Harper tree feedback

[Vargouille]

I would make know the angles be antireq with strategic combat ii and different tack two steps ahead as it lets you get 2*int mod for thf and swf and 2.5*int mod per swing with twf (counting both hands). Otherwise int based will be better than everything else. You could also make the player immune to insightful damage while it is active.

These wouldn't actually stack, but it's still a good idea to make these explicit anti-requisites to make that clear.

[Scrabbler]

Wish the energy resistances were all 2/4/6 instead of 1/2/3. Never take those because they never are worth it.

Nah, for Energy Resist enhancements to be worth it they need to scale up with character level. Since this Harper thing is tier1 it could be resist3 + 1 per 3 levels. The tier2 energy resist in some class trees could be 6 + 1 per 2 levels.

[Scrabbler]

These wouldn't actually stack, but it's still a good idea to make these explicit anti-requisites to make that clear.

Why wouldn't it stack to use Intelligence as your weapon damage stat and then also have a +X Insight bonus to damage? If I get Intelligence damage from another feature, like an Artificer spell, will that work with Know Angels?

[Wizza]

These wouldn't actually stack, but it's still a good idea to make these explicit anti-requisites to make that clear.

Why not? That's like saying STR-to-dmg shouldn't stack with Divine Might from Paladin because it gives STR too. It makes ZERO logical sense.

[Vargouille]

If I get Intelligence damage from another feature, like an Artificer spell, will that work with Know Angels?

Sorry, I was confused/unclear. Multiple sources of "Use Intelligence for Attack/Damage" wouldn't stack, such as Strategic Combat enhancements and Artificer spells.

[Grailhawk]

Why not? That's like saying STR-to-dmg shouldn't stack with Divine Might from Paladin because it gives STR too. It makes ZERO logical sense.

The wording may not have been clear but the intention was. They don't want you double dipping the same stat for +Damage. In other words your example is flawed because Divine Might does not use STR to give a bonus to STR.

Or Not.

[Scrabbler]

Sorry, I was confused/unclear. Multiple sources of "Use Intelligence for Attack/Damage" wouldn't stack, such as Strategic Combat enhancements and Artificer spells.

Right, but anyone who uses the Harper tree for Intelligence melee will typically add 150% Int mod to mainhand and 100% to offhand, or 200% THF/SWF. That's a better multiplier than from Strength, Dexterity, or other stats.


The general problem is that it looks weird for a tree to include two separate abilities for "Intelligence stat contributes to melee damage", and to let them stack together.

[droid327]

Enchantment of Righetousness is not granting Good damage to the weapon like the Righteousness suffix should. On a RXB, Rakshasas (DR Pierce+Good) are still showing yellow damage, and the weapon itself is not showing Good as a damage type either.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It's ok, but it seems that the already existing ones are better for their intended classes.

I'm VIP, but I wonder if non-VIPs would consider this desirable enough to purchase.

[ponzo]

I quite like the new tree, and I have no observations on its function.

My main concern is that most characters are already far too stretched on enhancement points and this new tree (and many other similar path/professions trees which may be added in the future) will just wreak havoc. Also, I really liked the Gatekeepers suggestion above (Scrabbler's, I think).

My personal suggestion, although I am sure this is now out of the question, would have been to create a separate enhancement pool for professions/paths completely independent of the current enhancement trees.

Give characters, say, 1 profession enhancement point per level (up to 30) and let them then allocate those (up to 30) points across this new set of professions trees rather than trying to cram them into the current enhancement system. (Maybe even 1 point every other level for 15 max).

Can you imagine how much horizontal scrolling is going to be involved trying to work the current enhancement system when you add a few of more these Harper-like trees?

I think doing it that way would have allowed for a better UI and a way of adding flavour on top of a build without everyone having to force things to fit awkwardly in this current system.

[Qhualor]

It's ok, but it seems that the already existing ones are better for their intended classes.

I'm VIP, but I wonder if non-VIPs would consider this desirable enough to purchase.

they will if a new FOTM build includes the Harper tree. kinda like what happened when Iconics were released and now look at all the BF running around.

[LuKaSu]

Vague future suggestion:

Create a Gatekeepers enhancement tree, available to any character (VIP or "earned" it) but locking out the Harper tree. It includes Wisdom and some wisdom-based abilities, Druid-like stuff, anti-Outsider anti-Aberration anti-Elemental features, dismissal SLA, much Abjuration DC, and immunities including a Deathward spell and "Anchoring" (banishment-ward).

I like this. Well, I don't know if I like this exactly, but I like the way it sends me off on rabbit trails in my brain. It would be cool if there were several "group" trees, each of which would be mutually exclusive, and unlckable with high-tier favor rewards, VIP, or TP purchase. The only issue is that the Harper tree is so good in so many areas that it would take something super OP to draw people away. That being said, it's a good start to an idea!

[bbqzor]

Ive chopped up your quote a bit, but it was not done out of any kind of negative motive. I simply wanted to put comments together and reply at once. Please, take no offense.

