Harper tree feedback

[patang01]

So I took my pure human arti, did some re-arranging and added some 1, 2 and 3 core abilities (Harper). I get 1 int, the int to damage can be had through spell, so I figured I do int to hit, some additional enhancement and spell power. Anymore on that tree and it's taking key abilities from the other Arti trees. So basically a few more points of damage, 1 more int and better 2 hit. I lose some universal spell points from the human class 3 and some stuff from arcano tech.

To me this seems to be a multi class buffer - the ability for people who can't invest in int to damage via spell to get it instead via enhancements. For me it's a wash. I'm not cancelling my sub but I honestly wish we had all the full trees for our classes fleshed out before you guys started dropping P2P trees. Anyways.

[tiamat1985]

There are a lot more ways to stack Strength, and Rage doesn't stack with Intelligence. We believe Strength builds will still be great, and we are eager to get feedback on specific builds that use Harper Agent.

Sev~

Ehmm... you are still missing the point.
Strength is to hit and damage! Int means skill points, spell DC, Spell points, trapper skills etc... Dex means AC and reflex saves... Cha means spell points, spell DC, many skills, saves (with 2 or more pally levels)...
Of course Strength has to be a better damage ability! And you are doing the worst thing removing STR require to Overwhelming critical, the only real reason to build up str a little atm. Shame on you for doing such thing.

[Minrothad]

We should seriously get some extra APs to use this tree, at least 10 or something.

[RavenStormclaw]

I just got to say I like this tree. I do tend to agree that adding intel to hit as a tier 1 may be a bit OP. I would move it to tier two. I mean classes that can get this for example rogue or arti can't until level 3 at least. Yet this can be gotten halfway thru level 1. (Need only 2ap to get it).


However to those few who are threatening to quit if this isn't changed to a favor reward.. Come on now such threats never work. If you want to leave that is your choice but the rest of us don't care for your threats... It clutters up a real discussion.

[TankerWade]

All I can say is -

HOLY SWORD - INT to DMG - HARPER PALADIN ASSASSINS FOR THE WIN ! ! !

[sgz]

To me this seems to be a multi class buffer - the ability for people who can't invest in int to damage via spell to get it instead via enhancements. For me it's a wash. I'm not cancelling my sub but I honestly wish we had all the full trees for our classes fleshed out before you guys started dropping P2P trees. Anyways.

Dagolar's comparison hit it on the head...

Arti is similar- BE can support AT, but AT can't support BE, essentially giving Arti only 1.5 paths.

On a L20 Artificer [ Build ] Heavy repeater/Rune Arm, after getting all the "good" things in the BE tree (43) and points in racial (11), i had ~26 pts left over. There's not much in the AT tree really worth getting to improve upon the build ...those same 20+ pts in the Harper Enh on the other hand, is leaps and bounds a superior choice. This is most likely going to be the case for quite a number of other classes/builds as wells, it's just more noticeable on the struggling classes at the moment.

As a whole, the Harper enhancement tree has a lot of decent things going for it. A few tweaks on things others have pointed out, can certainly improve the tree (or balance it ). I don't believe the P2W tag is appropriate ...until we can see the final version at least.

[Throwdown]

There's nothing OP about this except for one thing:

24 Melee Power and 24 Ranged Power is unavailable anywhere else, and it seems quite good. However, calculations would need to be done in order to fairly value this over other tree's addition to damage to particular characters. Since xPower however scales with other things, instead of being static bonuses, it could be really good.

Also as someone who has been a VIP for 7 years, and supported this game immensely financially, I don't want this favor unlockable.

Turbine has bills to pay and freeloaders who never spend a dime are the reason we can't have nice things. Just earn favor for TP to buy if you dont want to pay for it directly. Why is that such a hard idea to understand?

[Dagolar]

Ehmm... you are still missing the point.
Strength is to hit and damage! Int means skill points, spell DC, Spell points, trapper skills etc... Dex means AC and reflex saves... Cha means spell points, spell DC, many skills, saves (with 2 or more pally levels)...
Of course Strength has to be a better damage ability! And you are doing the worst thing removing STR require to Overwhelming critical, the only real reason to build up str a little atm. Shame on you for doing such thing.

