DDO questing: Solo'ing vs Grouping

[Chai]

Sweety where you here back in 06? Because I was. Want to know what DDO was like back then? Most people spent their hours online each day either trying to do things alone, or wait endlessly for a healer for their groups because those who wanted to group wanted a perfect team. And guess what people wanting to, let alone being willing to suffer through the role of pure healer where incredibly rare. While mana sponge barbs where incredibly common and commonly the first and weakest link in a party to snap and place the burden on the rest.

I was here then , and thats not how I remember it. The BYOH mentality was strong even then, but the LFMs said "bring pots". PUGing clerics were more common then than they are now. They did not have this aversion to healing others they do now.

The vast majority of people who came to and chose to stick with the game for any length usually had the shared interest in the games active combat system, a system some here rightfully can lay blame at driving off a good number of actual PnP players who did not grow up mastering the art of the original super mario brothers on nintendo in the early 80s.

Yes, DDO has just as many folks with FPS game history as they do with D&D history.

I can recall many a day where Id sit trying to build a group and as always the last spot left open would be saved for a healer because most of the group would be barbarians demanding a healer to carry them through, and occasionally in some content demanding a trap monkey, and very very often seeing that same trap monkey be verbally abused and driven to quit the group after taking out the traps so that the spot could then be filled by another dps barby doll mana sponge. This was even worse in chains where the last part might be light to no traps, and a leader without saying a word of reason would kick the poor trappist on route to the last part to make room for a DPS dealing RL friend so they could get in on the end chests loot drops. This kind of behavior still was common in the last year on the rare occasions Id log on and pug.

I dont remember it this way. Back then we played normal first, then hard, then elite. There was no elite BB so no one was demanding to play elite right off the bat. No one needed a trap monkey, though it was better to have one on elite. All of the quests where people could simply jump through or time the trap nowdays which existed back then, people did so in those quests back then too. People had evasion in heavy armor back then, so just about anyone who paid any attention to saves could do it.

MMO do not need to cater to groupists, they need to cater to puggist, a very different kind of social gamer, one who enjoys CONSTANTLY meeting new people and exploring new things with them, or taking them under their wing for a time to pass on knowledge before moving on to another. Guildist are one of the great banes of DDO and MMOs in general as they breed xenophobic isolated cliques who are intolerant of new comers or changes to their idea of an ideal system.

MMOs need to cater to all styles of players. The ones who thought they could cater to one style and not cater to the others are the ones that died off a few years after opening their doors. DDO was actually BETTER at catering to all styles in the beginning than it is now.

[Belleya]

Sweety where you here back in 06? Because I was. Want to know what DDO was like back then? Most people spent their hours online each day either trying to do things alone, or wait endlessly for a healer for their groups because those who wanted to group wanted a perfect team. And guess what people wanting to, let alone being willing to suffer through the role of pure healer where incredibly rare. While mana sponge barbs where incredibly common and commonly the first and weakest link in a party to snap and place the burden on the rest.

The vast majority of people who came to and chose to stick with the game for any length usually had the shared interest in the games active combat system, a system some here rightfully can lay blame at driving off a good number of actual PnP players who did not grow up mastering the art of the original super mario brothers on nintendo in the early 80s.

I can recall many a day where Id sit trying to build a group and as always the last spot left open would be saved for a healer because most of the group would be barbarians demanding a healer to carry them through, and occasionally in some content demanding a trap monkey, and very very often seeing that same trap monkey be verbally abused and driven to quit the group after taking out the traps so that the spot could then be filled by another dps barby doll mana sponge. This was even worse in chains where the last part might be light to no traps, and a leader without saying a word of reason would kick the poor trappist on route to the last part to make room for a DPS dealing RL friend so they could get in on the end chests loot drops. This kind of behavior still was common in the last year on the rare occasions Id log on and pug.

