We need a tiered loot system

[Seikojin]

I think the the FOT system was successful as well. Running on EE provided incentive in that you'd bypass a tremendous amount of grind for upgrade mats by just getting the upgraded version right away.

Either of these systems are more desirable than what we're currently getting.

I agree that a tiered loot system should be the way to go.

However, isn't that what Mythic is going to provide? Or not enough to be similar and relevant to match tiered? A ton of people cry against tiered, however I think tiered is the proper thing to do. Especially looking at it in the normal = first life, hard = second life, and elite = third+ lives.

[Wizza]

All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...eedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

[Takllin]

I agree that a tiered loot system should be the way to go.

However, isn't that what Mythic is going to provide? Or not enough to be similar and relevant to match tiered? A ton of people cry against tiered, however I think tiered is the proper thing to do. Especially looking at it in the normal = first life, hard = second life, and elite = third+ lives.

Well, if every item had a Mythic version, that ONLY dropped on EE, then yes, I think it would be a great system.

But, it can drop on EN, and it is only on the 4 helms.

If they make everything have a Mythic version, and restrict it to EE, then that is a system that I can get behind.

[Zoda]

All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...eedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

Those helms are not good. As the only mythic items I'd expect them to be at least best in slot for some builds but they are not. The set bonus on them is pointless, noone will drop shadowscale/black scale for that, dps gets outclassed by black dragon helm or dragon masque in non undead content and casters will use Defic Diadem (or Epic Helm of the Red Dragon on some specific builds). Maybe some shiradi will equip Minos but that's about it (I still wouldn't...).

I like the drop rate. Not as much as I'd like epic crafting/oldschool turn in system/tiered loot, but at least it's better than nothing. Certainly better than the 3BC nonsense. Now only if there was a mythic item worth getting... Maybe give us mythic versions of tome page/shield fragment turn ins?

I like that +6 tomes are only accessible on e/e, but if the drop rate is the same as in deathwyrm/fire peaks you might as well make them +10 tomes. There hasn't been a single recorded drop of a +6 tome in the u21 raids.

[Lifespawn]

This is fantastic. Thank you for sharing the #s because there is alot of mythology that the drop rates on elite, hard and normal are virtually the same.

If you make non-raid mythics unbound you may sell more AS. I prefer bound loot myself, but I think others like the unbound items so they have something to sell.

This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

[Takllin]

I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

Honestly, I agree with all these sentiments.

[Purkilius]

Those helms are not good. As the only mythic items I'd expect them to be at least best in slot for some builds but they are not. The set bonus on them is pointless, noone will drop shadowscale/black scale for that, dps gets outclassed by black dragon helm or dragon masque in non undead content and casters will use Defic Diadem (or Epic Helm of the Red Dragon on some specific builds). Maybe some shiradi will equip Minos but that's about it (I still wouldn't...).

I like the drop rate. Not as much as I'd like epic crafting/oldschool turn in system/tiered loot, but at least it's better than nothing. Certainly better than the 3BC nonsense. Now only if there was a mythic item worth getting... Maybe give us mythic versions of tome page/shield fragment turn ins?

I like that +6 tomes are only accessible on e/e, but if the drop rate is the same as in deathwyrm/fire peaks you might as well make them +10 tomes. There hasn't been a single recorded drop of a +6 tome in the u21 raids.

Well at least unbound +5 tomes drop on eh/en (do not remember) wyrm, but with a confirmed a +6 tome drop on ee would be great incentive but after a few months now not a single 1 has dropped at least so we know of and thats just bad design and makes us untrusting in that it will drop in the new raid!

[Seikojin]

This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

A while back tomes were bumped from 1 in 400 chance to 1 in 300 chance. So if this was true then, and is true now, that means the elite runs would be 1 in 30 or 40 chance.

However, exposing the drop rates has been taboo in games forever, so you will never get a real, long lasting number.