I fully agree.
An extra +5 to hit and damage (that is, +10 strength, which is about what a non min-maxed, typical strength toon can get over non-strength toons) is NOTHING in the current game.
I mean, we throw out 1d6 light damage like it's candy now (average 3.5 damage; can't crit- aprox 2.9 average damage (compared to crit range of 4, x2)).

Strength needs a LOT more love to feasible.

And.

Overwhelming critical was it.

I got +5 strength tomes to make my builds work [so, y'know. The assumption is that there's money in the back for Turbine to not change it :P].

It was a fun way to appreciate strength builds and to make people really develop their stat allotment out well.

The only problem OC ever had was the hefty feat requirement, and that really only hurt feat-starved races/classes (warforged, paladins, etc/versus monks, fighters, rangers, etc).

Removing the strength requirement- ESPECIALLY when you're not removing it for the other stat-based feats (Dex req for Combat Archery? Always made less sense than Str->OC...).

An argument could be made for reducing all stat-based reqs by 1 or 2, but..

No, I'm fine with the current, pre-beta stat requirements for feats. Having to work at things isn't bad..

..especially if we end up getting comparative feats for all the other stats, as well.

Thus giving each stat a boost [hopefully in time, for each of the three build archetypes (caster, melee, ranged)], and allowing people to spec out another stat to boost their build.


In other words, removing Strength isn't the answer;
Adding more feats is.

For me it's a wash. I'm not cancelling my sub but I honestly wish we had all the full trees for our classes fleshed out before you guys started dropping P2P trees. Anyways.

I can't argue this.

Especially when Spellsword (which is a standard non-class-associated path] got clumped into Eldritch Knight, and there's no sign of Mystic Theurge..

In other words, the paths that actually DO enhance builds by enhancing multiclassing ability don't get this treatment, but a generalist prestige class does.

Well, I have no complaints, though- more is generally better.

But I do have to agree that it's not really what's best for the game atm-
At least, not unless Turbine really needs that extra bit of cash.


(That said, now that it's in play, I'm not going to push to have it removed, I want my int-> back in the game too badly :P)

All I can say is -

HOLY SWORD - INT to DMG - HARPER PALADIN ASSASSINS FOR THE WIN ! ! !

Assassins- or at least the capable ones- ALREADY min-max Int. At most, you'd be looking at +4 to +6 int (or +2 to +3 to assassinate DCs) from what you suggest, and that'd be with enhancement speccing for it.

On the other hand, the 14 required levels of Paladin would be a -14 Assassinate DC.

That is to say, a netgain of -11 or worse to your DC.

Nope, go for it, sounds legit :P

Also as someone who has been a VIP for 7 years, and supported this game immensely financially, I don't want this favor unlockable.

Turbine has bills to pay and freeloaders who never spend a dime are the reason we can't have nice things. Just earn favor for TP to buy if you dont want to pay for it directly. Why is that such a hard idea to understand?

I can't argue this point; At least, from the perspective you offer it.

You have to also realize, people want to be able to have fun, thematic in-game unlocks, as well.

While you'd still have some whining [about favor unlocking], you wouldn't have NEAR the intensity if this tree were, say, Horizon Walker.

But Harper Agent is associated with, well, Harper favor.

To many of us, it seems a DUH, OF COURSE association.

Inherently, I also instinctively go 'okay, I'll buy this in the store'.
That's normal.

But then I see it's Harper, and I go 'Oh, it'll be favor unlockable.'

Notice that there wasn't a 'maybe' in there.
It's just the first assumption that comes to mind.

It takes a bit of time to wrap your head around it, and still feels a bit off, that it's not associated <yet?>

So no. For other, future such paths, you're in the clear.

But for this one? I'm going to have to support the pro-favor-unlock crowd.

[John_Rove]

Also as someone who has been a VIP for 7 years, and supported this game immensely financially, I don't want this favor unlockable.

Turbine has bills to pay and freeloaders who never spend a dime are the reason we can't have nice things. Just earn favor for TP to buy if you dont want to pay for it directly. Why is that such a hard idea to understand?

Guess what, I am one of the people who want this favor unlockable. I have been VIP since 6 months or less after I started playing this game. I have defended Turbine's right to make money with other blatant P2W initiatives (Otto's Boxes, +6 Tomes(Raid Loot). etc). But now they are asking you to pay for enhancements, which are a basic part of your character.

