harper give melee damage but not also give ranged?

[Scrabbler]

General comment:

The Harper 41 point capstone is very weak. Even if it had the cooldown reduced from 300 seconds to 30 seconds, I still might not be tempted to use it.

I disagree. I think rogues will heavily invest in this tree. Assassins for sure.
INT for assassinate DC, reflex saves, attack, damage, search, disable.
CON for HP and fort save.
Put whatever is left into WIS for will save and spot.

Unless you were SWF, you'd need your 3rd stat to be Dexterity to qualify for TWF. Note that Harper benefits TWF more than other styles, because the Know Angels damage bonus is not halved for the offhand (and not 150% for THF)

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

The problem with this is you keep giving us way more stuff to spend AP on, but not more AP. Can we *please* get more AP? The fifth bubble at every level. A few AP with every ED level. SOMETHING. Some of my characters have plenty of AP... because they only get two trees and are extremely disinterested in one of them. Other of my characters can't get a third of what they want (my Swashbuckler in particular would rather have the capstone from Spellsinger than SB while having the SB 5th-tier.)

Or possibly a more open way to spend the AP we currently have - most of my characters buy stuff they don't want simply because of the in-tree gating system, which is ridiculous. A bard is a bard is a bard. A bard shouldn't have to spend 20 points in Swashbuckler to get something in the fourth tier; a bard should have to spend X amount of points *as a bard* to get something in the fourth tier. (Probably more than 20. Maybe 30). It makes sense to have a certain amount spent in the tree to get the cores... but within the tree, it should just be gated by amount spent in the CLASS. Similarly, IMHO the racial tree should be gated by amount spent anywhere, not just in the tree.

[Trillea]

The problem with this is you keep giving us way more stuff to spend AP on, but not more AP. Can we *please* get more AP? The fifth bubble at every level. A few AP with every ED level. SOMETHING. Some of my characters have plenty of AP... because they only get two trees and are extremely disinterested in one of them. Other of my characters can't get a third of what they want (my Swashbuckler in particular would rather have the capstone from Spellsinger than SB while having the SB 5th-tier.)

Or possibly a more open way to spend the AP we currently have - most of my characters buy stuff they don't want simply because of the in-tree gating system, which is ridiculous. A bard is a bard is a bard. A bard shouldn't have to spend 20 points in Swashbuckler to get something in the fourth tier; a bard should have to spend X amount of points *as a bard* to get something in the fourth tier. (Probably more than 20. Maybe 30). It makes sense to have a certain amount spent in the tree to get the cores... but within the tree, it should just be gated by amount spent in the CLASS. Similarly, IMHO the racial tree should be gated by amount spent anywhere, not just in the tree.

That ship sailed long ago, people were clamoring to have core AP count for a ll trees and the Devs said no. They want us to waste AP to keep us from completely breaking the game even more than it already is.

[XGF]

Good points.

[Oxarhamar]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

First off I like the Tree.

However do not let the be an excuse not to give Artificer thier 3rd Tree.

While we are on the topic Artificer trees need a revamp.

Pure Artificer fall behind in EE.

BE has very little ranged damage
AT is loaded with enhancements for the Iron defender (that stuff should be in the Iron defender's own enhancements)

I play Arti and I find myself heavily multi classing to pick up Ranged Damage from other classes.

Not even going to touch on rune arms those are whole other issue that needs repair to improve pure Artificer.

[Throwdown]

First off I like the Tree.

However do not let the be an excuse not to give Artificer thier 3rd Tree.

While we are on the topic Artificer trees need a revamp.

Pure Artificer fall behind in EE.

BE has very little ranged damage
AT is loaded with enhancements for the Iron defender (that stuff should be in the Iron defender's own enhancements)

I play Arti and I find myself heavily multi classing to pick up Ranged Damage from other classes.

Not even going to touch on rune arms those are whole other issue that needs repair to improve pure Artificer.

It's insane to me that BE doesn't have more ranged damage increase (or for bastard swords).

[Qhualor]

Actually no, I don't give a rats arse about p2w items in the store but enhancement are integral to character building and the worst kind of gating right up there with the bloody sigils of leveling.

The ONLY way I would be okay with this is if it was favor unlockable in the same manner as 32 point builds are. Meaning get so many favor and it becomes unlocked on that server permanently.

it falls under races and content. you think buying quest packs or Warforge are P2W? lol the tree doesn't automatically give your character this great power or some kind of advantage over other enhancement trees. store items do that like buying past lives.

you are in luck. it looks like Turbine is going to make it a Harper favor unlock so you can earn this OP enhancement tree for free.

[FranOhmsford]

I would love to see other Flavor trees going forward. Perhaps -

Silver Flame Adept - abilities against undead and demons for those classes that struggle against them. Perhaps some longbow enhancements since it is the favored weapon.

So trash then?

Unless that is it seriously buffs Turn Undead {the ACTUAL Turn Undead NOT just another set of other clickies to use instead of!}.

NO Longbow Enhancements are going to mean anything next to AA and Feats - Don't waste this tree on trash Longbow Enhancements!

A Cleric/FvS Tree SHOULD be for Clerics/FvSs NOT for just anyone!!!

Deneith Mercenary - Tactical abilities for the up close and personal types

This would cut too much into PDK.

War Wizards - Casting tricks and abilities. Perhaps Familiars?

Maybe - IF it enhances PDK and AM - I'm fed up of PM being so far ahead!

Yugoloth - ?? Crazy enhancements for out of this world characters? ( I am not sure what the Yugoloths do..Alchemy? Potions? Archon type stuff?)

