Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[iPuffinstuff]

I understand most of the posters here have played this game for an extended period of time, have excellent gear and a few have several past lifes if not completionist. From these player's perspective EE Is very easy. From a new players perspective who only has normal loot gen items, wasn't around when the raids were actually still being ran and does not have a bevy of raid weapons laying around EE is still a struggle. I have managed to get a pure ranger aa to level 25, a pure drow sorc to 27, a bard/ftr/rog to 24 and 3 others in the epic levels. My friend who has played less than a month has his Ken focused great axe bf at 28 in LD, none of my toons can compete with the damage he dishes out. My aa in Fury has to land 10 20's to get the max damage while he spams his tactical feat before we even meet an enemy. I get a few bursts of dps on the long road to my max damage while he is a hurricane from the beginning. Blitz is overpowered but does not need to be nerfed. Instead, the other destinies need to have there epic moments reworked to be able to actually be epic. Master's does not need a helping hand though. Allowing them to keep it up by just hitting a creature is not the answer. Redistributing the power from beginning to end is in my opinion a good idea. And to the Spell users who say magic is already behind..say what? Yes the save dc's of epic are way to high but to say they are behind melees in damage is just false. My sorc can dish out 4 time the amount of damage masters blitz can...IF of course I can land them. Running through EE Tor with a Wiz, I on my melee LD, I didn't have a chance to kill anything. The Wizard was instakilling everything in sight. That's OP, not melee.
That is my 2c. On a last note, instead of changing LD why not try and fix it first? Momentum swing sometimes does no damage, lay waste is sometimes put on timer by cleaves. That is buggy and very annoying.

[Monkey_Archer]

Umm you were playing a ranged toon lol.

At least that was the conclusion i came too based on the screenshot.

sure blitz with manyshot can trivialize a quest but that was not WAI.

And that completion by your ranged character has what to do with a thread/discussion about melee?

Both valid points I guess. I consider my rogue a melee character that plays nothing like a moncher, but I suppose a screenshot doesn't really show how I play it. And the fact that I do use ranged makes it inappropriate for this thread. So I did it on my paladin just for you

[Wipey]

I can't believe the amount of people still advocating for Blitz. It's been utterly broken and overpowered since Motu release.
At least Shade's "version" didn't make it to live lol.
It completely overshadows every other option and kills character building / making choices.

Such easy buttons shouldn't ever be introduced in the game ( well if the game had enough population/interest to support play testing on Lamannia, not the current " let's release whatever - fix / nerf later" thing ).

We all use it ( Blitz quests, kill trash in 2 hits, ridiculous kill counts in pug raids, shout at poor newbs in raids that ****ed our trash ) but it's completely party unfriendly.
How about people actually stop caring / lobbying about their favourite cheesy / broken/ easy mode thing and think about how such thing affects the game as a whole.
Then maybe current " meta" wouldn't be " hit the air outside the quest 50 times then stomp the quest ".

Didn't do much math™ yet, but I don't think buffing all destinies to current Blitz power is good either. There is already monstrous difference between let's say Wizard/Cleric/Druid single target dps and Blitzing melee.

Tl;dr FINALLY clip the wings of bs Blitz and buff other melee destinies to somewhat less than half the power of current Blitzer.

PS Cool solos Monkey Archer.

[Mryal]

Its getting hard to post something usefull in here.But thats to be expected, any discussion that extends for this long usually gets this way.
Theres a lot of talk here and in other forum threads about playstile, how x is better than y, how im elite and zerg trought EE content like it was nothing, how my ..... is bigger than yours, etc.Well, if everyone thats claiming to do so have such a great playstyle.They will not have a problem adapting to a no 250 on kill blitz world.We are all veterans afterall isnt it?
When Motu came and suddenly my SS bard had to care about spell pen (and a lot at that), i adapted.
When enhancements came and my monk builds were killed due to the changes in paladin defender stances, i adapted.
When ddo and pugging scenario shifted from always having a healer to always having to care of yourself, i adapted.
And im not a great player, i die, i try, i run EH,EE,EN, and i pug, i do stupid mistakes, i dont know how do most puzzles, i dont remember most traps, idont even remember the way to most quests.I do what i do because its fun, not because i have something to prove.Not because im looking for fame online.

