Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[jalont]

Not with you guys on this one, so far. Youre inventing an entire new system in order to be smoke and mirrors for what really is causing the issue here, which is large arbitrary percentage increases in damage . Instead of removing the large arbitrary increase and replacing it with something more sustainable, you add more damage to one style, nerf the other, then add more stats, and more formulas.

Concepts like adrenaline are OK because you get one huge hit then its back to normal, but when someone runs around with 250% always on damage increase, where did you think melee and ranged were going to flock to? Making it melee only doesn't balance the game better. It gives melee one great option, one good option, and a bunch of terrible options. Ranged will be in the same boat, and if you remove its ability to work with those arbitrary damage increases, youre just making it mediocre. This is not balance.

In order to balance to occur, you must remove the arbitrary damage increases that are for one archetype only, then replace them with sustainable damage options for all, and an epic moment that allows characters to be user for ~30 seconds or so then they come back to reality. The fate singers epic moment is a perfect example, and should be used as a blueprint for other epic moments as a design blueprint.

Turbine gave too much power in sustainable arbitrary damage multipliers, then left it in the game too long, then announce what will effectively a nerf which doesn't even address what the real issue is in the first place. If you want to get this right, youll stop putting all of the melee power in one place, then wondering why other archetypes flock there too.

I think this will make more destinies viable (whatever that means). I know people that still insist on running in US for some reason. They'll definitely be stronger... and that goes for all other destinies. The real problem is that there needs to be some major nerfing to get things truly in balance, and it seems that the devs are now scared to go down that road, so this may be the best option available. I don't now. We'll have to just see how it plays out.

[Mryal]

Allright so melee and ranged power.Thats cool.
But the way youre doing it is lazy, why are only paladins getting their enhancements benefit from it, that makes no sense.Delay it until all classes are reviewed to have their enhancements benefit from melee/ranged power.
Another thing i fail to understand : Melee power is beign added per character level and Ranged Power isnt.I'm all for removing ranged bonuses from melee EDs specialy Fury of the Wild, the fact that they benefit ranged never made any sense, specialy with bows beign the only weapon type that benefits from Fury more than once per attack.


BTW i play as swashbuckler since the update came and also on lamania.If you wanna remove shield maestry feats from us.I wll nerd rage and make walls of text showing how wrong you are !!!! Just kidding :P Go ahead and do so, they are a combat style feat afterall, and you should only be able to take one of those.Except if you take ranger lvls right.Thats gonna be fixed for next update right?

[Mryal]

3) It's not clear to me if there'll be changes to fury, crusader and others to adjust to this changes above... if not i think crusader will be the no brainer... in my opinion crusader is very close to Ld in overall power right now.

Not just very close but on certain cases, better.But then again, after the changes blitz will no longer require cleave feats, and will no longer require kills to charge (wonder what will it require to charge thought) , wich means blitz will probably still be the no brainer.

But even after this change other EDs seem to be far behind still.This is not the miracle that will make someone use primal avatar, it has to be totaly redone.This isnt gonna make any melee use Fury either, unless it gives substantial THF bonuses wich it should give.This is gonna make unarmed monks go LD for blitz.In the end people will use LD even more, specialy if they allow Ranged damage to still be affected by blitz.

LD is the general weapon user ED, other EDs are niche specific, fury THF, crusader battle caster/at least some use for spellpower in your melee (swashbuckler!), grandmaster unarmed.Primal avatar is...something.Thing is if the 'niche' EDs dont give as much as a general melee ED (LD), then where do you think people will go?

[Dagolar]

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

Edit: Comment removed due to subsequent clarification.

[Zoda]

I really love the melee power change, I think it gives huge space for creative developement. On the other hand I strongly disagree with that melee power should be just given based on epic level (I'm okay with destinis givng it), there is plenty of other space in game where you could put it. I think this is just a lazy no brainer approach.

I think the implementation of a str based melee power (and a dex based ranged power) skill similar to spellcraft would be better. A well min/maxed character would probably very well end up with similar levels of melee power to what they'd get with your current idea of epic levels giving it, but it'd make it relevant already at heroic levels and would actually require players to do something instead of just getting it without an effort.

Another place where you could put them is racial trees' racial weapon bonuses. I mean one damage per tier bonus on an axe for a dwarf or on bow for an elf is really abysmall when you compare it to the 8-10k crit numbers that we already easily can get in end game.

Another argument of giving it for free on epic levels is that it'd only benefit melees and not casters/ranged.

