DDO questing: Solo'ing vs Grouping

[Levonestral]

One thing I've always wanted since they introduced scaling was to let us choose the scaling in the same window where we choose the difficulty. We have those nice new windows now, would be handy if they added in a simple drop-down saying "Scale party to X players" and then let us choose. The default of course would be full scaling as it is now. Gives people more options, not less.

[Enoach]

Play style is the only place Solo vs Group play has its differences between the incentive to group or run it alone.

First the 10% survival bonus - commonly referred to as the Death Penalty
This was initially intended to make it an incentive to work together in a group and to use strategies that would increase the likelihood of survival. The problem is that because the mentality is that death means less XP, which means less XP per Minute.

This should be a grouping incentive, but has turned into an excuse for people to be jerks to other players. This is an attitude that only the players that take this attitude can change.

Next the scaling, when DDO first started they were using the same group make-up of dungeons that the classic pen and paper worked off - 4 players. The idea is that less then 4 players meant an increase in challenge. Adding player 5 & 6 made the quest just that much easier. What scaling was intended to do was to use the Dungeon Masters Guide to adjust the dungeon to make it so that a person/persons with groups smaller than 4 would balance out and still have the same challenge level as a 4 person team. The problem is that scaling didn't adjust the number in the encounter, it adjusted the CR of the current creatures, giving them more HP as well as higher everything else. But that is not what was needed. What should have occurred is the size of the encounter.

The next problem was that the game mentality has shifted from running quests for the fun and loot and challenge to a shift of XP/MIN. The goal now being how fast can a person go from level 1 to 20 (28) and back again. This is what separated the Long Time players from the just started. Those that just started don't know everything about every quest, some longer time players have concluded certain aspects of quests that "don't need to be done to complete" are not important to meet their needs, however they have tainted newer players with this mentality to the point that they don't really know quests or even have a chance to know those quests, let alone what certain aspects of the quests have value or how to weigh that value.

To fix this in my opinion 3 aspects have to change.

1) Scaling has to change from a simple CR (HP/Damage) increase to an encounter size/make-up
2) Increase the reason to run a quest beyond XP/MIN
3) Player focus changed from XP/MIN back to entertainment

TR options need to remain to allow people who enjoy the 1 to 20 game more than what remains after 20.

But the focus needs to be back on a reason to group. The initial concept of "Social" reason is lost on certain people that play.

[myliftkk_v2]

I am not sure why noone replies to that part. I will type it in bold. Running quests SOLO is easier and faster then in group. This is horrible game design.

Because it's not even close to universally true... and when it is true, it's true for specific builds and playstyles. So yes, if you select a particular build, play a particular way, and know the content inside and out, it can be easier and faster to solo. If you do not make those specific choices, it is not, and will not be.

How about you acknowledge you made those choices and know the content first?

You want to encourage grouping, it's simple. Make the mobs/mob buffs/mob spells/shrine/quest requirements/maps randomized. Then your invis-a-zerging* days will be over and you'll actually have to think about what could be on the other side of a door rather than know what's coming 3 doors later. At the point that happens, you'll have to leave your plans at the quest entrance and learn to adventure again.

Randomisation is the answer. Everything else is a bandaid over a gaping wound.

*I say that as someone who's done plenty invis-a-zerging myself.

ETA: I want to add that I've been playing RPG electronic games since they first were created, and the whole "unknown" aspect to a dungeon crawl in the old days was that you never knew when you would take a step in a dungeon (when the first 3d dungeons became popular) and a random encounter would pop up and you'd have to fight. It's true, you always had the "known" encounters that facilitated the progression of the game, but in addition you always had the chance that everywhere you walked, you'd suddenly end up in a combat encounter. You could even be surprised with combat when you tried to rest. The primary flaw in DDO is the only encounters are "known" encounters, and once you know them, where they are, what they consist of, the game is trivial in terms of avoiding or mitigating them. It's the achillies heel of the DDO hand-crafted dungeon. You want people to "team up", throw the "unknown" at them at greater quantities than the 0% unknown they get now.

