Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Bridge_Dweller]

Let me discuss ranged Master's Blitz with the team. If it's bugged to work with ranged this might not be the time to fix it. We aren't looking to nerf builds. We could, for example, make Master's Blitz increase Ranged Power to match its current functionality.

Sev~

Works or not it doesn't matter, it's not working as described. It's been bugged and broken for years, nerf the hell out of them.

[Severlin]

This isn't just swashbuckler. Any character who may not have bard levels can still acquire the SWF feats, which as we have already established, give 30% attack speed and 200% stat benefit. Now, these same characters (if not monk splashed) generally acquire an orb or a shield in their offhand to augment their DPS by the doublestrike values they provide AND to twist an additional 7% from legendary shield mastery from sentinel tree.

None of the Single Weapon Fighting feats function with anything in the off hand, except in the case of the Swashbuckler with, well, a buckler.

Compare a thunder-forged falchion to a thunder-forged bastard sword. There's a situation where a single weapon has a higher base damage than a two-hander.

At the cost of a feat and threat range.

Additionally, THF has more strength bonus until you introduced the greater single weapon fighting feat, which makes said bastard sword receive 50% MORE stat benefit than your two-hander.

But it loses out on Power Attack bonuses and 20 Melee Power which multiplies Deadly, Enchantment, and straight weapon damage bonuses like Ranger favored enemy and racials.

Now, if you are suggesting that at the highest level of Strength that attribute bonus is perhaps too good then we are probably in agreement. But only because the Cleave feats devalue Glancing Blows.

Once Glancing Blows can be used while moving I think that will help, even with the Cleaves.

Sev~

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes, because they have glancing blows, better base weapon damage that multiplies with +x[W] effects, and 20% melee power which will multiply general weapon bonuses which the attribute bonus does not.

That said, if you are suggesting that SWF is very strong in Strength builds where the attribute bonus is exaggerated then I'd agree with you.

Sev~

Yes of course there are several factors benefiting THF over SWF now, I was just pointing out that one thing. I'm in the process of running the math on these changes, but overall I like it a lot. Except in those exaggerated attribute cases, I'd say this and glancing blows while moving will make the two styles highly competitive. Of course there is still the issue of TWF being behind until acquiring dual tier 3 thunderforge...

[Severlin]

Isn't this a backwards way of balancing things? If 1 ability is more powerful than all others then fix that 1 ability, don't change everything else in the game.

Our main goal isn't "fixing" Master's Blitz. The main goal of these changes is to allow static damage abilities to scale at later levels.

We also like that leveling after 20 gives additional benefit.

Sev~

[Cetus]

None of the Single Weapon Fighting feats function with anything in the off hand, except in the case of the Swashbuckler with, well, a buckler.

At the cost of a feat and threat range.

In the case of falchion vs. bastard sword - the two-hander has better threat range, but tiny lower base damage. 2d4 vs 1d10 = 5 vs. 5.5

In the case of greatsword vs. bastard sword - the two-hander does NOT have better threat range - but a small increase in base damage. 7 vs 5.5

Your base damage argument is simply insignificant compared to the SWF perks gained. We're talking .5 and 1.5 base damage differences - even with all the W currently available, the 30% perma-haste, shield mastery derived doublestrike, and 50% extra stat benefit that is EXCLUSIVE to SWF destroy it.

But it loses out on Power Attack bonuses and 20 Melee Power which multiplies Deadly, Enchantment, and straight weapon damage bonuses like Ranger favored enemy and racials.

Power attack damage difference is 5 (11 with a PA line). The 20 melee power ***IS AVAILABLE** to both fighting styles - this isn't exclusive to THF as the permahaste, 200% stat benefit, and shield mastery derived doublestrikes are for SWF. This is my point.

Now, if you are suggesting that at the highest level of Strength that attribute bonus is perhaps too good then we are probably in agreement. But only because the Cleave feats devalue Glancing Blows.

What? Cleaves proc glancing blows. I'm not sure how cleaves devalue them, when while cleaving, they proc - and since cleaves give +w bonuses on the front number, the glances are actually supposed to be higher, since its a % of a higher front number now.

[Monkey_Archer]

snip

I think you might be overreacting now. If all the changes Sev has mentioned manage to go through bug free, THF will once again be top dps for the builds that favor it (Kensai, Barbs, etc..). By a somewhat significant margin as well, if my estimate/calculations are correct.

