Harper tree feedback

[patang01]

Dagolar's comparison hit it on the head...




On a L20 Artificer [ Build ] Heavy repeater/Rune Arm, after getting all the "good" things in the BE tree (43) and points in racial (11), i had ~26 pts left over. There's not much in the AT tree really worth getting to improve upon the build ...those same 20+ pts in the Harper Enh on the other hand, is leaps and bounds a superior choice. This is most likely going to be the case for quite a number of other classes/builds as wells, it's just more noticeable on the struggling classes at the moment.

As a whole, the Harper enhancement tree has a lot of decent things going for it. A few tweaks on things others have pointed out, can certainly improve the tree (or balance it ). I don't believe the P2W tag is appropriate ...until we can see the final version at least.

I didn't call it P2W, I find that kinda silly. P2P. Meaning you buy it you use it (VIP perk is nice, but you still have to pay something to use it).
To me when I first read all the Harper tree features it immediately screamed ARTI. Yet Harper as such brings me an image of caster/bard. This tree is full of things that'd enhance both ranged Arti or Juggernaught type builds. Heck, it even seem to have better Arti pet enhancement then Arcano.

[kmoustakas]

I love the ideas of special enhancement trees usable by all classes. We could/should have more of them but not unlocking by pay, unlocking by favour rewards. I am however AGAINST these having tier 5 powers. They should be hole-fillers, not something similar to destinies. You are aware that currently your epic destiny and not your class/race tells you what you are, right? We don't need that in heroic too.

Amazing idea in general.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

know the angles absolutely must not be an insight bonus. or, items that currently give insight bonuses to tactics need to have a different type bonus. i would also appreciate if this either gave full int mod to tactical dcs and damage, or it gave half int mod to dcs and str instead of damage (could do a multiselector for other stats?). this would increase tactics more and damage a little less which is a better idea imo because no one has problems doing damage, some builds do have problems with dcs. this is the sort of thing (along with aoe stuns) that shouldve been kensei tier 5s/high level cores before anything else, and based on action boosts instead of sp (action boosts + cd for angles, just cd for aoe stuns). make it happen please.

moment of clarity seems pretty useless. i like it, but its a tier 5. and for a +10 dc bonus it should be. but its a tier 5. with 4% uptime. who is going to trade other potential tier 5s for an ability which they can barely use? suppose that having this ability was make or break for your dcs. that means for 12 seconds every 5 minutes you can actually use your dc abilities. that means every 5 minutes you can use 1 stunning blow, 2 stunning fists, 2(3) mass hold monsters (w/ sorc cd). casters could rotate dc spells (hold/mass hold combo = 6 uses on a sorc doing nothing else with sufficient targets and quick targeting skills), but even on a serious stunbot build youd be lucky to get 3 stuns off in that time. if you are landing your dcs enough to justify using them anyway without this ability, then this is just a pointless ability that serves no purpose. either way its not pretty. the only fix which works for everyone that i can see is to either make it a passive or increase the up time, lower the bonus, and make it a tier 4 or core ability.

ap costs are going to be a nightmare. there is really good stuff in here for every build. so with an 80 ap pool, do you make everything cheaper then similar enhancements from other trees so people can use this? or do you use standard ap costs to balance the fact that EVERYONE will be spending points in this for all builds, and for huge gains? anyone going for the higher tiers will be spending more points in this tree than their main class trees, except for the fact that this appeals to pures this way, this is almost a new class. even if ap costs are cheap, i think we will still need more than 80 ap. just give us and extra 8, 10, 12, 16, or maybe 20 ap on taking 20th level. dont need more ap while levelling just at the end. or maybe (old idea incoming) add extra ap to the heroic completionist feat.

being p2p only when it is clearly very powerful and can be used by every race and class seems inherently wrong to me, not because of p2w or f2p reasons or any of that. if this is a tree for everyone, why do only some people get it? i understand its going to become the new bladeforged (a clearly dominant game option that everyone will use and requires a store purchase) but before you do that, here are some suggestions to make it easier to swallow. medium store cost, with significant favor unlockable option. requires max tier pdk and harper favor, and 4000 total favor. unlock per server only. this will require a concerted effort to acquire (4k favor with pdk and harpers all on the same life is something most people who arent going for +5 tomes anyway dont do), many packs to already be owned ($$ spent on the game beforehand), well out of reach of most serious f2pers. in fact this option will be out of reach for most people except a small percentage of premium players who own lots of content and have the game knowledge and ability to achieve those goals (vip doesnt need to jump through that hoop, people who dont own enough content cant reach 4k favor, some people who can reach 4k favor wont be able to). precedents: fvs, arti.
the power of the tree is also a bit much. 6 melee power from a tier 1? compared to 10 melee power from one prestiges capstone? one that allows multiclass and one that does not? over powered (brought to you by captain obvious, who apparently needs to be part of the turbine dev team (unless you guys are just nakedly attempting to gouge us for money by selling more power with no regard for the health of your game. again.)) cut the generalist power level by 1/3, and leave the special and tactical things alone (except to maybe not have them all running on sp...).

finally, the tactical aspects of this tree need to be removed from this vanilla cash cow and put into the enhancement trees of the classes that are actually about dcs, where they frickin belong. captain obvious strikes again, hes waiting for a call from your hr department...