[schelsullivan]

You want to encourage grouping, it's simple. Make the mobs/mob buffs/mob spells/shrine/quest requirements/maps randomized. Then your invis-a-zerging* days will be over and you'll actually have to think about what could be on the other side of a door rather than know what's coming 3 doors later.

Randomized, that would liven things up! Love the idea! +1

[PermaBanned]

I am not talking about different types of grp.

Different types of grp is relevant to parts of your OP.

Just read points 1) to 7) - it is not about different groups, it is about plenty of time waiting and spent not on actually doing quest or on going much slower then you can.

Waiting for more time to actually start quest then it takes time to complete quest is not fun. I am not sure there is anyone who thinks waiting for all to finally be ready and gather is fun.

When advertising for a chain, or series like "House J level 11s," all the waiting to fill & gather usually (ime) only happens during the formation of the group. After that you're all on the same buff timer, traveling along from quest to quest together, rebuffing as needed together etc. My approach is to start the longest quest in the series as "IP" and let the group form as the quest is getting run. When I'm looking for time efficiency, I make it clear and the group splits to accomplish multiple goals simultaneously, like gathering crests in Enemy Within or covering different sides of the hall in Dreams of Insanity. As for "going much slower than you can" yes that is a playstyle thing, unless your talking about a group mix of Monkcher w/sprint boost vs Stalwart Defender run speeds.

MOST quests on heroics are faster and _easier_ to run through solo.

Again, running through a quest, invising past mobs that aren't a required kill to advance the quest is a playstyle thing. And I still stand by opinion that two or more people invising their way to multiple required objectives simultaneously is faster than one person doing them one at a time; not sure how you can sensibly dispute that.

I am not sure why noone replies to that part. I will type it in bold. Running quests SOLO is easier and faster then in group. This is horrible game design.

It has been replied to, and yes it is a playstyle dependent position. While invisozerging linear/single objective quests may be faster & easier solo, doing it in multiple objective quests is faster with help. Completing all optionals as well as Ransack, Ingenious etc is always* faster in a group. Redwillows Ruins a great example for both of those: multiple people can invis to different areas and get back to the portal faster than a solo player can, and multiple people can clear the map of all mobs and optionals faster than a solo player.

*Unless you get stuck with some squelch-worthy troll who lives to ruin other people's play experiences, or somebody so new they need step by step guidence - both of which have been quite rare in my experience.

[Nestroy]

(...)First the 10% survival bonus - commonly referred to as the Death Penalty
This was initially intended to make it an incentive to work together in a group and to use strategies that would increase the likelihood of survival. The problem is that because the mentality is that death means less XP, which means less XP per Minute.

This should be a grouping incentive, but has turned into an excuse for people to be jerks to other players. This is an attitude that only the players that take this attitude can change.(...)

I will not comment on the dungeon scaling. Nuff said in many another threads. Regarding the attested attitude problem - do away with the 10% XP bonus when soloing a quest and the problem is solved. Otherwise, it does exactly what it does: It destroys group play. Running up to completionist or running up the many past lifes needed to play an viable EE toon that has at least some survivability (thanks to the powercreeping in quest design instead of making the quests and the mobs therein more intelligent) needs any XP one can get as fast as one can get them. There is not much time for pug grouping if I want to grind out 45.600.000 XP on heroic alone.

Now, with systems actually encouraging grouping (by bringing in more XP than solo zerging - more XP or at least the same XP / min), there will be more pugs. Simple as that. All else, especially telling us that "the players attitude is wrong", will not help.

[PermaBanned]

I will not comment on the dungeon scaling. Nuff said in many another threads. Regarding the attested attitude problem - do away with the 10% XP bonus when soloing a quest and the problem is solved. Otherwise, it does exactly what it does: It destroys group play. Running up to completionist or running up the many past lifes needed to play an viable EE toon that has at least some survivability (thanks to the powercreeping in quest design instead of making the quests and the mobs therein more intelligent) needs any XP one can get as fast as one can get them. There is not much time for pug grouping if I want to grind out 45.600.000 XP on heroic alone.