MMO do not need to cater to groupists, they need to cater to puggist, a very different kind of social gamer, one who enjoys CONSTANTLY meeting new people and exploring new things with them, or taking them under their wing for a time to pass on knowledge before moving on to another. Guildist are one of the great banes of DDO and MMOs in general as they breed xenophobic isolated cliques who are intolerant of new comers or changes to their idea of an ideal system.

I love you!

[myliftkk_v2]

The vast majority of people who came to and chose to stick with the game for any length usually had the shared interest in the games active combat system, a system some here rightfully can lay blame at driving off a good number of actual PnP players who did not grow up mastering the art of the original super mario brothers on nintendo in the early 80s.

The original Mario has no bearing on whether you can handle active combat. If you were good at Doom and it's ilk, you'll be fine at DDO combat.

If you played Jumpman, you can do the DDO platforming.

[SilentTooLong]

The original Mario has no bearing on whether you can handle active combat. If you were good at Doom and it's ilk, you'll be fine at DDO combat.

If you played Jumpman, you can do the DDO platforming.

LOL DDO is not that FPS, we can tab target fire and forget a majority of the time here. What it is is twitch orientated, and if you dont think SMB single handedly honed that for most of us in the 80s your not a child of the 80s.

[myliftkk_v2]

LOL DDO is not that FPS, we can tab target fire and forget a majority of the time here. What it is is twitch orientated, and if you dont think SMB single handedly honed that for most of us in the 80s your not a child of the 80s.

You play much melee?

Really. Jumpman, Pitfall, or even Loderunner preceded SMB. Some of us did own/access PCs and Apple/Mac in the 80s.

None of that however, really taught strafing.

[sayan]

Teleporting to dungeons is a TERRIBLE idea. I am not surprised I've seen so many thumbs up though.

It is easier most of the time to solo quests with a few exceptions due to certain mechanics. This isn't a problem for me, as I have the most fun being efficient. If solo'ing is efficient, then I am having more fun doing that, that IS what I enjoy doing. Also, I have an XP pot ticking most of the time so I won't be assed to taking it slow and waiting for people, sorry. I actually got badmouthed the other day for taking one of my guildies through Inferno "too fast." Np, you won't be coming with me again.

There are several little tweaks that could occur to fix the "problem" people seem to have.
1. New level of difficulty for heroics similar to EE challenging. Significantly raise XP for this. This will promote grouping.
2. Make it so Elite does not scale. Group size to 4/5.
3. Leave the current scaling the same but also allow the XP to scale with group size, at a certain rate.

When I know I can do GH saga in recordblazingfast time on solo elite OR in "comatoseturtle speed" when I open LFM, it is clear which option I choose. When I do open LFM I pick quests that I know people will likely die on to traps and such so I can get a good laugh.

Again, as much as I Love my XP potions and getting to dungeons would be quicker, TELEPORTING TO DUNGEONS IS A FKN TERRIBLE IDEA. Pat yourself on the back now, then when it gets implemented I will watch you *****.

[Abcchef]

All I know is that I want a vibrant pug scene from level 1 to 28, whatever has to happen for that to happen, is cool with me.

[Funny_looking_mole]

All I know is that I want a vibrant pug scene from level 1 to 28, whatever has to happen for that to happen, is cool with me.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[Kir1]

When I know I can do GH saga in recordblazingfast time on solo elite OR in "comatoseturtle speed" when I open LFM, it is clear which option I choose.

It is also clear to me which often would be chosen.

For some unknown reasons, it is not clear to some posters in topic, though. Maybe they enjoy logging in and waiting/waiting/waiting (otherwise you get hateful pms "dude why didnt you wait before ending quest") and going super slow because someone will always insist they need take time.

And dungeon scaling turns difficulty to a joke on Elite when solo.

[goodspeed]

Grouping, with guild mates. Or a random bunch of friends and becoming so amazing you get a griffin whistle.

[Kir1]

Grouping, with guild mates. Or a random bunch of friends and becoming so amazing you get a griffin whistle.