Do the people that are asking for blitz to remain as is represent a significant slice in the community? Do they represent any slice at all? How often do they pug.I play on Argonessen daily, and i can say for a fact that the ones from this server do not.I pug mostly everyday, what do i see? I see artis in fatesinger, i see rangers in primal, i see paladins in primal too and everyone wants to try and do something usefulll, the amount of people that are wanting to use LD and blitz is not big.I see people in LD runing trought quests doing mostly nothing because the blitz mechanic doesnt lets em do much , specialy if theres a whole load of casters picking on everything instantly.
Once again i say : blitz is a design failure.Let it be fixed.We will all move on after

[poltt48]

I know it has been said but the numbers are to high. Right now you can only have 1 blitzer in your party or raid so the melee doing 250% more damage is not a big thing. But with this change you could have 6 melee doing 250% more damage witch is just way overpowered. Will really hurt the balance your trying to make. Also in a raid with bunch of melee would break the balance to would make the raid way to easy.

[Varinon]

I know it has been said but the numbers are to high. Right now you can only have 1 blitzer in your party or raid so the melee doing 250% more damage is not a big thing. But with this change you could have 6 melee doing 250% more damage witch is just way overpowered. Will really hurt the balance your trying to make. Also in a raid with bunch of melee would break the balance to would make the raid way to easy.

175%, not 250% technically. Not quite as bad, but still really strong. I'm unsure if the utility of the other EDs will outweigh 100% extra damage from LD. Divine Champion is a good competitor. I think the patch is in a good place now (except scale weapon effects please!), and needs to make it to Lam to test it.

[EllisDee37]

175%, not 250% technically. Not quite as bad, but still really strong. I'm unsure if the utility of the other EDs will outweigh 100% extra damage from LD. Divine Champion is a good competitor. I think the patch is in a good place now (except scale weapon effects please!), and needs to make it to Lam to test it.

Not even 175%, really, because every else is getting bumped.

Quick example:

On live...
4 melees in a party, each does a base damage of (simple math) 100 damage. That's 400 total, but one guy is blitzing for +250, so he does 350 all by himself, plus 300 from the other three guys for a total of 650. Compared to the 400 they'd do without blitz, that's a 62.5% increase (250 / 400) in party damage from blitz when one guy turns it on.

Proposed...
4 melees in a party, each does a base damage of (simple math) 100 damage. They all get +70 damage from cores and destiny levels, for a total of 680 base damage. Now they all turn on blitz, jumping up another 400 total damage (100 each) for a total party output of 1080. That's an increase of 58.8% (400 / 680) damage from blitz when everyone in the group turns it on.

I think I see how the devs settled on those numbers.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I demand a nerf to 10 k stars, fury of the wild not working with ranged weapons, slayer arrows by removing it, finger of death, magic missles to be 1 missle only which isn't going to be affected by double rainbow or any shiradi procc, assasine, everything is nothing, and so on... please nerf all of these abilities thanks.

i agree with this both in principle, on the strength of the title of that post, and the fact that it is a demand.

well done sir.

[Monkey_Archer]

I demand a nerf to 10 k stars, fury of the wild not working with ranged weapons, slayer arrows by removing it, finger of death, magic missles to be 1 missle only which isn't going to be affected by double rainbow or any shiradi procc, assasine, everything is nothing, and so on... please nerf all of these abilities thanks.

I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but this one does bring up a good point. I don't really think finger, assassinate or EIN are that problematic, as they have significant opportunity costs. The others could actually qualify as bug fixes rather then nerfs though. Adrenaline does state "your next melee or ranged attack", not "your next melee or next 4 ranged attacks" so some consistency could be in order here (at the very least let offhands, glances and doublestrikes proc adrenaline as well if ranged doesn't get nerfed). For shiradi its very similar, it says nothing about "on spell damage" and rather just "spells" indicating that multiple shiradi procs from magic missiles may also be considered a bug.