[TankerWade]

I really like the idea of "Flavor" trees such as this one. I don't know if you think or refer to them that way but I am going to. I like the idea that you are joining this group by spending APs in it for abilities that that group offers, and any character can join them. (I will give my thoughts on the pay part of this in another post)

I would love to see other Flavor trees going forward. Perhaps -

Silver Flame Adept - abilities against undead and demons for those classes that struggle against them. Perhaps some longbow enhancements since it is the favored weapon.

Deneith Mercenary - Tactical abilities for the up close and personal types

War Wizards - Casting tricks and abilities. Perhaps Familiars?

Yugoloth - ?? Crazy enhancements for out of this world characters? ( I am not sure what the Yugoloths do..Alchemy? Potions? Archon type stuff?)


CAVEATS -

1) If you put points in one group, it locks out the others. No Harper Mercenary War Wizards.

2) Don't make the trees +1 to Tactical abilities or +1 to DC's. That's what the ED's do. They have to be new unique abilities useful in heroic and epic.

3) Please for the love of all that's holy - just one panel in the enhancements with a drop down for the different group panels. Don't make me scroll six miles side to side.


As I said - I have some thoughts on the pay debate and will post them separately. But I like this idea - More abilities and especially more character flavor is good.

[Aelonwy]

What about CLERICS!?

My main is a cleric, caster cleric, I've barely given the Warpriest tree a glance, I too wish for a Wis based race, I hope someday they add Asimaar. If they were to add wis to hit/dmg to a cleric tree it ought to go in Warpriest tier 4 or 5, but it still has no business being in this tree or any general any class tree such as this.

*snip snip snippety snip*
The only stats needed now would be INT and CON... for ANY class or combo. This should be setting off warning flags.

Next, how can an enhancement tree have both MORE melee power and MORE ranged power than the best epic destinies?

If it goes live, I'll make a build to abuse the heck out of it, but I think some more reasonable options are available to us:
1. Move INT to ranged into the artie tree and only allow it on crossbows (repeaters count).
1. Move INT to melee into the assassin tree. Only allow it on knives (i.e. daggers/kukri's).
2. Arcane archer could get a version of INT to damage for bows, but cap it. Use the ratio of wizard to total levels as the limiter. This would make it only available to elf builds using the elven AA tree and they would have to choose between DEX from "grace" or INT in the elven AA tree.

This follows the existing logic: CHA to damage in bard, CON to damage in dwarf, DEX to damage in ranger etc... AND in all these cases, using something other than STR for damage is only allowed on a small subset of weapons that make sense for the race/class.

In conclusion, its not that INT to damage is bad. The trouble is making it apply to everything.

These are all good points. I would like to point out though that the way Different Tack is setup in bard, requires the single weapon fighting feat, and only works while single weapon fighting. Which means if you are mainly a caster bard its a feat tax to use your casting stat to fight adequately, if you are a warchanter bard it forces you to be SWF if you want to use your casting stat to fight with. My warchanter has always been a 2HF halforc and she is very sad that warchanter was not given a cha to hit/dmg option or that Different Tack was so narrowly implemented.

I agree. Even if my Sorcerer would love more Charisma, they really shouldn't get it. Besides, Charisma is everywhere. Int is not.

I'm going to ask this again because I either didn't get an answer or I missed it somehow, What charisma can you acquire that has no equivalent in intelligence?
Seriously asking here... is there a source of charisma that I have somehow overlooked?

AFAIK Drow can be used for both builds to start with 20, and add racials, AFAIK the same amount to int/cha can be added through class enhancement trees, AFAIK the same amount int/cha can be added by EDs, Yugo potions same, Tomes same, store potions same, profane bonus same, exceptional bonus same, what am I missing? Is there some named item that offers more cha than can be acquired as intelligence? Does anyone know?

[Wizza]

I'm going to ask this again because I either didn't get an answer or I missed it somehow, What charisma can you acquire that has no equivalent in intelligence?
Seriously asking here... is there a source of charisma that I have somehow overlooked?