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. ... since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

The classes mentioned later on (Art, Rog, Wiz), two (Rog, Wiz) already have 3 trees. So Im going to assume you mean those sorts of builds.

Of those, Wizard has basically has a situation where its going to have 42ish in one tree, 22ish in another, and then 14 pts left for racial abilities. Harper basically replaces Race here, absorbing those 14 pts. That means the Harper tree is likely going to result simply in +Int. Its not directly benefiting wizards with more wizarding through wizardness. Its just more Int. To get the unique stuff (T4/5) means losing out either on your main wiz tree (bad idea) or dropping int for effects (for most traditional wizards, bad idea). I dont think it really bolstered much more than 1-2 DC.

For Rogue, it has basically 2 exclusive trees (Assassin and Acrobat) and one pointless tree (Mechanic). The solution here isnt to add Harper, its to fix Mechanic. Now thats not to say Harper wont help rogues, just that its not the right fix to actually fix things, more of a band aid on a boat leak. And, like wiz, it helps assassin by basically adding a couple Int. Its extremely unlikely a rog will have the feats to greatly benefit from tactics, or that with the other assassin abilities will have such a higher Int than Dex to make it worth switching stats for atk/dmg. And it cant take the T5s without giving up Assassinate and Knife Spec so, that wont happen. Acrobats are kinda in the same boat, they cant give up their T5 and are already so dex based theres basically no return to switching to int. But instead of int, they could get some tactics boosts to Trip, which is a help, but a pretty minor one.

As for Mechanic, it might gain the most, but then.... youd have to play a Mechanic. If youre doing that, you probably incorporated Artificer Levels, in which case Id say its a lot more fair to count it as an art build than a rog build.

So Wiz and Rog, maybe they gain a few int for DC, or some vertigo help off int, but really not a lots changing. Except Melee Power gains, which is rather game wide and already been discussed so I wont go down that road. Suffice it to say, permanent damage boost action boost in heroic is like, a big change. Captain Obvious, yes, but if the numbers get much smaller no one will spend the AP on it... kind of a catch 22. So, Melee power balancing act aside, the benefits are kinda minor.

The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers

Yes. This is a good arty tree (insofar as what to splash it with, still wouldnt take the T5/cap over BE, but thats another story). It does meaningfully bolster Artificer. Of course, getting a third arty tree instead would have (presumably) done a similar job. Yes, it wouldnt have given wiz/rog a slight nudge, but then it might have fully addressed the artificer concerns. I know that wasnt your intent with this thing (and, take note, I hope when artificer time comes it gets a swashbuckler look not a kotc look, bleh). Only that if you had to single out where this is going to make the most impact, at least with the amount of looking done to this point, that would be the spot.

and maybe even Int based Rangers

Wha? I cant really see how a build like this would ever function well enough that you would choose it over one of the other alternatives. Maybe later in the game... if arty got a melee tree, and you could splash some wiz EK, arty melee, Tempest or something... but game as it stands not really.

And more to the point... why would that be a focus of something to "bolster". Making int based rangers more effective vs fixing numerous bugs, sorry int based rangers the times gotta go elsewhere for the greater good.

one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different ... builds [and] speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees

Okay yes. But this relates to me original feedback on the tree (think its on pg2 of this thread). By doing many things, it becomes master of none. Which is why its so impossible to see a situation where T5/cap Harper is the "right" choice for a build. You compromise the tree top to have wide roots. Wide roots is nice, and bolstering several things at once is probably nice in terms of paring down your workload. Also it means a lot of players can use it, instead of just the subset that are into whatever specific class. So I mean, I get this.

Just realize that what class trees do is probably far greater in terms of game longevity and player game play appreciation. More people play bards and are happy with bards now than ever before. Really. You guys definitely had some time crunch compromises (oh man I will never get over the enthrall missed opportunities, and Reverberate sorely needs a spell effect graphic), but what went out works, works well, and struck a chord (ha ha!) with players. In short, it won.

Harper isnt going to win anything for anybody. Its going to shore up a few things... only until theres good competing choices for the AP. Is wizard still going to have those 14 pts free to buy Harper Int if they get another tree, or if their current trees get slightly updated (and thats a case where, unlike KotC, a small revision to cleanup and modernize is all thats needed)? Will people still choose that, and just change their race around, effectively meaning that with Harper you can go Human Wiz instead of Drow Wiz and wind up somewhat similar? None of those things are going to be as major, for players and playing experience, as the bard pass was for bards (or the barb pass is for barbs... we hope... /eyes U24 menacingly).

Just saying, this tree is what it is. Jack of all appeals, Master of none, helpful to most, with the least of the tree. Its good, in so far as it grows the game and character options. But its not, and wont ever be, as revitalizing as some of the more core character concepts being developed would be.

PS. You can tell us, does this relate to 5th pnp, we gonna get more "organization" trees in the future? Where we can only select one at a time to use? Because, taken in total, something of THAT scale might provide a more meaningful experience than this single tree will.