Would you be okay if they added combat feats that added 8/16/24 melee/ranged power that were free to VIPs but had to be paid for by Non-VIPs?

[droid327]

Also as someone who has been a VIP for 7 years, and supported this game immensely financially, I don't want this favor unlockable.

Turbine has bills to pay and freeloaders who never spend a dime are the reason we can't have nice things. Just earn favor for TP to buy if you dont want to pay for it directly. Why is that such a hard idea to understand?

Because we were told that the F2P model would guarantee a full F2P game, not F2P to a point or F2P but P2W or F2P if youre willing to grind till your eyes bleed. Store was only for convenience and cosmetics, not to create a higher caste of players. A unique and powerful new tree isn't convenience...even the much maligned Otto boxes don't give you anything you can't earn in game.

If you don't feel VIP is worth the price for what you get, cancel your sub, no ones making you pay. "Freeloaders" shouldn't matter because you're just paying for your own personal access. If you're that upset by the F2P model, there are still plenty of sub only games...

[Dagolar]

Guess what, I am one of the people who want this favor unlockable. I have been VIP since 6 months or less after I started playing this game. I have defended Turbine's right to make money with other blatant P2W initiatives (Otto's Boxes, +6 Tomes(Raid Loot). etc). But now they are asking you to pay for enhancements, which are a basic part of your character.

Would you be okay if they added combat feats that added 8/16/24 melee/ranged power that were free to VIPs but had to be paid for by Non-VIPs?

Because we were told that the F2P model would guarantee a full F2P game, not F2P to a point or F2P but P2W or F2P if youre willing to grind till your eyes bleed. Store was only for convenience and cosmetics, not to create a higher caste of players. A unique and powerful new tree isn't convenience...even the much maligned Otto boxes don't give you anything you can't earn in game.

If you don't feel VIP is worth the price for what you get, cancel your sub, no ones making you pay. "Freeloaders" shouldn't matter because you're just paying for your own personal access. If you're that upset by the F2P model, there are still plenty of sub only games...

:eyes the Epic Destiny store unlock:
:eyes your posts:
:recalls the comments devs originally made about potentially in the future making more store-unlockable enhancement and destiny trees:
:eyes the new tree:
:eyes the packs in the store:
:eyes the free to earn TP:

[John_Rove]

:recalls the comments devs originally made about potentially in the future making more store-unlockable enhancement and destiny trees:

Where were these comments made? A link would be ideal, since I remember talking with Devs when ED's were being worked on and remember no such posts.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I was very pleasantly surprised when I read the Release Notes today. I wasn't expecting this new tree and the fact that it works differently than any other is a breath of fresh air.

The tree provides a buff for Assassins, melee Rangers, hybrid casters, and tacticians, which were all in need of a little something, in my opinion. Smart move.

Like many of the other commenters, I’m looking forward to racial trees for all races and three total trees for each class, but I have no complaints about getting yet another tree option in the meantime. The more build options we have, the more appealing the game is.

I must admit, I'm a bit disappointed by the level of negativity in some of the posts in this thread. I can be overly dramatic when making my points too, I'll admit, but constructive criticism is a lot more appropriate and beneficial than full blown tirades and threats to quit the game since this is, you know, a testing phase on Lamannia...

[Munkenmo]

This tree needs sprintboost, please make it happen.

[droid327]

:eyes the free to earn TP:

Which would be the "grind till your eyes bleed" part if you tried to spend it on anything but pack unlocks when they're on sale...

Unless Harper is like 95 TP, it'd represent hours and hours of low level grinding on throwaway characters to acquire that way. How is that preferable for VIPs than having people playing their actual characters to grind out Harper favor? You know, doing quests you can join them for, earning renown for the guild you're in, looting things you may want to buy and earning money to buy what you're selling, etc etc.

[Zaloric]

I don't know that a straight comparison really works, but I'd love to see some feedback on some specific builds.

I haven't had time to completely develop one yet, but my eyes were popping at the potential. Having just recently finished an epic life as Eldritch Knight on my pure wizard, I see a number of tools here that would have made my EK experience a lot less painful. The two trees (EK and Harper) complement each other very well, the only problem being that the Tier 5 offerings are somewhat weak all around (given that Tenser's is no longer useful for an Int-based build). That said, I would probably choose Harper's Tier 5's over EK's.

