Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Grailhawk]

I think tempest is a great tree. TWF is what is lackluster in general. I really don't understand why they give MP with shield and thf feats but twf, which is in the most dire need of a buff.

Tempest is far from a great tree its tier 4 and 5s are almost all garbage (Improved Evasion being the only thing that stops the tier 5's from all being garbage), before Swash and the Paladin improvements this wasn't as big a deal as it is today at this point rangers are the only melee class that do not have +Crit Range or +Crit Multiplier available to them in there trees. Tempest is a very weak tree and rangers have fallen far behind.

[Aelonwy]

Agreed.

Putting 90 Melee Power in Epic levels doesn't make any sense. If you want to make Epic levels RELEVANT, you should make them relevant FOR EVERY CLASS AND NOT JUST MELEES. I'm fine with Melee power being in Epic Destinies, that closes the gap a bit with blitzers. You could make the bonus 100 Melee Power in EDs and scrap the whole Melee Power for Epic levels.

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

We haven't received the whole picture yet. They've mentioned but haven't yet discussed ranged power. Personally. I'd rather see a combined combat power rather than a divided melee/ranged power but whatever. Also if they want to make the Epic levels feel relevant they need to give us more character choices on these levels. In which case the divided melee/ranged could work. Give us a choice of +# melee or ranged or universal spell power per epic level, (amount to be determined) and then we are actually making a relevant build choice.

[Grailhawk]

Blitz affects sneak attack, blitz doesn't affect procs.

With that as the precedent, MP should affect Sneak Attack as well. I don't believe it should affect procs.

If it doesn't affect procs then it will be bias against TWF I'm not really a fan of this new system throwing the old balance between TWF and THF out of whack, SWF has done enough of that for my taste already.

[Wizza]

We haven't received the whole picture yet. They've mentioned but haven't yet discussed ranged power. Personally. I'd rather see a combined combat power rather than a divided melee/ranged power but whatever. Also if they want to make the Epic levels feel relevant they need to give us more character choices on these levels. In which case the divided melee/ranged could work. Give us a choice of +# melee or ranged or universal spell power per epic level, (amount to be determined) and then we are actually making a relevant build choice.

This IS the whole picture. Even if they give ranged power as well for Epic levels, they are still screwing up Epic levels for every caster in this game. I don't think this is the right direction to go to make Epic levels relevant.

And the power that they are getting from these Epic levels is OVER THE TOP. 90% free melee damage just for being capped is TOO MUCH. That will increase to 110% when the cap goes to 30. No way this is right, and no way this makes any sense.

You are giving WAY too much power without ANY investment AT ALL and only to CERTAIN classes. This is wrong in every single aspect. And did you actually suggest about giving USP to casters? They are already strong enough. We don't need any USP per epic level.

[Zoda]

What's great about it?

Lets see, it gets:
20% offhand proc
25% offhand DS
5% mainhand DS
Haste Boost
Reflex
Improved Evasion
4 damage
some decent special attacks

More damage than what most trees get. The only melee tree that has a capstone that'd make me play pure (that capstone is just amazing).

Tempest is simply suffering from being tied to the WORST fighting stlye in DDO by far.

[Holleyz]

touch my ranger and I swear I will walk, with my money to some other game not affiliated with warner bros, wizards of the coast or Turbine.

[patang01]

Agreed.

Putting 90 Melee Power in Epic levels doesn't make any sense. If you want to make Epic levels RELEVANT, you should make them relevant FOR EVERY CLASS AND NOT JUST MELEES. I'm fine with Melee power being in Epic Destinies, that closes the gap a bit with blitzers. You could make the bonus 100 Melee Power in EDs and scrap the whole Melee Power for Epic levels.

And what Zoda suggests is cool too. You could put Melee Power in Racial Enhancements like Half-Orcs, looks like the right time to give them a deserved buff.

If you want to buff destinies, then BUFF THE EPIC DESTINIES and don't just give a flat 90 MP to every melee just for being capped.

Then you run the risk of front loading all the melee damage. You end up ETRing and start off at level 20 with maximal DPS and that'll remain unchanged until 28.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.



Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

what about con based? throw your weight around dwarves...

[blackdae]

We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

I'll wait for that day full of hope! *-*

[Wizza]

Then you run the risk of front loading all the melee damage. You end up ETRing and start off at level 20 with maximal DPS and that'll remain unchanged until 28.

Still better than having 90 Spell power just for leveling up. And anyway, you are getting 60 MP now at level 20. My suggestion is to scrap the 90 MP from levels and change the 60 MP in EDs to 100. I don't think having 100 MP will be any worse than the 60 you get.