I hope in the future there will be another dev diary about ranged and spell casters, as there are many ranged builds (non-monk shiradi archers) and caster builds (magister wizards) that are as equally far behind as the melees that are getting help from these melee power changes.

[Nédime]

I was lead here by the whining in the general forum. After reading Sev's edited OP some things come to my mind :

- I appreciate the changes in LD. Cleaving at dungeon's entrance or on our ship was ridiculous. While maintaining 10 stacks of blitz when soloing was kinda fun (urgent rushing), it is not very pleasant for groups.
- I really appreciate the new perspective his thinking might offer solo melees, and groups of melees.
- Whiners will always whine, and the rest will adapt. Most of us will like the changes, because no one loves a static game. Understanding the changes, and learning to benefit from them in new builds/tactics is what will extend the game's life
- I also appreciate the incentive on teamwork which is why we play MMO, if we'd wanted individual challenge only there are plenty of FPS. This should also benefit the game's life.


If that implies that some (so-called) uber soloists will find it a little more difficult to solo EE endgame, that's cool. If they're really uber they'll appreciate the challenge which will extend their gaming experience. If they're not, the door's open, losing a couple core is less important to the game than retaining a large number of average players.

[Thrudh]

Blitz is not party friendly and is the only effective melee destiny currently both of which make the game less fun.

This.

This is why I support what the devs are doing... Trying to make blitz more group friendly and trying to make other melee destinies effective.

Personally, I think blitz bonus should be even stronger... but with a limited timer, and a decent-sized cooldown.

If Blitz is going to be always-on (not really a epic "moment" there), then it needs to be weaker... which is what the devs appear to be doing..

[Thrudh]

The amount of people that can and currently solo EE with LD is not very high, that seems to be a big misconception by people.

I don't think that even 20% of the player population are happy with these changes.

These two statements don't make any sense together...

Very few players are soloing EE with LD... Everyone else is getting a huge buff with these changes... Why would more than 80% of the population be unhappy with these changes?

I'm quite sure 99% of players will be very happy to see higher damage numbers.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

quick thought concerning mp, rp, and hybrids (rangers).



give fury and primal both mp and rp, shiradi lots of rp, ld lots of mp, and the other melee destinies some mp.

ld retains being the most dps focused. any hardcore tempests who forget they even have a bow can continue to use this if they want.

dc, sd, gmof, uny gain a slight buff to increase general performance (dont overkill it here, they all have other advantages to just dps to consider...).

shiradi gives lots of rp (maybe more rp than ld gets mp) so that ranged heavy characters dont complain (personally i dont think shiradi is that awful when you consider the combat style it is supposed to affect, but there will be many noobs who wont want to lose the easy mode dps and will scream about it (this is assuming fury shotting is fixed or nerfed)).

fury and primal give roughly equal mp and rp so that rangers have destinies which support being a hybrid class and is thematically appropriate (primal sphere).

[Amideus]

I tried to get through the thread but after about 10 pages I was so fed up with a lot of what I was reading, I wanted to just put all my concerns in one post and if it has been addressed let it be so.

First: Stop complaining about the potential for ranged classes to lose bonuses from blitz and LD. It is SPECIFICALLY designed with melee weapon fighters in mind. Ranged has ranged specific builds as well. Don't act like the arguement of "don't nerf X thing that makes the game easy mode for my broken exploiting character because I might have to change to something that actually makes sense" is something for you to hide behind. Ranged characters don't have ED's because the selection is low? What about the selection for melee? Fatesinger is subpar unless you're a bard and then it's still subpar because you're a bard. LD is the go to destiny for EVERYONE. Shiradi offers no real benefit for melee. FOTW causes major animation interruptions and other issues, the divine sphere is filled with defensive and hybrid caster builds in mind, not melee. People arguing that Blitz not affecting ranged ruins ranged builds are wrong, all it does it bring you in line with melee. Guess what you shouldn't be better than melee builds, get over that.

Second: The idea of rolling Blitz power into lower tier abilities to create build up over time while leveling is great, and adding power to other destinies is superb. This means instead of having to completely scratch all my melee builds that would want destinies other than LD and be forced into a single destiny is no more. It gives WAY more flexibility to players and I like that. I've blitzed in party's and felt like I might as well have been soloing, everyone else was just there for buffing.