[Severlin]

I really love the melee power change, I think it gives huge space for creative developement. On the other hand I strongly disagree with that melee power should be just given based on epic level (I'm okay with destinis givng it), there is plenty of other space in game where you could put it. I think this is just a lazy no brainer approach.

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

I think the implementation of a str based melee power (and a dex based ranged power) skill similar to spellcraft would be better. A well min/maxed character would probably very well end up with similar levels of melee power to what they'd get with your current idea of epic levels giving it, but it'd make it relevant already at heroic levels and would actually require players to do something instead of just getting it without an effort.

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

[Wizza]

I really love the melee power change, I think it gives huge space for creative developement. On the other hand I strongly disagree with that melee power should be just given based on epic level (I'm okay with destinis givng it), there is plenty of other space in game where you could put it. I think this is just a lazy no brainer approach.

I think the implementation of a str based melee power (and a dex based ranged power) skill similar to spellcraft would be better. A well min/maxed character would probably very well end up with similar levels of melee power to what they'd get with your current idea of epic levels giving it, but it'd make it relevant already at heroic levels and would actually require players to do something instead of just getting it without an effort.

Another place where you could put them is racial trees' racial weapon bonuses. I mean one damage per tier bonus on an axe for a dwarf or on bow for an elf is really abysmall when you compare it to the 8-10k crit numbers that we already easily can get in end game.

Another argument of giving it for free on epic levels is that it'd only benefit melees and not casters/ranged.

Agreed.

Putting 90 Melee Power in Epic levels doesn't make any sense. If you want to make Epic levels RELEVANT, you should make them relevant FOR EVERY CLASS AND NOT JUST MELEES. I'm fine with Melee power being in Epic Destinies, that closes the gap a bit with blitzers. You could make the bonus 100 Melee Power in EDs and scrap the whole Melee Power for Epic levels.

And what Zoda suggests is cool too. You could put Melee Power in Racial Enhancements like Half-Orcs, looks like the right time to give them a deserved buff.

If you want to buff destinies, then BUFF THE EPIC DESTINIES and don't just give a flat 90 MP to every melee just for being capped.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

Does this mean will see a little more love for Tempest in the near future? Its a pretty lackluster tree, especially with what we're now seeing with Bards and Paladins.

[Wizza]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

Sev~

You are making them relevant only to certain classes and not TO EVERYONE, which should be the case. THIS is what is wrong. Move that Melee Power somewhere else (hint: Epic destinies having a bigger MP bonus, 100 instead of 60 for instance).

[Grailhawk]

Can we please get clarification on how melee power interacts with weapon effects and sneak attack damage.

if a character does avg 100 base damage 100 sneak attack and 10.5 fire damage from a weapon effect with 100 MP does he now do

200 base 100 sneak attack and 10.5 fire
200 base 200 sneak attack and 10.5 fire
200 base 100 sneak attack and 21 fire
200 base 200 sneak attack and 21 fire

[Mryal]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

Agreed, its a nice touch for making lvls relevant but like others mentioned it only affects melee.It should give Ranged power too and at least some caster buff.Even if its just +5 spellpower per lv.

I disagree with moving the bonuses to EDs or to anywere else thought, the bonuses are a way to scale your character with epic lvls not just with ED levels.

Can we please get clarification on how melee power interacts with weapon effects and sneak attack damage.

if a character does avg 100 base damage 100 sneak attack and 10.5 fire damage from a weapon effect with 100 MP does he now do

200 base 100 sneak attack and 10.5 fire
200 base 200 sneak attack and 10.5 fire
200 base 100 sneak attack and 21 fire
200 base 200 sneak attack and 21 fire

Weapon effects doesnt seems to be affected by melee power wich is ok.But sneak attack...that was the first thing i noticed.Took a while for someone to mention it! I cant even begin to imagine wich possible interaction of melee power + sneak attack would be 'balanced', i'll leave that one for Sev.Good luck!

[Zoda]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

At the moment I'm playing a CON based dwarf melee, and I don't feel like I'm far behind STR based. The only reason STR/DEX based are behind is Divine Might (and I think they are just not as well developed, because it's not the easy way to go to). DEX gets its trade off in reflex save, CON in hp and fort save.
A dex/con build could still get the the skill maxed to 23, still would get the +8 epic levels bonus on it, the +15/+20 item, the +6 exceptional, and even if you are going full on DEX you still need some STR to get power attack, and you can equip STR items just the same.

Yes the skill would be lower on those builds, but I doubt that the difference would be as high as you think.

