DDO questing: Solo'ing vs Grouping

[Kir1]

DDO actually punishes players for grouping. At least, at heroic levels solo is easier AND faster for many quests.

It feels wrong that solo is easier and faster and better exp.

For example, yesterday i did Splinterskull chain (http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_Splinterskull), judging by ship buff timer it took around 35-40 minutes. Most parts of chain were just required kills (if they were required) and invis-running. Note: i didnt try to go as fast as i could, i did at my pace without effort to speed up or something.

Now why would i open group for players for this chain? I get punished by game (from PoV of efficiency) for doing this. Firstly, i will have to wait before people join (and if you are only 1 person in grp, this will take longer) - option being me starting without waiting but then a lot players wouldnt join at all since most want full chain.

Even so, OK some players join:
1) i will have to wait them before they get to quest - usualy some running in needed to quest entrance thru tangleroot gorge area
2) some will take time to buff up and re-stock
3) when they join chances are they wont have invis and we will have to either deal with DA or to kill mobs, much slowing quest completion
4) chances that some die (-10%), i dont care for this but some do
5) mobs gets buffed up, it wouldnt be problem since i skip most of them anyway but since (see 3) now we will have to kill them - it will slower quest
6) you will probably have to explain some how to get to quest and when they get to you, after you waiting, suddenly they are f2p players and cant join
7) and possibly someone will DC's/afk/pike

From PoV "i dont care for exp, just want to have some fun" grouping is good idea, but for efficiency game outright punishes for grouping.


Solution: remove dungeon scaling, allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it, give bonus xp for bigger party size, give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

[Njohrd]

...

Solution: remove dungeon scaling,

SIGNED

allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it,

ULTRA SIGNED

give bonus xp for bigger party size,

meh... alts/multibox red alarm. NOT SIGNED

give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

TRIPLE SIGNED

[Lanhelin]

For example, yesterday i did Splinterskull chain (http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_Splinterskull), judging by ship buff timer it took around 35-40 minutes. Most parts of chain were just required kills (if they were required) and invis-running. Note: i didnt try to go as fast as i could, i did at my pace without effort to speed up or something.

"without effort to speed up" and "ship buffs, just required kills and invis-running" together sounds like a contradiction. Recently I did the Splinterskull chain too at Level 6 on Elite (no ship buffs) but had to wait for Level 7 to do the last quest (lvl 9 on Elite difficulty). I didn't do all the optionals too like onslaught or ransack breakables every time I reentered, but it took about two hours to complete the chain. In a group it would have been much faster. But with ship buffs, invis-running and at what level(?) I guess one already has everything a group could contribute.

[TeacherSyn]

DDO actually punishes players for grouping. At least, at heroic levels solo is easier AND faster for many quests.

It feels wrong that solo is easier and faster and better exp.

For example, yesterday i did Splinterskull chain (http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_Splinterskull), judging by ship buff timer it took around 35-40 minutes. Most parts of chain were just required kills (if they were required) and invis-running. Note: i didnt try to go as fast as i could, i did at my pace without effort to speed up or something.

Now why would i open group for players for this chain? I get punished by game (from PoV of efficiency) for doing this. Firstly, i will have to wait before people join (and if you are only 1 person in grp, this will take longer) - option being me starting without waiting but then a lot players wouldnt join at all since most want full chain.

Even so, OK some players join:
1) i will have to wait them before they get to quest - usualy some running in needed to quest entrance thru tangleroot gorge area
2) some will take time to buff up and re-stock
3) when they join chances are they wont have invis and we will have to either deal with DA or to kill mobs, much slowing quest completion
4) chances that some die (-10%), i dont care for this but some do
5) mobs gets buffed up, it wouldnt be problem since i skip most of them anyway but since (see 3) now we will have to kill them - it will slower quest
6) you will probably have to explain some how to get to quest and when they get to you, after you waiting, suddenly they are f2p players and cant join
7) and possibly someone will DC's/afk/pike

From PoV "i dont care for exp, just want to have some fun" grouping is good idea, but for efficiency game outright punishes for grouping.


Solution: remove dungeon scaling, allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it, give bonus xp for bigger party size, give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

I believe that the game should "punish" groups in quests. The answer is simple.