Third: This is kind of a request more than anything, as it's an issue that deserves some conversation. The removal of shield mastery benefits for SWF swashbucklers using Skirmisher. PLEASE DO NOT SIMPLY REMOVE THIS FEATURE. This is my current build after having my last three butchered by knee-jerk reaction "fixes" and if it goes through I would seriously consider cancelling my sub and looking for another game. Yes it's a lot of bonuses stacked onto a single melee, perhaps too much that overshadows TWF and THF. BUT, and this is a big BUT, removing this benefit from Skirmisher completely undermines the ability to use skirmisher for swashbuckling builds and makes it a much weaker choice. Bucklers are already the weakest shields in the game and offer very very few options for endgame items outside loot-gen. Using a buckler should be relegated for defensive builds that want to benefit from a combination of defense and offense. You can gain Stalwart Defense stance bonuses to stats from using Skirmisher, dodge, some AC bonuses and stat from an offhand item. But removing the benefit fully from shield mastery feats kills using Unyielding Sentinels shield bonus abilities, since they require the feats to be able to train them. So you are basically feat taxing skirmisher tank builds for no benefit. Instead of completely removing the benefit from shield mastery for SB, make them offer less advantage to buckler users, as most effects that specify shield benefits usually do. I wouldn't be opposed to losing melee power completely and only gaining half the doublestrike from them when using a buckler. I can see the concerns for double-dipping but it's counter intuitive to remove a benefit of a combination of multiple abilities that SHOULD work together within the confines of the games logic. I'm choosing to forgo more damage oriented benefits to use a weaker shield to gain a hybrid defense and damage benefit. Lot's of things combo with the shield mastery feats and SWF, so simply tone down the higher level benefit instead of locking out builds. It would be yet another unarmed treatment where you look at a combat style, say hey why does everything melee oriented here say "doesn't work specifically with your style" and you get left behind because all the other combat styles do it better because nothing restricts them.

[Synthetic]

I like the melee power change for other Epic Destinies and leveling. It should give higher level characters an advantage when it's needed while not increasing power at lower epic levels as much.

I'd like to see you add ranged power to the leveling at least, but understand the current monkcher situation doesn't really make that possible. Please keep FoTW, and blitz ranged working though as non-monkcher ranged is not overpowered currently, and won't be relevant in Epics without it.

Blitz change I agree with as I never thought Blitz was tough to keep up - though it could be tough to start if you're unfamiliar with the ability - and it will probably continue to be the best physical damage ability even with the change. The charging mechanic is just silly as it's either extremely long and annoying or a trivial pre-requisite depending on if you have cleave/g cleave - which already give access to the great momentum swing and lay waste abilities, and are extremely useful.

THF I'm not really seeing the need for this change unless you're changing all weapon fighting abilities to work while moving. THF currently has an advantage while moving of glancing blows on cleaves, higher strength, power attack bonuses, higher base damage dice, and longer reach. TWF on the other hand loses off hand procs when moving so if you move you're just swinging one weapon. Since movement is so key to this game you need to at least change TWF and SWF to keep their bonuses while moving. I think adding 20% more base damage is going to give to much damage to THF in single target situations and the game is already fairly biased toward THF since cleaving is the best way of clearing trash where THF has the most advantage - glancing blows on cleaves and longer reach.

Overwhelming critical pre-requisite change is a good idea as everyone wants it, but the pre-requisites force a certain build - though suggestions to add more feats that are competitive would work this change seems to be the simplest fix.

I also agree with the removal of shield mastery feats while using SWF, and hopefully you're fixing all the other stacking of different combat styles. SWF is hardly OP unless people take advantage of the double strike bonuses from SM and US. It also makes the bard dashing scoundrel enhancement appear completely lackluster - because you can instead get even higher double strike and huge amounts of dodge if you take the feats - even though it's one of the best damage increases in any enhancement line. I respect that the devs decided to let it go into live so they could see if it worked out, but leaving it in while people complain that SWF is outshining the other combat styles is just going to cause an unjustified nerf to SWF for builds that can't or don't take both.