[Aelonwy]

This IS the whole picture. Even if they give ranged power as well for Epic levels, they are still screwing up Epic levels for every caster in this game. I don't think this is the right direction to go to make Epic levels relevant.

And the power that they are getting from these Epic levels is OVER THE TOP. 90% free melee damage just for being capped is TOO MUCH. That will increase to 110% when the cap goes to 30. No way this is right, and no way this makes any sense.

You are giving WAY too much power without ANY investment AT ALL and only to CERTAIN classes. This is wrong in every single aspect. And did you actually suggest about giving USP to casters? They are already strong enough. We don't need any USP per epic level.

I am not a math person. Formulas are a foreign language to me. I cannot give good feedback on numbers. I can give generalized feedback on how the system looks. I agree that it looks like they are handing out power like candy corn but I've not played LD on a melee only struggled through it on a single character that couldn't use it for much more than the con bonuses.

The tops melee builds using Master's Blitz effectively won't actually see a DPS increase. These changes bring the builds lagging behind closer to the top melee builds.
Sev~

As I understand it from this^ mostly the melee builds that were lagging behind will become more competitive with the top melee builds in LD and that the top builds in LD shouldn't notice much change at all. That is of course assuming Sev knows what he's talking about.

And yes I suggested an unspecified number of usp be given as a choice upon leveling in epic levels. The choices could be 10 melee, 5 ranged or 2 Universal Spell Power... they don't have to be even to be fair.

[Grailhawk]

touch my ranger and I swear I will walk, with my money to some other game not affiliated with warner bros, wizards of the coast or Turbine.

So long, quite simply the class needs a buff given how much love Paladins and Bards have and will receive. Specifically the Tier 4's and 5's need to be improved in the Tempest tree, the core can be left allow although Whirlwind is quite weak relative to other core 18's IMO.

[Wizza]

And yes I suggested an unspecified number of usp be given as a choice upon leveling in epic levels. The choices could be 10 melee, 5 ranged or 2 Universal Spell Power... they don't have to be even to be fair.

They should be fair.

You wanna give melees 90% free damage and casters 10 Spell power? No. This is why this whole thing is pointless. Either they come up with something that is fair for every class and thus making Epic levels relevant in a fair amount for everyone or they don't. There is no middle ground here. There is no "we will give free 90% damage to someone and 1% damage to someone else".

[jakeelala]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

That's because of the insane amount of power you have put into ED's. Also, since anyone can group with anyone in Epics, your level is largely irrelevant except for equipment and Bravery Bonus first time. You don't need to make builds OP with a new system for Melee power to fix that. You need to stratify the levels more clearly, make the scaling in the content more stark, like heroics. at 20/1Epic I can do any epic quest in the game, even on EE. But at Heroic 8 I'm not going to be able to handle level 15 or 16 quests. That's the difference between Epic and Heroic leveling.

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.
Sev~

This isn't entirely true. Just because people don't build and make them doesn't mean the people who do build and make them can't make them competitive. I urge you to look at some of the better stick builds, and CThrutoEgo's Santa's Little Slayer dex based TWF elf.

My throwers are Dex based, and they easily rival any bow based character, Monkcher or otherwise, toe to toe for DPS. I regularly outkill (all difficulties, all quests) blitzing Swashbucklers, THF characters, Monks, you name it.

Some of your blanket statements sound like maybe you are not terribly familiar with end game and builds in DDO. Would you like to run some quests on Khyber with some end game players/builders sometime soon to see if maybe there are some things you might want to consider before making these sweeping drastic changes?

[Delacroix21]

I for one am excited about this melee power change, as I do believe melee across the board need a buff.


That being said these changes do not make certain trees more desirable compared to Legendary Drednaught, simply because some of the other trees just plain suck.


Weak Melee trees=
1. Fatesinger (this IS a hybrid tree, look at the epic moment! But you are not adding melee power?)
2. Primal Avatar
3. Grandmaster of Flowers


Why?
1. Fatesinger= tiny dps boosts (reign and improved inspire courage), horrible epic moment that wont even work on bosses? (in gods name why? i hope the Dev who did this tree and previous bard trees was fired). Needs a TOTAL rework.

2. Primal Avatar= tiny dps boosts (5% and +1 on 19-20, which is now considered next to nothing), worthless epic moment (tree attack speed is SO SLOW its actually a dps decrease if decently geared). Also you sacrifice defense (AC and Evasion) for those baby dps increases. Do you EVER see anyone use this destiny? Tree needs a total rework! Epic moment needs a major attack speed boost, not the "twitch" it was before, but better than live.