Now, with systems actually encouraging grouping (by bringing in more XP than solo zerging - more XP or at least the same XP / min), there will be more pugs. Simple as that. All else, especially telling us that "the players attitude is wrong", will not help.

Certainly entitled to your opinion, however I completely disagree.

• Threat of losing that 10% (of the base) bonus destroys the incentive to group for some people, but certainly not everybody.

• There are plenty of first life Epic Elite viable toons/players out there. Multiple PLs are only required for two things: some specific builds, and people who need/want as much power as possible - I'm not saying either of those are bad or wrong, just that neither is a requirement to be viable in any content.

• It's been pointed out many times in many threads that making grouping more lucrative/efficient than soloing is not the same as encouraging/improving pugging. If grouping is incentivized over soloing, people who only group with guild/channel/friends won't suddenly start pugging. People who multibox still will, not start pugging. People who don't play well with others still won't. So while making group play more beneficial than soloing might help improve the pug scene, I doubt it would have a major impact.

[AzB]

You want to encourage grouping, it's simple. Make the mobs/mob buffs/mob spells/shrine/quest requirements/maps randomized. Then your invis-a-zerging* days will be over and you'll actually have to think about what could be on the other side of a door rather than know what's coming 3 doors later. At the point that happens, you'll have to leave your plans at the quest entrance and learn to adventure again.

This is the easy button solution. I mean, I know it would take a lot of coding, but it would require less effort than recreating chains, reprogramming all the vets behaviour patterns, (although I'm sure some would rage quit because it wasn't a zerg fest anymore) or starting over with a new game.

It would even be easy enough to randomize bosses, which while not doable in every case, would really require folks to slow the face roll. When it's gotten to the point where you already have your finger on the button for the spell to take down mobs around a corner that haven't even spawned yet, it's gotten too easy.

[myliftkk_v2]

This is the easy button solution. I mean, I know it would take a lot of coding, but it would require less effort than recreating chains, reprogramming all the vets behaviour patterns, (although I'm sure some would rage quit because it wasn't a zerg fest anymore) or starting over with a new game.

It would even be easy enough to randomize bosses, which while not doable in every case, would really require folks to slow the face roll. When it's gotten to the point where you already have your finger on the button for the spell to take down mobs around a corner that haven't even spawned yet, it's gotten too easy.

It's kinda of like hitting someone in the face with a wet mackerel.



The solution has been there all along. The other solutions are all like trying to bake a perfect souffle when the oven only has one temperatue...

[Kir1]

It has been replied to, and yes it is a playstyle dependent position. While invisozerging linear/single objective quests may be faster & easier solo, doing it in multiple objective quests is faster with help. Completing all optionals as well as Ransack, Ingenious etc is always* faster in a group. Redwillows Ruins a great example for both of those: multiple people can invis to different areas and get back to the portal faster than a solo player can, and multiple people can clear the map of all mobs and optionals faster than a solo player.

You play in ideal DDO, where playing with pick up groups dont slow you down at all, you never patiently wait at quest ending because some guy will be in quest any minute (it will actually take him 10, etc), all who join you are quicky spreading in different directions knowing what to do and you dont have to retrieve another soulstone (when you warned them about traps), of cause people know how to find quest entrance in wilderness area, and trap damage which is much less on Solo run - is no matter for you if you play non-evasion character, et cetera. No pikers, no afkers (sorry phone brb, 10 minutes later he is back "you must gather your party to continue quest" ok).

In truth, you waste much less time by soloing - you have much easier quests when solo (traps do less dmg, monsters go down much faster, you can avoid un-needed fights) and you not waiting for anyone - at same time having much easier time in quests.

[Daine]

give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

Nope. Not signed.