Cheers

S

[Eth]

First: Stop complaining about the potential for ranged classes to lose bonuses from blitz and LD. It is SPECIFICALLY designed with melee weapon fighters in mind. Ranged has ranged specific builds as well.

I'd rather wish people would stop forgetting that there are builds that utilize ranged combat and melee combat. What about those?

[Amideus]

I'd rather wish people would stop forgetting that there are builds that utilize ranged combat and melee combat. What about those?

Those builds sacrifice their potential power for the ability to use both styles of combat. Why should someone be able to have a build that excels at both ranged and melee as powerfully as pure ranged and pure melee. You should have to decide where to load your power with the ability to switch when needed, rather than just being given the power to both all the time. That's called balance.

[harry-pancreas]

I agree with this honestly.

It makes no sense to me to reduce the potency of all the ED and Epic levels, but keep Blitz at the same levels. With Blitz adding 100 MP, it means Blitz still makes a bigger difference on melee DPS than all the epic levels and cores combined. That just goes against the stated reason for the change of spreading out Blitz's power into leveling.

I say boost the Destiny Core buffs back to 10 per level, and reduce Blitz down to 50-75 melee boost. Then the epic levels and cores will mean more than one destiny ability.

I'm also against Blitz adding anything to Ranged Damage. LD is a melee tree through and through. None of the other abilities work with Ranged at all. Even Blitz itself states that it only works with Melee. If people really wanted Ranged Power added somewhere, they should be asking for it added to destinies that really support ranged, such as Shiradi Champion, Shadowdancer, Fatesinger, or even Fury of the Wild.

at the beggning of the thread it was 150% for everyone, extra 100% for blitz. That makes it double damage when blitzing.
Now it's from 70% for everyone, extra 100% for blitz. That makes it double damage when blitzing.
So it's the same...am i wrong ? (i'd wager i'm missing something...am i?)

edit: i do get the nerf from what we got on live (+250% dmg) to these possible changes (175%), but that's another discussion ofc

[harry-pancreas]

To clarify the updated OP, Blitz is an additional 100 Melee Power for a total of 175. That said, it is easier to maintain and works on long boss fights.

We are in the process of examining Master's Blitz with ranged attacks. For the time being we will likely add Ranged Power to the Master's Blitz buff as well as Melee Power.

Sev~

Isn't the intention to bring melee's up to the ranged/Caster levels of power ?
Would you be doing it if you keep the ranged blitzing ? I mean, a melee blitzer gets more damage, in exchange of being face to face with the mean mob trying to kill him.
The ranged toon can afford to make less damage than melee, 'cause he is out of range and does not get hit.
With ranged blitzing there is no trade off, i get a huge bonus whether i'm face to face and getting hit or not.

[Amideus]

Isn't the intention to bring melee's up to the ranged/Caster levels of power ?
Would you be doing it if you keep the ranged blitzing ? I mean, a melee blitzer gets more damage, in exchange of being face to face with the mean mob trying to kill him.
The ranged toon can afford to make less damage than melee, 'cause he is out of range and does not get hit.
With ranged blitzing there is no trade off, i get a huge bonus whether i'm face to face and getting hit or not.

This is my problem. They don't want to change or nerf ranged classes right now like this, but they are fine to constantly screw over any melee build. Look at how they have handled all the changes so far.

Instant death effects too powerful in EE? Nerf Quivering Palm instead of the DOZENS of ranged kill options that are arguably more effective.
Trying to add melee power to buff melees? Let's remove shield mastery bonuses from swashbucklers completely for relatively little reason.
Want to bring melee ED potential up closer to ranged by reallocating Blitz power? Decides an obvious bug that benefits ranged should be made WAI.

They seem to only care about stepping on toes when it is directed at all the ranged builds that are ruining the dynamic of EE content. Why bother grouping for anything anymore, just load up a ranged blitz build and go to town. Kiting and exploiting are the number one players in endgame content, healers tanks and melee be damned.