Just take a look at the example of spellcraft on Wizard and spellcraft on Sorc: is it making a huge difference? - no not at all.

Not to mention that if you want to you can just make the loss of melee power skill compensated in assassin/tempest trees. (if your dex is higher than you str you get +x melee power, shouldn't be too hard to code)

[Qhualor]

Actually we've gotten a lot of player feedback that the leveling from 20-28 is lackluster at best. Many players feel that the levels are meaningless, and advancement in the EDs is all that matters. We'd like to see the actual levels have more meaning.

Sev~

Are you confusing the lackluster from 20-28 with being in an off destiny? That I can certainly agree with. If you are talking about certain melee abilities not scaling properly than that I can agree with.

[Mryal]

I think the implementation of a str based melee power (and a dex based ranged power) skill similar to spellcraft would be better. A well min/maxed character would probably very well end up with similar levels of melee power to what they'd get with your current idea of epic levels giving it, but it'd make it relevant already at heroic levels and would actually require players to do something instead of just getting it without an effort.

Thats a terrible idea lol.Skills require investment on skill points wich melee classes arent really 'balanced' for,Fighter only gets 2 points per lv, bards alredy have a ton of other skills to spend on, while classes like Barb and Ranger might do ok.No, no skill, spellcraft was alredy a pain to fit on, specialy on bards.

[Zoda]

Does this mean will see a little more love for Tempest in the near future? Its a pretty lackluster tree, especially with what we're now seeing with Bards and Paladins.

I think tempest is a great tree. TWF is what is lackluster in general. I really don't understand why they give MP with shield and thf feats but twf, which is in the most dire need of a buff.

[Zoda]

Thats a terrible idea lol.Skills require investment on skill points wich melee classes arent really 'balanced' for,Fighter only gets 2 points per lv, bards alredy have a ton of other skills to spend on, while classes like Barb and Ranger might do ok.No, no skill, spellcraft was alredy a pain to fit on, specialy on bards.

Then you put your 2 starting stats into int and max it with a smile on your face, you just got 23% melee power for an investment of 2 points into INT.

[Grailhawk]

Weapon effects doesnt seems to be affected by melee power wich is ok.But sneak attack...that was the first thing i noticed.Took a while for someone to mention it! I cant even begin to imagine wich possible interaction of melee power + sneak attack would be 'balanced', i'll leave that one for Sev.Good luck!

If MP does not effect weapon procs and sneak attack damage its just going to remove some build options from the game because the only number that will ever matter is the first one. Right now we are very close to that anyways if MP only scales the base damage there will no longer be a point in even looking at alternative build styles. This may also kill off TWF other then Unarmed do to how TWF does not benefit from stat damage as much as other builds do we will see.

[Oxarhamar]

Ranged builds will be looked into at some future date, but not for the Armor Up update.

Sev~

Yeah also a little worried about this change for melee happening but, the ranged change coming in some future update.

Does this mean ranged will become subpar again until the changes come because, changing the EDs and waiting for ranged will leave ranged lost.



Also Artificer's need thier own ED one similar to Divine Crudsaider that is both ranged/melee and caster focused but, with the ability to either focus pure ranged, pure caster, or a mix of both.



While we are talking ranged All crossbows need a serious fix.

"shot" type attacks can be lost in the reload cycle of the crossbow and go on cool down without the attack being performed.

The is a work around to avoid this but, it's very immersion breaking and is toughest in heavy combat when a shot attack like pin might save your skin. The work around is to be sure you have a bolt/bolts loaded which outside oh heavy combat is easier to judge but since an unloaded crossbow and a loaded crossbow look the same you can't tell if your just standing at rest either without trying a test shot first.



Here is a list of "shot" type attacks that are broken for crossbow users (the was reported on Lamania when ED's were first introduced)

Shot type attacks being lost into the reload cycle of Crossbows. (light/heavy/great/light repeater/heavy repeater)

Enhancements:
Artificer Battle Engineer
Wracking Shot: Ranged Attack: On Damage: Deals 1d6/3d6/5d6 extra damage to constructs and living constructs, and applies Wracked: This construct or living construct fortification is reduced by 10% and loses its inherent immunity to sneak attack. This effect stacks up to five times.