It's a party, not 6 people in a dungeon solo'ing.

It leads to not worrying if the newb with the gimp build dies, thus being newb unfriendly.

If you've ever led a group of people in anything, their failure is your failure.

If you've ever participated in any event with close friends and one fails in something, it probably could have been avoided because you didn't help enough. Their failure is your failure.

In DDO if someone dies, it usually could have been prevented if the party acted like a group rather than 6 individuals all out for themselves. Seeing as the purpose of a party is to group together for mutual benefit, if someone dies the mutual benefit is lost and you really haven't learned as much from your experiences as you should have, -10% for everyone, you may be the perfect solo'er but you are not the perfect party member!

[PermaBanned]

You play in ideal DDO, where playing with pick up groups dont slow you down at all, • I just don't play the "XP/Min is how to win" DDO you never patiently wait at quest ending because some guy will be in quest any minute (it will actually take him 10, etc), • You're right! If I'm at the end of a quest, I tell the late comer so and let them know they're welcome to come for the next one. all who join you are quicky spreading in different directions knowing what to do • If I'm running a "divide and conquer" group/quest, I ask the joiner if they're able (usually by asking pointed questions about what I expect their part to be) and if they can't contribute how I want, I suggest they find a different group. and you dont have to retrieve another soulstone (when you warned them about traps), • If it's a quick & easy retrieval I do, if not I tell 'em to release (after completion) and meet up at the next quest. of cause people know how to find quest entrance in wilderness area, • If I'm not IP yet, I ask if they need a guid and help them if they do. If I am IP, I ask if they know the way and if the answer is no, suggest they move on to different group or wait for next quest and show the way to that one and any after. and trap damage which is much less on Solo run - is no matter for you if you play non-evasion character, et cetera. • If I can't disable or bypass a trap, I pug up a trapper - problem solved. No pikers, no afkers (sorry phone brb, 10 minutes later he is back "you must gather your party to continue quest" ok). • Carp happens. I have kids, afk/kid agro happens for me, so I'm understanding when afk/(reason) happens for others. It's unfortunate, but rarely been an actual problem. When people are chronic afk/pikers, they get the /boot & problem solved. As for "you must gather to continue" - there's how many of those? Yeah, not a common issue at all.

In truth, you waste much less time by soloing - you have much easier quests when solo (traps do less dmg, monsters go down much faster, you can avoid un-needed fights) and you not waiting for anyone - at same time having much easier time in quests.

In truth, I rarely play for efficiency beyond using divide & conquer methods - and I don't always do that either, depends on my mood and group capabilities. DDO is how I waste time, it's a game and I treat it as such. I don't usually avoid unneeded fights, and don't mind/sometimes even enjoy helping new players, wether they're new to the game or just to the quest. While I'm admittedly not very tolerant of idiots, trolls or griefers (whom I define as anyone that intentionally ruins/impedes my fun), I'm (IMO) reasonably patient with people who need to restock Potions, Scrolls, Tools or whatever - especially during a long running group; however those patients do have a limit and if a player exceeds them I let them know to catch up or move on.

This is why I said it's a playstyle thing. You and me have different expectations of how our game time should be spent. Groups are a hinderance for your way of playing, not for mine.

How is it bad game design that you want the fastest, easiest most efficient path to completion/power possible and don't have the patients to wait for people? For that matter, why are you playing an MMO when you seem to view multiple players as multiple problems?

[Deadlock]

Trolling?

I am not sure if completionist have no clue that you cant teleport inside quests when joining public qroups...

Not trolling, just pointing out the feature for automatic teleportation that was part of the design brief for the Public LFM option. Maybe you've not been around long enough to know how it was supposed to work?

If it helps you, I can let you see the error message you get when you hit a public LFM.

(Error): Automatic teleportation via the LFM panel is disabled temporarily.

I'm sure when you've been around longer, you'll have a better idea of fix timescales for things that have been temporarily disabled.