3. Grandmaster of Flowers= Petal strikes dont scale and are always saved against for 1/2 damage. (with an impossible 80 wisdom at level 28 has a save of 55, what a joke! Every mob saves vs that!) Petal strikes are designed to do an average of 400 damage, but always do 200 (due to saves) when melee crits can deal 400 damage as is, and have no cooldown or save. These need to scale with melee power. This tree is only used for twists. Epic moment is also garbage with a 65 save (with an impossible 80 wisdom) that mobs will always save against while a Palemaster just casts Wail with a save in the 70s and a much shorter cooldown.

[Takllin]

Then you run the risk of front loading all the melee damage. You end up ETRing and start off at level 20 with maximal DPS and that'll remain unchanged until 28.

Yes, because the gear, feats, augments, etc you have at 20 is the same as what you have at 28...

Did you really just say that? There is a HUGE difference between a characters DPS from 20 to 28...

[Zakharov]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.
Sev~

Yes that's pretty much true but it was clearly a deliberate design decision from turbine when creating epic lvls for MotU. It's been an ongoing pattern of making base class & feat selection less and less important and funneling more character power into enhancements and destinies. I always assumed this was to make it easier for new players who don't like the character building and "rerolling till you get it the way you want it" aspect that many of us like.

If you're looking for an easy(ish) fix to giving meaning to base epic lvls then adding flat power bonuses to them is one way but it should apply to all power not just melee power. Melee, ranged, & spell power should all be treated equally by base epic lvls. At the very least it should be an option given when lvling - choose one of the above as if they were feats. Actually you should add some melee & ranged power feats as well if that's how you are going.

The real answer I think would be to re-design epic destinies to tie in more with epic lvl and expand them to account for the eventual lvl 30 cap. People won't like lvl gating destiny abilities but that's really what you should have done from the beginning - high tier abilities require higher lvl. Expanding each destiny to 10 levels with additional tiers of abilities and exp requirements more closely matching epic lvls should be your eventual goal in my opinion.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Tempest is far from a great tree its tier 4 and 5s are almost all garbage (Improved Evasion being the only thing that stops the tier 5's from all being garbage), before Swash and the Paladin improvements this wasn't as big a deal as it is today at this point rangers are the only melee class that do not have +Crit Range or +Crit Multiplier available to them in there trees. Tempest is a very weak tree and rangers have fallen far behind.

This. Tempest is hitting red-headed-step-child status.

[jakeelala]

I for one am excited about this melee power change, as I do believe melee across the board need a buff.


That being said these changes do not make certain trees more desirable compared to Legendary Drednaught, simply because some of the other trees just plain suck.


Weak Melee trees=
1. Fatesinger (this IS a hybrid tree, look at the epic moment! But you are not adding melee power?)
2. Primal Avatar
3. Grandmaster of Flowers


Why?
1. Fatesinger= tiny dps boosts (reign and improved inspire courage), horrible epic moment that wont even work on bosses? (in gods name why? i hope the Dev who did this tree and previous bard trees was fired). Needs a TOTAL rework.

2. Primal Avatar= tiny dps boosts (5% and +1 on 19-20, which is now considered next to nothing), worthless epic moment (tree attack speed is SO SLOW its actually a dps decrease if decently geared). Also you sacrifice defense (AC and Evasion) for those baby dps increases. Do you EVER see anyone use this destiny? Tree needs a total rework! Epic moment needs a major attack speed boost, not the "twitch" it was before, but better than live.

3. Grandmaster of Flowers= Petal strikes dont scale and are always saved against for 1/2 damage. (with an impossible 80 wisdom at level 28 has a save of 55, what a joke! Every mob saves vs that!) Petal strikes are designed to do an average of 400 damage, but always do 200 (due to saves) when melee crits can deal 400 damage as is, and have no cooldown or save. These need to scale with melee power. This tree is only used for twists. Epic moment is also garbage with a 65 save (with an impossible 80 wisdom) that mobs will always save against while a Palemaster just casts Wail with a save in the 70s and a much shorter cooldown.

These are also weak ranged trees.

[Aelonwy]

They should be fair.

You wanna give melees 90% free damage and casters 10 Spell power? No. This is why this whole thing is pointless. Either they come up with something that is fair for every class and thus making Epic levels relevant in a fair amount for everyone or they don't. There is no middle ground here. There is no "we will give free 90% damage to someone and 1% damage to someone else".

Melee's have to be in melee range, casters do not. There are trade offs to each build other than just raw damage. I play 13 alts, a pure cleric is my main, than a pure ranger AA, a pure wiz, a pure bard that is not yet converted to the NEW BARD stuff, than a slew of multimutts. Melees need a buff, casters not so much. That is why the numbers do not need to be even to be fair. Now what do the numbers need to be, to be fair? That's a different question. If you think casters need a numerically equal buff to melee you are not being honest with yourself.