[Severlin]

My response was specifically to your concern that players could gain the benefit of both SWF and the Shield feats. None of those will make the Shield feats work.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.

Your base damage argument is simply insignificant compared to the SWF perks gained. We're talking .5 and 1.5 base damage differences - even with all the W currently available, the 30% perma-haste, shield mastery derived doublestrike, and 50% extra stat benefit that is EXCLUSIVE to SWF destroy it.

Power attack damage difference is 5 (11 with a PA line). The 20 melee power ***IS AVAILABLE** to both fighting styles - this isn't exclusive to THF as the permahaste, 200% stat benefit, and shield mastery derived doublestrikes are for SWF. This is my point.

Good feedback, but I think we want to see how the additional Melee Power and the ability to use Glancing Blows while moving work before talking about nerfing SWF, especially since it was just released.

Sev~

[Ladislaio]

Ranged builds will be looked into at some future date, but not for the Armor Up update.

Sev~

Does this mean you are *not* going to ensure that the current LD and Fury abilities continue to work as they do on live for this update?

[blerkington]

Does this mean you are *not* going to ensure that the current LD and Fury abilities continue to work as they do on live for this update?

Hi,

Yes, I'm concerned about this too, as are some of the other posters in this thread. It's difficult to evaluate what Severlin has told us about melee power changes without similar information for ranged power.

If some destinies are receiving increases in both areas, while others aren't, people will want to know. I know it could be an issue for my main's build, and I can see that people who prefer to run in Fury, LD and SD are also concerned.

This is a particularly pressing issue for hybrid builds. I don't want to be in a situation where the melee power pass is done, only to find out later on how ranged is working, then be told it's too late to revisit melee.

Thanks.

[nayozz]

you forgot to add melee power to the bard destiny

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both primal and divine trees have 2 epic destinies with bonus melee power

martial has all 3 destinies with bonus melee power...

why not give in the arcane tree, bonus to melee power into the bard tree... what about all those bard skalds ? cant both get boost at songs and the 150 melee power ?
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also about 2 handed weapon and shield feat...

what about making all those feats add +10 melee power, for a total of +30 instead of +20 ?

[Cetus]

My response was specifically to your concern that players could gain the benefit of both SWF and the Shield feats. None of those will make the Shield feats work.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.


Sev~

The shield mastery feats work when an orb is in your offhand.

[Cetus]

I think you might be overreacting now. If all the changes Sev has mentioned manage to go through bug free, THF will once again be top dps for the builds that favor it (Kensai, Barbs, etc..). By a somewhat significant margin as well, if my estimate/calculations are correct.

If you are talking about the glances-while-moving buff AND the 20 melee power given to THF while divorcing the shield mastery feats that also have them from the SWF line, then we'd have an exclusive buff to THF constituting a 20% extra base damage with glances-while-moving that SWF line can't benefit from (unless you use a glancing SWF, then it would benefit from the latter).

This buff, albeit still relatively minor, would certainly close in on the gap. I don't see the significant margin you are talking about however.

[Monkey_Archer]

If you are talking about the glances-while-moving buff AND the 20 melee power given to THF while divorcing the shield mastery feats that also have them from the SWF line, then we'd have an exclusive buff to THF constituting a 20% extra base damage with glances-while-moving that SWF line can't benefit from (unless you use a glancing SWF, then it would benefit from the latter).

This buff, albeit still relatively minor, would certainly close in on the gap. I don't see the significant margin you are talking about however.

Your own videos show SWF only has about a 15-20% lead for your particular build. The 20 melee power alone will basically close that gap. Not to mention there are other builds and destinies that have better synergy with THF then a blitzing centered kensai. I'm pretty sure you know what glancing blows while moving means to a skilled player as well.

Yes, there will still be certain swashbucker builds that have additional gains, but thats more an issue with swashbucker, and not SWF by itself.

[lain5246]

Not sure where that 150/250 number comes from.



~ We have a lot of feedback that the mechanics of Master's Blitz makes players using it actively not want to group and players who don't use it not want to group with those who do. There are instances of people getting upset when a non-blitzer gets a killing blow. That's not good.



We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.



Two handed weapons have higher base damage, more strength bonus, and extra Power Attack.