[bbqzor]

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Look, we have heard before where a dev thinks a 2% drop rate is "good". Im not going to take the time to go dig this stuff up, but its there (Dun'Robar rings was one discussion if anyone else cares to, where ranges from 2-6% were discussed; one of several). Here we have a case where "up to 10x" is being used. If you're using whole percentage numbers, that means it might be like 1% EN, 2% EH, 20% EE.

Obviously, 20% isnt likely given the statement "not easy to obtain". Which means its probably not using whole percentage numbers. Which means, by definition, its fractions of a percent.. Meaning "up to x10" is not only misleading (either they're not all x10 as likely, making some of them rarer which is seemingly foolish, or they're all x10 and you can just come out and say it), but it results in extrapolating the base value as <1%. Meaning that even across 100 runs you may not see one a majority of the time (note that statistically, even with a 1% drop rate, youll only see a helm from 100 runs about 2/3rds of the time due to variance... so <1% is really, really pointless).

So ultimately, we have to conclude these arent really practically farm-able. Its not something you can sit down and say "hey, Im going to go work on getting a Mythic helm". Players who have a single character they focus on, may be able to farm one on EE (if the EH value is 0.5% and the EE value is 5%, someone doing 40 EE runs on one guy is attainable), but no one is going to be able to sit down and work on these for their whole account of characters.

Im not saying they have to be "super easy to get" or anything. Im just pointing out what the numbers mean. If you want one of these, prepare to do 40+ EE runs looking for it. Trying to get one on EN or EH is basically just hoping on the lottery. And those are "hopeful" numbers. I could easily see it being worse.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

Theres rare, then theres non-existent. In about 80 raid runs Ive seen one tome. So 80 x 12 = 960 pulls = ~0.1% chance. Again, comparing to above, its probably something like 0.1% chance on normal, 0.5% chance on hard, 1-5% chance on EE. Hence the "up to x10" figures.

--------

You guys sometimes forget, or maybe never learned given that almost all the devs are newer than the game, that originally it had drop rates of like 12-16% from raids. Doing 20 runs, youd see a couple items drop on the way to 20, then get the item you wanted on 20 if not earlier. Then over time the rates dropped to like 5%, so "doing 20 runs for it" became more of a certainty, but you had maybe a 50/50 shot of finishing early.

Then with U21, it became "do 20 runs for an item, ever, because they almost never drop, then do another 20 runs for another item, then do another 20 runs for 10 phlogs". The grind has gotten so insanely bad people spam timers just to get the runs in before the content becomes outdated. Thats not an intelligent model. Making people choose between spending real money or waiting 3+ months of constant farming is a far cry from the scope of original intent.

Theres a way to have drop rates be rare, without being lottery rare. You wont give us the exact numbers, so we have to guess, but PLEASE make sure this stuff is PRACTICAL to obtain. Mythic items being harder, fine, but it shouldnt take 20+ runs of a quest to see the regular items. When we cannot buy/trade items, we are FORCED to farm. That means farming has to be reliable and worthwhile to do. 3BC definitely has some "too rare" things in it.... dont want to see the same mistake again. And when I see rates <1%, I get that spidey sense tingle....

[Lifespawn]

A while back tomes were bumped from 1 in 400 chance to 1 in 300 chance. So if this was true then, and is true now, that means the elite runs would be 1 in 30 or 40 chance.

However, exposing the drop rates has been taboo in games forever, so you will never get a real, long lasting number.

the only reason for not exposing droprates is so that we can't complain about how abysmal they are and they can still say they drop.

The reason they should post them has been made clear numerous times with the drowned priest torch being the most recent we were told it was dropping keep looking but then eventually after people wasted real money using shards for rolls they looked into it and found it wasn't dropping.

If +6 tomes are an indication of the drop rates aswell it might as well be zero if they are actually dropping with how many times we have run it on EE as a community ONE should have dropped by now.