[RavenStormclaw]

Because we were told that the F2P model would guarantee a full F2P game, not F2P to a point or F2P but P2W or F2P if youre willing to grind till your eyes bleed. Store was only for convenience and cosmetics, not to create a higher caste of players. A unique and powerful new tree isn't convenience...even the much maligned Otto boxes don't give you anything you can't earn in game.

If you don't feel VIP is worth the price for what you get, cancel your sub, no ones making you pay. "Freeloaders" shouldn't matter because you're just paying for your own personal access. If you're that upset by the F2P model, there are still plenty of sub only games...

I'm with Throwdown.. And when has this ever been a full FTP game? Answer.. It hasn't ever. Why.. Because not all the packs are free to play including some of the best loot in the game.. Ie green steel. Want it buy.. With real life money.. The Vale pack or go VIP. This is no different at all.. Period. Sure it's an ehnhancement tree but you can live without it and still have a viable functional character because guess what we do now.
And you can get it in game for free as you ask via grinding TP. So your whole argument is really pointless. And to get it via Harper favor you would have to buy the FR packs because there is not enough free, if any, Harper favor further destroying your argument.

[Qhualor]

lol! love some of the responses on an enhancement tree. i don't want to derail or ruin the thread, but there are far greater concerns in the store than a tree.

[FranOhmsford]

The Artificer trees have some good stuff in it. I would say that it's hard to compare them directly. Battle Engineer has a lot of rune arm boosts which don't have any comparison and it has some good passive bonuses. The Arcanotechnican has boosts to the Iron Defender, adds AoE attacks, and has great casting buffs. Harper gets no spell critical, for example.

I don't know that a straight comparison really works, but I'd love to see some feedback on some specific builds.

Sev~

The Artificer Trees are both utterly terrible!

All those Rune Arm boosts in Battle Engineer are as nothing to a Ranged Arti {who's frankly only interested in the PASSIVE Extra Dmg to his/her bolts!} and would fit much better in the Arcanotech Tree for a Caster Arti - Ranged Artis simply don't get any real benefit from using the Rune-Arm because it requires Spell Power/Metas etc. to make the damage even halfway worthwhile!

Meanwhile you've got the Dog buffs in Arcanotech - Which are frankly useless to a Caster Arti and would make far more sense being in Battle Engineer as it's Ranged Artis who need the Dog to keep Aggro off them!


13 Rogue / 7 Arti with hardly anything spent in the Arti Trees at all is Outright a better Ranged Build than Pure Arti!

13 Arti / 7 Rogue beats Pure Arti!

18 Arti / 2 Rogue beats Pure Arti!

17 Rogue / 3 Arti beats Pure Arti!

19 Rogue / 1 Arti {just for Conjured Bolts!} beats Pure Arti!


Caster Artis should not compare to Wizards or Sorcs, Druids or Souls, Even Clerics or Bards! and therefore should NOT be given such focus in the Arti Trees!

[FlaviusMaximus]

Thoughts on the abilities:

I really like intelligence to hit and damage on tiers one and two. Opens up a lot of build options, and that's what this game is all about.

Highly Skilled is great. If it doesn't already, it should cost 1 AP per tier. Yes, it does more than other skill boosting abilities, but it’s up at tier three and existing skill boosting enhancements are already cost prohibitive at 1 per tier once the points start getting spread around.

Perhaps the melee and ranged power should be reduced to 1, 3, 5 at a cost of 2 AP per tier or 1, 2, 3 at a cost of 1 AP per tier. I'm generally in favor of being cautious with the amount of MP made available.

Heroic Companion needs to cost 1 AP per tier for both Harper and Halfling and/or should buff both self and other. People do not and will not invest a large amount of AP to only buff others.

Concerned that Know the Angles could make Quivering Palm an insta-kill every six seconds again, but I love the concept.

Throat Dagger could be a fun ability if it doesn't break stealth. Of course, the preferable alternative is to not make rogues sneak to raise their Assassinate DC in the first place.

I love Know Your Foe.

The abilities on tier five are not worth going to tier 5 for, nor should they be. Nobody should be encouraged to go to tier five in a tree that everyone gets because if the tier five abilities were actually strong, it would create too much sameness between builds. Why not just eliminate tier five altogether along with the 5th core ability?