You do realize Yugoloth are an extra-planar race of Demons right?

The Arcanoloth {which are the ones we see - and work for/with} in Amrath & the Demonweb} are the most humanoid of them and they're Vulpine!

[FranOhmsford]

AP's are an issue.

Need a way to gain more AP's to use in the Harper Tree.
Such as Harper Favor... give Harper tree AP based on favor tiers..
DDO Store..
Some other method of gaining AP's.. Iconic Competionist perhaps....

OR

MAYBE

JUST MAYBE

We could actually get the 2 AP per Epic Level we've been asking for since MotU!

That would be an extra 16 AP at Lvl 28 {total of 100 AP at Lvl 30!} - Hardly OP now is it?

[Oxarhamar]

It's insane to me that BE doesn't have more ranged damage increase (or for bastard swords).

As far as ranged Artificer didn't get much damage in BE because, in heroics it wasn't needed until around LVL 18 you can mostly kill stuff on elite in 1 or 2 shots because, that's 3 or 6 bolts.

They just start to fall off after that.

Agree about BAstard swords as well though I forget them since I don't run a melee Arti any longer and never liked bastard swords to begin with. I ran with Deathnips on my TWF Juggernaut variant.

[FranOhmsford]

As far as ranged Artificer didn't get much damage in BE because, in heroics it wasn't needed until around LVL 18 you can mostly kill stuff on elite in 1 or 2 shots because, that's 3 or 6 bolts.

They just start to fall off after that.

Even at Lvl 10 it takes more than 2 shots to kill Elite Trash at Level!

At level 15+ you're looking at more like 5 or 6 shots {15-18 bolts!} and a LOT of kiting!

Artis start falling off around Lvl 14 {Yes...IF you've maxed everything you can keep going for a few more levels but we're not talking JUST about multi-pastlife fully geared up characters here!}.

[redoubt]

General comment:

The Harper 41 point capstone is very weak. Even if it had the cooldown reduced from 300 seconds to 30 seconds, I still might not be tempted to use it.

Unless you were SWF, you'd need your 3rd stat to be Dexterity to qualify for TWF. Note that Harper benefits TWF more than other styles, because the Know Angels damage bonus is not halved for the offhand (and not 150% for THF)

Good catch. Start with 12 Dex I suppose then. That's still way down from a dex build which will start at 18 or 20.

[Qhualor]

i put myself in the shoes of my barbs, fighter and tempest ranger while looking at the tree. there are a few useful enhancements for my barbs and fighter, but only my ranger could see some benefits from the tree. i cant see my barbs and fighter actually taking AP from the other trees they have invested in and putting it into the Harper tree. if i am somehow able to get rid of 201 error, i would figure this out better on Lam but probably have to wait until live otherwise. if the intention is for a generalized tree, im not seeing it outside of blue bar builds.

[Scrabbler]

We could actually get the 2 AP per Epic Level we've been asking for since MotU!

Adding new heroic action points would be a horrible change. Maybe they could go as far as a raid-loot tome that gives you a permanent +1 action point at level 21, but not beyond that.

That would be an extra 16 AP at Lvl 28 {total of 100 AP at Lvl 30!} - Hardly OP now is it?

Whether it's overpowered would depend a lot on your class split. If you're a single class then maybe you can already get nearly every good enhancement already. But if you are double or triple class, those extra AP can convert into a lot more raw power. (That strong bias in favor of multiclass is one good reason not to add more AP sources)


But even aside from the amount of "power", more AP is still a bad idea because of how it reduces choice in character design. Instead of having semi-hard choices about what to spend your points on, you get in the direction of picking up most everything that's halfway good. Honestly these complaints about "there are new good enhancements so I need more AP to get them all" are pretty hilarious. It is extremely intentional that the store sells more options than you can afford to buy.

[PsychoBlonde]

Vague future suggestion:

Create a Gatekeepers enhancement tree, available to any character (VIP or "earned" it) but locking out the Harper tree. It includes Wisdom and some wisdom-based abilities, Druid-like stuff, anti-Outsider anti-Aberration anti-Elemental features, dismissal SLA, much Abjuration DC, and immunities including a Deathward spell and "Anchoring" (banishment-ward).

OMG YES. Druid in particular needs some build options.

I do like the idea that if they make more "classless" trees like this in the future, they should all be mutually exclusive. Although it might be interesting to see a character built completely out of "classless" trees.

I didn't really expect to see something like this, but it makes sense with the desire some of the devs have expressed to have trees like this. It doesn't look too shady from what I've seen, it's really kind of generic in a lot of ways. Nothing really made me say "I WILL DEFINITELY ADOPT THIS ON MY CHARACTERS". I might build a character to make use of it, sure, but I don't think it'll suddenly dominate anything I've already got.

Although, come to think of it, I could use this tree to "consolidate" my rogue/monk/paladin main. Currently she's strength for hit/damage but she's wis-focused for stunning. I could make her use int for all three with this tree, which might be enough of a consolidation to be worthwhile, particularly since boosting her search was a problem for me. Not a huge problem, but still a problem. Being able to *completely* dump strength as an unneeded stat would be really nice, though. As she currently stands, she needs decent-to-good in EVERY stat. Hence why she's a Completionist.

I might hop on Lam this weekend to try that out.

[PsychoBlonde]

Oh. Wait. "Missile or Melee" weapons. That means NOT HANDWRAPS, right?

Whoops, the *** made my little disappointed complaint look WAY dirtier than it was. So I revised.