Elven/Ranger
Arcane Archer
True strike: Ranged Archery Attack: Perform a ranged attack with +20 to-hit. Rank 2/3: You receive a +2/+4 Insight bonus to hit for 6/12 seconds. Activation cost: 2 spell points. Cool down: 3 seconds.
Dispelling Shot: Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage and dispels 1/2/3 beneficial effects from your target. (Activation Cost: 5 SP. Cool down: 3 seconds)
Inferno Shot: Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +0/+1/+2[W] damage. On Hit: Target gain 1 stack of Inferno (target takes 1d6 fire damage every 2 second for 6 seconds. This effect can stack 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) (Activation cost: 6 SP. Cool down 3 seconds)
Shattermantle Shot: Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +1/+2/+3[W] damage. On hit: Target gains 1/2/3 stack of Reduced Spell Resistance (-1 Spell Resistance. This effect can stack 100 times) on Vorpal Hit: Shattermantle (-100 spell Resistance for 10 seconds. Will DC 10/14/18 + Half Ranger Level + Wisdom Modifier negates.) (Activation Cost: 4 SP. Cool down: 3 seconds)
Arrow of Slaying: Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +250 damage. (This damage can be multiplied by critical hits.) (Cost: 20 spell points. Cool down: 20 seconds.)

Fighter Kensei
Shattering Shot: Focus Ranged Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. On Damage: Target loses 15% fortification for 10 seconds (Fort DC 10 + Half Fighter Level + Wisdom Modifier Negates).
A Good Death (Ranged): Focus Ranged Attack: Perform a ranged attack with +1 Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage.
Deadly Shot: Focus Ranged Attack: Expend a use of Action Boost: Attack to perform a ranged attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On Vorpal: 500 damage.

Ranger Deepwood Stalker
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cool down 6 seconds)
Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +10 to hit and +1 Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: If you are in the Archer's Focus stance and Manyshot is not active, gain three stacks of Archer's Focus. (Cooldown: 10 seconds)
Merciful Shot: Ranged attack: Deals +3[W] damage. On Sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage.
Leg Shot: Ranged Attack: On Damage: Slow your enemy's movement by 50% for 10 seconds. (Cool down: 10 seconds)
Head Shot: Ranged Attack: Perform a ranged attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On vorpal: 500 damage. (Cool down: 60 seconds)

Rogue Mechanic
Wracking Shot: Ranged Attack: On Damage: Deals 1d6/3d6/5d6 extra damage to constructs and living constructs, and applies Wracked: This construct or living construct fortification is reduced by 10% and loses its inherent immunity to sneak attack. This effect stacks up to five times.
Leg Shot: Ranged Attack: On Damage: Slow your enemy's movement by 50% for 10 seconds (Cool down: 10 seconds)

Epic Destinies:
Shadowdancer
Shrouding Strike/Shot: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 15 seconds) Melee or Ranged Attack: Perform an attack with +[1/2/3][W] damage. On hit: Mark target. It if dies within the next [6/8/10] seconds, gain a Shadow Charge. You can retain a maximum of [2/4/6] Shadow Charges.
Executioner's Strike/Shot: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 30 seconds) Melee or ranged attack. Perform an attack with +[1/2/3][W] damage, +1 critical threat range and +1 critical damage multiplier. On hit: You have a 35% chance to kill a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 7 + Character level + DEX modifier + Number of Shadow Charges). Even on successful save target takes an additional [50/75/100] damage from this attack.

Shiradi Champion
Pin: Ranged or Thrown Attack: (Cooldown [20/15] seconds) enemy takes [+2/+3][w] damage. If enemy is not moving, enemy is pinned in place for [9/18] seconds. Enemy is slowed if moving. (No saving throw observed for either effect)
Otto's Whistler: Ranged or Thrown Attack: (Cooldown [20/15] seconds) Deal [+2/+3][w] damage. If enemy is moving, enemy starts dancing for [9/18] seconds. (No saving throw observed)
>>



To expand on this Crossbows have 2 sequences of attack Load/Reload and Fire.
During a sequence of attacks any of these Shot type attacks must be used when the Crossbow is loaded or the attack will go on cool down and nothing will happen.

My suggestion is simply for the attack not to go on cool down if no "shot" is fired

[Bridge_Dweller]

I think tempest is a great tree.

What's great about it?

[Bridge_Dweller]

If MP does not effect weapon procs and sneak attack damage its just going to remove some build options from the game because the only number that will ever matter is the first one. Right now we are very close to that anyways if MP only scales the base damage there will no longer be a point in even looking at alternative build styles. This may also kill off TWF other then Unarmed do to how TWF does not benefit from stat damage as much as other builds do we will see.

Blitz affects sneak attack, blitz doesn't affect procs.

With that as the precedent, MP should affect Sneak Attack as well. I don't believe it should affect procs.