Sev~

I have a 10 bard/6 fighter/ 2 rogue that uses swf/shield mastery/cleave- great cleave and it saddens me that it is being declared unintended. especially since I am restricted to using certain weapons that on average are less optimal for dmg. I am extremely in favor of leaving this "bug" be as the only way to achieve the combo is using bard (possibly getting more bard builds). and the weapon restrictions help balance out this "issue." But since we are on the subject, is it wai for the bastard sword and dwarven axe to allow both shield feats and thf? I hope that the devs will consider leaving this be as it adds flavor and promotes using splash classes other than rogue, monk, Paladin, and fighter.

[Monkey_Archer]

But since we are on the subject, is it wai for the bastard sword and dwarven axe to allow both shield feats and thf?

That was an intended change to keep those exotic weapons on par with khopesh. It will be a bit odd to keep that mechanic working however, after the SWF+shield and druid nonsense gets fixed. Removing that interaction without destroying bastard sword/Daxe builds is a bit more difficult considering how weak those builds already are right now. SWF without 7% doublstrike will still be strong.

[Nayus]

The shield mastery feats work when an orb is in your offhand.

Sev said you shouldn't be able to take SWF and Shield Mastery at the same time, thus negating any argument about Shield Mastery and DPS.

And to be honest, this isn't all about THF vs SWF, you're biased by Cetus vs SWF and a Cetus build has sky-high STR. SWF is designed to benefit more from STR.

[lain5246]

I have a 10 bard/6 fighter/ 2 rogue that uses swf/shield mastery/cleave- great cleave and it saddens me that it is being declared unintended. especially since I am restricted to using certain weapons that on average are less optimal for dmg. I am extremely in favor of leaving this "bug" be as the only way to achieve the combo is using bard (possibly getting more bard builds). and the weapon restrictions help balance out this "issue." But since we are on the subject, is it wai for the bastard sword and dwarven axe to allow both shield feats and thf? I hope that the devs will consider leaving this be as it adds flavor and promotes using splash classes other than rogue, monk, Paladin, and fighter.

I need to explore the benefits of having an orb in my off hand but I am pretty sure that It will only aid casters that are trying to be melee and not get spell failure and/or keep casting ability up to snuff.

[Karrai]

Let me discuss ranged Master's Blitz with the team. If it's bugged to work with ranged this might not be the time to fix it. We aren't looking to nerf builds. We could, for example, make Master's Blitz increase Ranged Power to match its current functionality.

Sev~

Let me discuss ranged Master's Blitz with the team. If it's bugged to work with ranged this might not be the time to fix it. We aren't looking to nerf builds. We could, for example, make Master's Blitz increase Ranged Power to match its current functionality.

Sev~

This is the perfect time to remove ranged from working with Master Blitz. Players complain that effects don't match the descriptions. Mater Blitz working with range is not as intended. Stand up for once an say range working with Blitz is not as intended. If players wated to make a build around a bug which took forever to fix, its on them.

Master's Blitz description states melee not Melee and Ranged.

Even the fluff states its a melee centric tree.
"Undisputed lord of the battlefield, the Legendary Dreadnought is capable of melee maneuvers that make enemies quake then fall, never to stand again.

This Martial Epic Destiny excels at melee battle and specializes in improved combat feats such as sunder and stunning blow. When in full swing the dreadnought deals massive physical damage and sends enemies reeling. "

[lain5246]

That was an intended change to keep those exotic weapons on par with khopesh. It will be a bit odd to keep that mechanic working however, after the SWF+shield and druid nonsense gets fixed. Removing that interaction without destroying bastard sword/Daxe builds is a bit more difficult considering how weak those builds already are right now. SWF without 7% doublstrike will still be strong.

Sorry, I was not trying to get those nerfed. My intention was to find out what was going on with those as I use bastard swords with my tank builds. also I was trying to promote letting to inherent restrictions be the ruling separator not have every one of these feats be exclusive. But what do I know, right.

[Cetus]

Sev said you shouldn't be able to take SWF and Shield Mastery at the same time, thus negating any argument about Shield Mastery and DPS.

And to be honest, this isn't all about THF vs SWF, you're biased by Cetus vs SWF and a Cetus build has sky-high STR. SWF is designed to benefit more from STR.

Right, but he also appeared to not know about the relationship between those feats and orbs in particular.

Well, wouldn't you want to compare characters that have their damage stats sky-high? I mean, even if SWF did not provide extra stat benefit, you'd still max your damage stat as high as you can. I don't see what your point is here.