A party is going to often bring in everything required to complete the mechanics of a quest (trapping, healing, tanks) because that's what classes are meant to do. If dungeon scaling didn't exist, the quest would be too easy on a party. Scaling offsets this a bit.

In contast, scaling goes down on a solo player to allow more chance for survival.

Keep something in mind about your Splinterskull attempt. It's presumed you've done it before. That means you're not necessarily leaving yourself with any surprises as to what to expect and so can take advantage of game mechanics that purposely make things a little easier on smaller parties or solo play.

But when you add your own conditions as to how to complete a quest, you get a different level of difficulty. Compare your run to mine, using a character dedicated to strict solo play (no hirelings, no party) and as few kills as possible, using a lot of stealth. I got many Devious bonuses in Splinterskull that were not easy to obtain. I had only 4 kills on the Zulkash totem quest, and the totem counted as a kill. See more about that run here.

On your larger point, yep, you're running with the wrong people. Familarity breeds contempt, and in this case, your party was so familiar with the place that they just moved automatically. Not their fault, but people are going to do what they want. It's a game, not a classroom. That said, it's why I enjoy solo play because I can change the conditions of the test. Slaying is easy in DDO. Not slaying while still completing things is a different matter. I'd change the conditions of your challenges, and if in party, ask others if they're interested in trying.

[Ailaesaedol]

1) i will have to wait them before they get to quest - usualy some running in needed to quest entrance thru tangleroot gorge area

If memory serves, if one member of the group has already spoken to the hobgoblin at the quest entrance, you can leave the wilderness area to the tavern and teleport back to splinterskull quest giver by speaking to Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo (or whatever) in the tavern.

You might have to share it or something. Or maybe its wishful thinking on my part.

[Forzah]

I believe that the game should "punish" groups in quests. The answer is simple.

A party is going to often bring in everything required to complete the mechanics of a quest (trapping, healing, tanks) because that's what classes are meant to do. If dungeon scaling didn't exist, the quest would be too easy on a party. Scaling offsets this a bit.

In contast, scaling goes down on a solo player to allow more chance for survival.

I see your point but I don't think it is good for an MMORPG. An MMORPG, which is all about grouping, should encourage grouping and discourage soloing.

[cdbd3rd]

Playing solo means you can scratch where it itches, WHEN it itches.

[PermaBanned]

From my perspective, it's a playstyle thing. The game doesn't punish grouping, it punishes people who both pug and assume that everyone who joins will play the way they do and have comparable quest knowledge.

OP, you play for efficiency, and feel "punished" by pugging up people who enjoy the hack & slash and want to play through the whole of the quest killing, trapping & breaking stuff. Conversely, they would feel "punished" if you joined their pug and inviso-zerged to the end, completing while they're half way through braking & killing.

In both cases, grouping with like-minded players only increases the enjoyment. For the efficiency folks, take the four wheels: group splits & everyone heads to different wheel thus getting it done faster (and more efficiently) than a soloer could. For the do-it-all folks, a group can Multi-task with a trapper getting traps, everyone killing and dividing out the breakables so everything gets done in a smooth manor - again usually considered better than soloing.

Some people want to run in a group with the traditional roles. Some want to amass as much character power in as short a time as possible. Some - like me - want to recreate the pnp social group experience despite age () and RL friends having moved to far enough locations that sitting at a table is out of the question. Make a pug mixed out of those groups (among others) and this disappointment often ensues. Fill a party out of any one playstyle category and it's all win.


TL;DR: The game doesn't punish grouping, it punishes assuming.

[Myrddinman]

I'm all for increasing the rewards for grouping, be they additional XP or bonuses to loot drops. I also think the death penalty should be applied only to player and not the group.

This being said, I'm not sure if there are any rewards tempting enough for some players to group, if it means that they will have a slower completion. Even at a 50% XP bonus for a full group, if it takes an additional 15 minutes to run, that's 2-3 more quests an efficient power gamer can run in the same amount of time, netting more favor, loot possibilities, and Saga completions.

True, soloing quests is more efficient; but is it more enjoyable? Well, that depends on the player and will always be totally subjective. If someone absolutely needs to run quests as efficiently as possible despite not really enjoying themselves, then how can the devs fix that?