[maddmatt70]

I agree OP with some of the specifics and your overall point. It is not just heroics though it is the whole game and the way it is played. Teamwork and grouping has taken a big hit over the last few years. Let's see some new incentives for both in DDO.

[Feithlin]

give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

How about cumulative -10% for each death for those who die, so some ppl would start looking to their health instead of hoping for others to do?

[Jasparion]

A party is going to often bring in everything required to complete the mechanics of a quest (trapping, healing, tanks) because that's what classes are meant to do. If dungeon scaling didn't exist, the quest would be too easy on a party. Scaling offsets this a bit.

In contast, scaling goes down on a solo player to allow more chance for survival.

Given its an MMO, shouldnt the dungeon scaling be removed so that it is always at the 6 player level? Like the way Raids work?

[Enoach]

Given its an MMO, shouldnt the dungeon scaling be removed so that it is always at the 6 player level? Like the way Raids work?

we had this until the "I can't solo this" crowd was able to convince the Turbine Staff that scaling to allow the solo scene was good for the game.

I would have preferred a revamp of the "SOLO" option giving the quests Solo/Casual/Normal/Hard/Elite.

[Erdrique]

I haven't been able to read each one of the posts in this thread, but the few I have glanced at and read all make good points. I have been playing DDO almost since it was released back in 2006 and I have solo'ed quests from then to now. However, the basic premise of DDO is for group play. Unfortunately, especially at the heroic levels, there just isn't a huge incentive for group play besides for the plain fact of meeting other people or to hang out with friends or guildies. In this case that is perfectly fine, however for a large amount of the playerbase this simply leads to soloing instead of grouping. And in many cases this leads people to think that population of the servers are too small, when in fact it is just because people to find an incentive to group.

It would be nice to see group play receive an incentive. I like the ability for players to solo quests and the scaling doesn't bother me besides in a few quests where it seems to lead to Dungeon Alerts way to quickly. I know that a few of my friends have complained that the some of the Evenigstar Challenges have a huge scaling factor where they find it easier to complete them separately as opposed in a group. I don't think this should be case, so it is evident that some tweaking should be done.

In the end, I do agree that their should be more incentive to group.

[PermaBanned]

In the end, I do agree that their should be more incentive to group.

Just checking: when you say "incentive to group" do you really mean group, or actually mean pug? What would be an incentive for you?

[Kir1]

If you've ever participated in any event with close friends and one fails in something, it probably could have been avoided because you didn't help enough. Their failure is your failure.

In DDO if someone dies, it usually could have been prevented if the party acted like a group rather than 6 individuals all out for themselves.

Not sure if you are serious.

If someone intends to die in quest, they will die no matter what you do. I usually "know" who will die once they join group. I know when i see for example drow wizard with 90 hp in The Enemy Within who popped hireling that first hireling will go down shortly and then he will.


-10% a penalty is excepted to get in PUG (and one shouldnt join PUG at all if getting -10% from quest is important for him). I dont care about -10% thats why i PUG, but i can see why some vets avoid PUGs because of it.

This is why I said it's a playstyle thing. You and me have different expectations of how our game time should be spent. Groups are a hinderance for your way of playing, not for mine.

How is it bad game design that you want the fastest, easiest most efficient path to completion/power possible and don't have the patients to wait for people? For that matter, why are you playing an MMO when you seem to view multiple players as multiple problems?

Once again, critical miss, sir.
But its ok, PUGing make me patient enough to explain again and again. Its not about "different expectations". It is about _waiting_ more time (see points 1-7 in first post) then actually doing quest itself. I have some time to play game, but i dont want to spend a lot time waiting and waiting and waiting.

How is it bad game design that you want the fastest, easiest most efficient path to completion/power possible and don't have the patients to wait for people?

As you've said it yourself: bad design is when fastest, easiest and most efficient path for many (_many_, MANY, "many" means "not all but majority" <- pay attention here please) quests is just to solo them.