PPS. The favor unlock option, Im down with that. Free to ViP, unlock-able or store for anyone else, thats a much better fit with the game model than "money or nope".

[Wizza]

Sorry, I was confused/unclear. Multiple sources of "Use Intelligence for Attack/Damage" wouldn't stack, such as Strategic Combat enhancements and Artificer spells.

That explains it. Thanks.

[Livmo]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

A pure Artificer only became less effective after the Enhancement pass, and by other subsequent changes to the game. As another posted already noted the new arty trees are mostly junk and you get maybe 1.5 trees at best. This is still only stop gap for C- work on the new arty trees (not blaming you or anyone, it is what it is). I remain hopeful that in the future the arty trees will be scrubbed and made useful. I can relate to why arties would feel burned by this new tree. I would rather have frosted cookies and not burned ones if given a choice.

[Desonde]

When we looked at those builds we didn't see this tree boosting them that much. They are AP heavy builds that already dip into multiple trees, and they function very well on other attributes. The only thing about Harper that might be too much with those builds is it might provide too much Melee Power/Ranged Power from Versatile Adept.

Now, if you've tested a build that overperforms then we'd love to see it so we can nip that in the bud.

Sev~

24 Melee and Ranged Power is far too much (it's almost as much as you currently get from epic levels, you are saying that using this tree is about as strong as being epic).

With a few tweaks to my shuriken build I go from doing an average of ~160dmg per shuriken to ~226 per shuriken (3 Shuriken Average at .7s cycle) from (24 Harper Ranged to the base Shuriken dmg of ~60 brings it up to ~74, 52 from Harper/Epic Level Melee Power brings ~100 sneak attack dmg up to ~152). And that's without ED's or their procs and without being fully geared out.

I'm curious to see what an Adrenaline/Blitzed Exalted Smite with a Thunderforged Heavy Pick(or eSoS) using SWF(THF) and Divine Might Bladeforged Paladin will be doing.

[Purkilius]

The lower tiers of this tree give thought to some interesting builds but the higher tiers esp. tier 5 and higher core are a bit meh.

Nothing that really calls out, I wanna be a Harper

edit: melee and ranged power do compensate but lacks more Harper...

[SilkofDrasnia]

lol! love some of the responses on an enhancement tree. i don't want to derail or ruin the thread, but there are far greater concerns in the store than a tree.

Actually no, I don't give a rats arse about p2w items in the store but enhancement are integral to character building and the worst kind of gating right up there with the bloody sigils of leveling.

The ONLY way I would be okay with this is if it was favor unlockable in the same manner as 32 point builds are. Meaning get so many favor and it becomes unlocked on that server permanently.

[redoubt]

For Rogue, it has basically 2 exclusive trees (Assassin and Acrobat) and one pointless tree (Mechanic). The solution here isnt to add Harper, its to fix Mechanic. Now thats not to say Harper wont help rogues, just that its not the right fix to actually fix things, more of a band aid on a boat leak. And, like wiz, it helps assassin by basically adding a couple Int. Its extremely unlikely a rog will have the feats to greatly benefit from tactics, or that with the other assassin abilities will have such a higher Int than Dex to make it worth switching stats for atk/dmg. And it cant take the T5s without giving up Assassinate and Knife Spec so, that wont happen. Acrobats are kinda in the same boat, they cant give up their T5 and are already so dex based theres basically no return to switching to int. But instead of int, they could get some tactics boosts to Trip, which is a help, but a pretty minor one.

I disagree. I think rogues will heavily invest in this tree. Assassins for sure.

Only 2 stats are needed.

INT for assassinate DC, reflex saves, attack, damage, search, disable.
CON for HP and fort save.
Put whatever is left into WIS for will save and spot.
Open lock doesn't matter, you can't crit fail. Whatever dex you get from items + OL items is enough.

The next issue is that this can be applied to ANY build. People are already working up INT based Paladin builds to take advantage of INT to att/damage and the INT based divine might (which appears to have a better up-time than the paladin one.)

[burningwind]

i have been playing with this enhancement tree for one day, and here are my thought

1) only melee damage?? this tree is like a common tree for all melee toon.. which is nice. but what about range damage?
2)int to damage is nice.. how about also offer char and dex to damage? since they are in their core. make it a selector so people can choose which one use to damage? (since there are already many source of cha and dex to damage, i don't see how this will break balance. also this will make this tree more attractive for more build verity~~
3)tier 5 and capstone are not the greatest.. it is almost like someone shouting in the background saying"do not take it unless you are stupid"...please make end tier more powerful... also some of the enhancement may not seem as good as other ones on other tree..
4)i really don't think it is a good idea to sale enhancement tree.. what you can do is put in shop something we need and we will glad to spend money on these... like awesome outfit(you can check from tera or blade and soul~~ you get the idea) or perm hireling that level up with you.. i for one will get these for sure.. even you sale them for 50 each...anywayz..please do improve the owlbear and panther


p.s. even if you do not think so about dex to damage, you should definally put in cha to damage/hit....sorc ek tree really need this....