[PermaBanned]

I see your point but I don't think it is good for an MMORPG. An MMORPG, which is all about grouping, should encourage grouping and discourage soloing.

Scaling in DDO used to (IMO ofc) work much better when it was handled strictly through difficulty setting. It seemed that "back in the day" the quest difficulties were all set for a six-person party. While this was easy to overcome/ignore to solo on Normal, or short man a Hard; you had to have your **** together to shortman Elite and soloing Elite was something of an accomplishment.

Unfortunately there were a lot of solo players out there with money that WarnTurbine wanted, so the current iteration of scaling was created. Meh, it is what it is.

[Luxgolg]

I've spent this whole arty life solo Hard streak, only hitting pugs for GH for the extra XP. Its cost me some more time, but has been so much easier and faster. Even using the auto-lfm once I enter a quest, it rarely got hit. I'd love to see the "party" come back, but there arent enough people around at level anymore.

[AzB]

It seems to me that at least some of the problem is self inflicted.

Firstly, where is it written that efficiency has to be the number one priority? Or even in the top ten? It's a game, learn some patience. Who cares if you complete the quest in 10 minutes or an hour if you had fun?

Secondly, it's easy enough to find a guild or group of people that has a playstyle like you if you enjoy grouping. I have two mains, for example, one for running with a static group of friends, and another for soloing or pugging. This allows me to play however I feel.

But however you handle it, you have the ability to change your game. I understand that it's a little annoying to be ready to go when one of your party decides that running a bunch of errands first is more important. It is a little inconsiderate. But this idea that saving eight seconds off a quest is somehow important is beyond ridiculous. My favorite is the guys that toss a ddoor at the end of a quest because it's faster to exit that way than recall. I've experimented a number of times just recalling instead, and there is rarely any difference in the time it takes, and when there is, it's only one or two seconds. It's this ongoing attempt to always go faster that is really silly. (Unless you are playing to beat a clock, sometimes that can be fun. But really not appropriate for most pugs) It's really nothing more than impatience turned into a bad habit justified by calling it efficient.

[Deadlock]

Recipe for forum fun
1. Turn off scaling
2. Set the number of mobs that spawn and the HP etc of those mobs to max on the basis of a full party of 4
3. Sit back
4. Wait for the torrent of forum posts by people complaining that soloing is too difficult
5. Watch as new players completely new to the game who haven't learned about LFM's or how to play the game log off after a short period of time having decided that the game isn't for them and isn't accessible to new players

Scaling can be a pain in the neck and I don't always agree with it, but you need to keep reminding yourself that the mechanic is there to reduce the difficulty from maximum to give soloist and short-manned parties an easier time.

[Forzah]

Recipe for forum fun
5. Watch as new players completely new to the game who haven't learned about LFM's or how to play the game log off after a short period of time having decided that the game isn't for them and isn't accessible to new players.

Starting players can only play quests on normal. When you enter the quest the tooltip says that normal is the recommended difficulty level for soloing. No problem there. I didn't expect to be able to solo elite when I first started.

[Deadlock]

Starting players can only play quests on normal. When you enter the quest the tooltip says that normal is the recommended difficulty level for soloing. No problem there. I didn't expect to be able to solo elite when I first started.

And you shouldn't expect to do Elite when you start out. Nobody does.

But you would be mistaken to say that new players can only play quests on normal. Any VIP can open elite.

[Saekee]

Solution: allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it

SIGNED awesome idea

give bonus xp for bigger party size,

not sure about this; I think it happens anyway since one tends to get various bonuses that a large group offers--especially if we accept the next proposition:

give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

SIGNED absolutely!


I think also that the OP is raising a subtle point in all this (in terms of some of the comments of others in this thread about efficiency): He or she wishes to make pugging and grouping more appealing to veterans, precisely the group that would be nice to encourage to lead and mentor new players throughout quests. Even if you reject the specifics of his or her ideas, I think it is a good question to raise.

[Stormraiser]

Starting players can only play quests on normal. When you enter the quest the tooltip says that normal is the recommended difficulty level for soloing. No problem there. I didn't expect to be able to solo elite when I first started.