AFAIK Drow can be used for both builds to start with 20, and add racials, AFAIK the same amount to int/cha can be added through class enhancement trees, AFAIK the same amount int/cha can be added by EDs, Yugo potions same, Tomes same, store potions same, profane bonus same, exceptional bonus same, what am I missing? Is there some named item that offers more cha than can be acquired as intelligence? Does anyone know?

Exalted Angel is the first example that comes to mind. That's +8. And it's the popular thought that EA is the best DC ED at the moment. If you wanna play yourself in Magister, you will do so just for the Intelligence but that ED is utterly useless otherwise.

A Sorcerer could play in EA and have the same DCs (maybe more? Idk exactly at the moment) as a specialiazed Necro Wizard playing in Magister. You could play the Wizard in DI, but you are not going to get all the Int you are going to need from that ED as Burst, Breath are too good to pass up.

[Zoda]

I agree. Even if my Sorcerer would love more Charisma, they really shouldn't get it. Besides, Charisma is everywhere. Int is not.

I'd like to report an account hijack. That's not Wizza.

I'm almost proud of you Farwil

[Wizza]

I'd like to report an account hijack. That's not Wizza.

I'm almost proud of you Farwil

But hey, if you want to give us more Charisma, I'm all for it!

[Aelonwy]

Exalted Angel is the first example that comes to mind. That's +8. And it's the popular thought that EA is the best DC ED at the moment. If you wanna play yourself in Magister, you will do so just for the Intelligence but that ED is utterly useless otherwise.

A Sorcerer could play in EA and have the same DCs (maybe more? Idk exactly at the moment) as a specialiazed Necro Wizard playing in Magister. You could play the Wizard in DI, but you are not going to get all the Int you are going to need from that ED as Burst, Breath are too good to pass up.

TY for answering. Hmmm. So Angelic Presence which cannot be twisted sets highest possible achievable charisma two higher than Int, anything else? Magister as an ED needs a review, that has been an issue since the very beginning, I'm sure the devs will get around to it but I hope they add the missing ED for artificiers first.

[Wizza]

TY for answering. Hmmm. So Angelic Presence which cannot be twisted sets highest possible achievable charisma two higher than Int, anything else? Magister as an ED needs a review, that has been an issue since the very beginning, I'm sure the devs will get around to it but I hope they add the missing ED for artificiers first.

Hm nothing comes to mind at the moment, but it's enough IMHO.

I agree with both of your point. I'd love to see an Artificier ED and then some work done to Primal Avatar, Magister, Shadowdancer.

[Captain_Wizbang]

With the changes being made to melee's, armor, mrr etc, adding int as a modifier for dmg appears to help certain builds. Great.

Using an enhancement tree as a purchased item is not so great.
But ***, if it keeps people playing I'm ok with it.

Once purchased, is it for all toons & servers?

IMO we didn't need this right now.

Balancing the content to all of the OP toons should be a higher priority.

[Alavatar]

Talk about a bunch of arm-chair developers! How many of you actually logged on to play around with the enhancement tree?

I played around with it. Truth be told, I think the enhancement tree is fine the way it is and does not need additional balancing. There are some nifty niche things that the tree allows players to do that have good synergy with several types of builds. And, in order to get some of the more powerful abilities you have to sacrifice AP that you would otherwise use elsewhere ... I mean, AP are tight on many builds already.

A couple bugs I found are:

* Throat Dagger is currently named Chorce Foke.
* Tier 4 is unlocked with 15 AP instead of 20

[sgz]

I didn't call it P2W, I find that kinda silly. P2P. Meaning you buy it you use it (VIP perk is nice, but you still have to pay something to use it).
To me when I first read all the Harper tree features it immediately screamed ARTI. Yet Harper as such brings me an image of caster/bard. This tree is full of things that'd enhance both ranged Arti or Juggernaught type builds. Heck, it even seem to have better Arti pet enhancement then Arcano.

Whoops, didn't mean to imply that you stated it. It was more of a general observation, based on some of the commentary so far

I was highlighting more how you, Dagolar, and others were accurate in pointing out the missing enhancement trees for some classes ; this can color some of the perception for this new enhancement tree, because it clearly highlights "fixes" for some of the issues plaguing those classes. Just like you and others, my initial reaction to the proposed enhancements immediately screamed "Cool, awesome improvement to my Arty..." which is immediately followed by "Hmmm, why isn't this in the existing Arty enhancements now?"

[Indianwiz]

We should seriously get some extra APs to use this tree, at least 10 or something.

/signed

I have also created a separate thread asking for the same in case this gets muddled in this thread :P

[Qhualor]

I was going to say the same thing about spending AP. Another tree makes spending AP tight, especially for multi class builds. I could suggest reduced cost of enhancements or allowing additional AP to spend, but that than becomes a balance issue. I guess it would mean cherry picking.