I group most of time, only reason being soloing so easy and boring, in groups you get entertained by strangers, you can never predict what they do (sometimes, what crazy idea enters their mind).

Its randomization for quests we all ask for - it is here, playing with randoms which make quest go unpredictably all time (but not too much unpredictably, because i know for sure i can finish started quest all by myself if all other wipe).

Thats the reason you see vet carrying full group to completion of the quest (despite them not only increasing quest difficulty via scaling BUT sometimes actively make quest harder to complete by agroing more mobs or setting traps), he is doing it for entertainment reasons.

And sometimes you get in grp amazing player who by looks of it is carrying you to quest completion. You can learn some tricks to quest or observe new playstyle worthy of following.

[Abcchef]

Be the change you want to see in the world.

I put up lfm's, no one joins. I really feel like their needs to be some developer intervention to resuscitate pugging.

[PermaBanned]

It is also clear to me which often would be chosen.

For some unknown reasons, it is not clear to some posters in topic, though. Maybe they enjoy logging in and waiting/waiting/waiting (otherwise you get hateful pms "dude why didnt you wait before ending quest") and going super slow because someone will always insist they need take time.

And dungeon scaling turns difficulty to a joke on Elite when solo.

Actually, "some posters in topic" manage to log in, and post quest as IP to form groups without all the waiting/waiting/waiting (and I've honestly never received hateful PMs about completing - maybe because I tell them "almost done" so they don't waste their time running there?) nor do I go super slow because someone else wants to - I go my own pace, and others can play that speed or find a different group. For some, my pace is too fast; for others like you, my pace is too slow because I don't generally invis past "unneeded kills" - I like to kill things! It's all good and fine you like to play for efficiency above all else, but pretending that's the only way to do it possibly more the root of your grouping issues.

I addressed your "points 1-7" each individually. You can go on blaming game design, but it's pretty clear that game design isn't what drives most of your issues. As for the game being easier on all difficulties when you solo do to scaling, players asked for it and the Devs gave it too them. For remarkably different reasons, you and I both agree that's a bad thing. It doesn't change the fact that "bad game design" isn't responsible for you not wanting to wait for people, or your seeming inability run an IP group without getting hateful PMs.

[bartharok]

All I know is that I want a vibrant pug scene from level 1 to 28, whatever has to happen for that to happen, is cool with me.

A dangerous thing to wish for.

[AzB]

I put up lfm's, no one joins. I really feel like their needs to be some developer intervention to resuscitate pugging.

I agree. So many people seem to think that the solution is to post more pugs. When I log on and see 3 lfms in my range, and all three are 1 person waiting for more, what makes anyone think that my adding another 1 man lfm is going to help the pug scene?

The playerbase has shrunk drastically in the last year or so, and at the same time more content has been added that thins out the folks that are left even more.

[Hendrik]

I see your point but I don't think it is good for an MMORPG. An MMORPG, which is all about grouping, should encourage grouping and discourage soloing.

More so when the game is based on D&D where at it's core it is about the group dynamic.

Making DDO so overly solo friendly is THE biggest mistake ever made, IMO.

[Postumus]

The playerbase has shrunk drastically in the last year or so, and at the same time more content has been added that thins out the folks that are left even more.

25% is drastic now?

[Postumus]

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[Vint]

25% is drastic now?

I don’t pay attention to the numbers, but is this true? We really lost 25% of players over the past year? I may not be the biggest Turbine supporter out there but this is a little alarming.

If this is true hopefully this council will not be a bunch of yes men and we might see some positive change around here.

[TBot1234]

is this true? We really lost 25% of players over the past year?

I've seen other guesstimates at 10% and others much higher than 25%.

No one knows except for Turbine and its parent/affiliate corporations. And they are not telling.

I often wonder if Turbine came out and gave us some real data if it would rally people to come together, resolve some of the perennial issues that divide the community, and change people's behavior for the better....?