There are many things that aren't counted:

1) Brand new players often won't notice which difficulty a quest is set on, especially if a group member has already set it, they will just click enter.
2) Too often a brand new player joining a group won't face many dangers unless they wander away, or ahead, which won't happen much in the early quests. The more experienced players are typically ready for mob spawns and kill things super fast in the low levels.
3) New players who complete the harbor quests on elite think that the rest of the quests will be similar in difficulty.
4) New players may not realize that they are being carried through quests. Yes, they might be swinging and hitting the mobs, but might only rack up 2-5% of the kills.
5) Fairly new players, will jump into EE quests because for some reason they believe that it is your given right to be able to smash through EE quests the moment you hit level 20.

[HastyPudding]

One of the main problems with the DDO community IS the soloing of heroics. New players join and only have each other to rely on to learn the game (other than asking questions in harbor and marketplace chat, which often leads to trolling and false information) for the first 12-15 levels (if they make it that far). TRing is nothing more than the same, veteran players soloing through heroics.

There needs to be serious incentive to form parties. As it is right now, the game is stagnating and on its last legs.

[Deadlock]

Solution: allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it

You mean like setting your LFM option to public?

[myliftkk_v2]

DDO actually punishes players for grouping. At least, at heroic levels solo is easier AND faster for many quests.

It feels wrong that solo is easier and faster and better exp.

For example, yesterday i did Splinterskull chain (http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_Splinterskull), judging by ship buff timer it took around 35-40 minutes. Most parts of chain were just required kills (if they were required) and invis-running. Note: i didnt try to go as fast as i could, i did at my pace without effort to speed up or something.

Now why would i open group for players for this chain? I get punished by game (from PoV of efficiency) for doing this. Firstly, i will have to wait before people join (and if you are only 1 person in grp, this will take longer) - option being me starting without waiting but then a lot players wouldnt join at all since most want full chain.

Even so, OK some players join:
1) i will have to wait them before they get to quest - usualy some running in needed to quest entrance thru tangleroot gorge area
2) some will take time to buff up and re-stock
3) when they join chances are they wont have invis and we will have to either deal with DA or to kill mobs, much slowing quest completion
4) chances that some die (-10%), i dont care for this but some do
5) mobs gets buffed up, it wouldnt be problem since i skip most of them anyway but since (see 3) now we will have to kill them - it will slower quest
6) you will probably have to explain some how to get to quest and when they get to you, after you waiting, suddenly they are f2p players and cant join
7) and possibly someone will DC's/afk/pike

From PoV "i dont care for exp, just want to have some fun" grouping is good idea, but for efficiency game outright punishes for grouping.


Solution: remove dungeon scaling, allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it, give bonus xp for bigger party size, give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

Really? A quest where you run through the same dungeon like 4 times and another 2 times. In. A. Row. And that's your complaint?

1. Splinterskull is a cakewalk even in a full party (especially if you're just bee-lining for completion). Any less scaling and you could let a hireling mop it up.
2. Invis really isn't needed. It's only a few minutes more to kill whatever with a decent party, but if you're expecting low-level toons to have perfected the invis-a-zerg (or have the invis clickies/scrolls/pots), that's your own fault for not listing on the lfm and calling it an invis-a-zerg upfront.
3. Hardly anyone expects to get thru the whole SS chain unless they start from the first. Doesn't stop them from joining for whatever.
4. XP isn't hard to come by at those levels, losing the 10% death bonus hardly matters.
5. Pikers see #1, and pikers don't get DA.
6. Put p2p in lfm. But, given the drop off in DDO population, pretty much everyone owns most stuff now. I hardly ever got p2p/f2p questions on this last TR. Just aren't that many people left.**

The game doesn't punish grouping as much as players self-flaggelate themselves over the fact that one tiny thing might go wrong and since that's not in their quest plan, it's all fubar for them after that. Learn to improvise (aka adventuring) and you'll find pugging isn't really penalized*.

*None of this applies to Tempest Spine where 25% of party is guarranteed to get lost, on a map where no one can tell where the f they are...
**Possibly unique to Gland (in the future to be renamed "Veteran" server)