[Aelonwy]

Hm nothing comes to mind at the moment, but it's enough IMHO.

I agree with both of your point. I'd love to see an Artificier ED and then some work done to Primal Avatar, Magister, Shadowdancer.

Okay I can agree then that giving 2 extra charisma in the tier3/4 stat options would be improper at this time, for the above reason. However, I would still prefer for the Int to hit/dmg to be a mutliselector between Int/cha because I feel that would open up more build choices with this GENERIC tree specifically cleric/fvs, sorcerer eldritch knight, warchanter 2hf, and Paladin. And I still think the to hit/dmg option should be pushed further up the tree, tiers 3 and 4 at least. If you are going to continue to call this the Harper tree, then this would make sense because most harper agents had at least some bard levels, and bards tend to use cha. Note: I am not saying this should be a bard tree, only that it could have more versatility for other classes, including nonswashbuckler bards if the to hit/dmg enhancement were a multiselector between int and cha.

[Eth]

Every tree needs sprintboost, please make it happen.

Fixed.

[Saekee]

I was going to say the same thing about spending AP. Another tree makes spending AP tight, especially for multi class builds. I could suggest reduced cost of enhancements or allowing additional AP to spend, but that than becomes a balance issue. I guess it would mean cherry picking.

I think that what is nicest about this tree is that it gives pures more with which to play. Especially pure rogues. Pures are more able to afford the APs for it.

[Wizza]

Okay I can agree then that giving 2 extra charisma in the tier3/4 stat options would be improper at this time, for the above reason. However, I would still prefer for the Int to hit/dmg to be a mutliselector between Int/cha because I feel that would open up more build choices with this GENERIC tree specifically cleric/fvs, sorcerer eldritch knight, warchanter 2hf, and Paladin. And I still think the to hit/dmg option should be pushed further up the tree, tiers 3 and 4 at least. If you are going to continue to call this the Harper tree, then this would make sense because most harper agents had at least some bard levels, and bards tend to use cha. Note: I am not saying this should be a bard tree, only that it could have more versatility for other classes, including nonswashbuckler bards if the to hit/dmg enhancement were a multiselector between int and cha.

The thing is, Cha to dmg can be gotten in two ways already. Splashing 3/Bard if you are SWF or going PDK is really easy for anyone, while Intelligence is nowhere but an Arti spell and does really not benefit many classes. Anyway, if they feel like adding Cha-to-dmg, I'm not really against it. I just kinda understand their reasonings for not doing so.

I disagree on this being moved up in the tree. I feel T2 is the right place for it to be. We are already tight with APs, moving it up will just lock everyone out.

[TankerWade]

Thoughts on the VIP/Pay debate -

I don't have a problem with these flavor trees being VIP or pay in the store (meaning they cost money in some method) because, well..capitalism. I get it. But I also don't think this is pay to win. I think this is pay for flavor, or options, if you will.

Pay to win in a shooter is when you buy a super gun and super bullets that the player next to you doesn't have and go to town on them. This tree isn't more powerful than say, the Shintao tree. Or the Pale Master tree. Or the AA tree. Perhaps it is better than some or many other trees, but that's true for Shintao as well. It's just a different tree.

Look, I am not that guy who is like - "you can just get a job and buy it if you really want it" - I hate that argument. But you don't need to get this. I can group with someone running a harper/druid and they have a Monk/Pally and I am not more powerful than them. It won't matter that I have Harper and they don't, heck I might not have Monk and they do! The reason it's ok is that we both have 80 action points to spend. You can get new trees to spend your action points in, or you can choose not to. Still 80 points to spend somewhere, and if things are balanced (I know - whole other topic though) it won't matter.

If you want to talk about Pay to win we should revisit tomes in the store. That is true character power. The people who are threatening to leave the game if they make Harper cost money just crack me up. So you stayed when they put tomes that boost your core stats in the store but you are leaving if they add enhancement trees that you don't need to have?

Assuming some semblance of balance (I know, I know), the power resides in the AP's, not the trees.

And here is the line that cannot be crossed -

Turbine you can make all the flavor trees you want and sell them. But you cannot sell AP's in the store. That's where the line is. In my scenario above, If I group with someone and I have 100 AP's to spend in Harper and whatnot, and they have 80, then that is unmitigated PtW and a real problem. Someone right now is going - Why would you suggest this to them? I am getting it out in the open. This is the slippery slope that has been alluded to by others. It is a very short walk from "I don't have enough AP's for all the things I want" to "Well just step right over here, it is a double bonus point weekend after all.." That would be a reason to leave.

Otherwise, as I mentioned in my earlier post please make more trees. That was the main reason you gave us for the enhancement pass - that making trees and modifying them would be easier. DDO's two best features are deep character customization and interesting content. Leverage them.