Drop rates could be argued about and would be even if they posted numbers but that would only be the case if they made them absurdly low which is the case for some things ESOS shard I'm looking at you 500+ runs on a range of difficulties and I have never seen one drop for anyone in a party.

[slarden]

This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

Regardless of the drop rate you have a 10x better chance to get it on EE vs. EH. Grinding is always optional in this game.

I think these items are meant to be rare and it's likely related to the feedback that people farmed all the loot from 3bc and now have no reason to run the quests.

[Lifespawn]

Regardless of the drop rate you have a 10x better chance to get it on EE vs. EH. Grinding is always optional in this game.

I think these items are meant to be rare and it's likely related to the feedback that people farmed all the loot from 3bc and now have no reason to run the quests.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here I will grind for a 1% change to get 1 of 4 types of helms I will not grind for a 10th of a percent chance.

[JOTMON]

I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

/Agreed.

I have not seen a +6 tome drop in EE Deathwyrm or Peaks.

The only place I saw +6 tomes drop was into my inventory when I blew a wad of cash purchasing them from the DDO store.
and that is pretty much what I expected when even after 60+ Runs of these raids (14 of those EE) and I have not seen any drop or anyone link one in guild or channels.

Perhaps someday they will admit they never intended to be dropped or were bugged.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I'll still run content once I have the loot for leveling and fun, but I do agree that BTCoE is an extra incentive, and sometimes I will farm quests for loot to sell. A good game economy gives people another reason to play. Of course that breaks quickly if duping isn't fixed .

Fun offers no replay value

[slarden]

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here I will grind for a 1% change to get 1 of 4 types of helms I will not grind for a 10th of a percent chance.

It's difficult to discuss hypothetical drop rates - all we know at this point is the ratio between EH and EE.

The only thing we know for certain is that any system the devs come up with will result in complaints by the community.

Grinding is never required in this game. It's always self-inflicted.

[Qhualor]

It's difficult to discuss hypothetical drop rates - all we know at this point is the ratio between EH and EE.

The only thing we know for certain is that any system the devs come up with will result in complaints by the community.

Grinding is never required in this game. It's always self-inflicted.

its not self inflicted if you are choosing to grind. people wont care so much about grind as long as they see steady progress. if +6 tomes dropped about as often as +4 tomes did in TOD years ago, there wouldn't be many complaints about the droprates in Deathwyrm.

I agree that powerful items, especially at cap, should have low drop rates to keep players busy doing something, but not to the point that +6 tomes are considered nonexistent by everyone.

[slarden]

its not self inflicted if you are choosing to grind. people wont care so much about grind as long as they see steady progress. if +6 tomes dropped about as often as +4 tomes did in TOD years ago, there wouldn't be many complaints about the droprates in Deathwyrm.

I agree that powerful items, especially at cap, should have low drop rates to keep players busy doing something, but not to the point that +6 tomes are considered nonexistent by everyone.

Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

[Qhualor]

Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

I was using tomes as a good example of grind.

self inflicted would refer to doing something you don't want to do. if you are grinding than you want to do it.

[Lifespawn]

Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

have to have something to do at cap a grind with a tangible return will make the quests last longer than 2-3 months and no1 posts a drop so people give up.

1 drop in 50 runs will make me do it on alts instead of just trying for my main therefore keeping me busy much longer Especially if they aren't bound and can be resold 1 drop in 300-400 will not

[Oxarhamar]

Here we are again with the problem plaguing MMOs in general these days: people don't want to play the game, they just want rewards. If a quest doesn't give you anything, why do it. If you can buy an item from a quest without doing the quest itself, why do it. If a harder difficulty doesn't give a reward, why do it.

Yes we want something from the quests other than the quests itself.

We want more than the ever devalued platinum for named items.

This is not a new problem players love to trade others hate it.





Hey I post my auctions on the AH ASAH for exponentially lower than others because, I don't want the items coming back in the mail. I want them used by a player that can use them.

Then I think of all the wonderful items in the LOD chain left in the chest useless BTA.