DDO questing: Solo'ing vs Grouping

[xTethx]

I agree with most of the suggestions in this thread. Not sure how the suggestion of more xp for more party members should work though. If they did institute this bonus though I believe the -10% should stay for the whole group. Provides incentive to be a lot less risky in not losing the 10% whereas if you were solo you are probably more comfortable in not losing 10%, but you wont get an added bonus of grouping with more people. Percentages would have to be a work in progress.

[Sebastrd]

From my perspective, it's a playstyle thing. The game doesn't punish grouping, it punishes people who both pug assume that everyone who joins will play the way they do and have comperae quest knowledge.

OP, you play for efficiency, and feel "punished" by pugging up people who enjoy the hack & slash and want to play through the whole of the quest killing, trapping & breaking stuff. Conversely, they would feel "punished" if you joined there pug and inviso-zerged to the end, completing while they're half way through braking & killing.

In both cases, grouping with like-minded players only increases the enjoyment. For the efficiency folks, take the four wheels: group splits & everyone heads to different wheel thus getting it done faster (and more efficiently) than a soloer could. For the do-it-all folks, a group can Multi-task with a trapper getting traps, everyone killing and dividing out the breakables so everything gets done in a smooth manor - again usually considered better than soloing.

Some people want to run in a group with the traditional roles. Some want to amass as much character power in as short a time as possible. Some - like me - want to recreate the pnp social group experience despite age () and RL friends having moved to far enough locations that sitting at a table is out of the question. Make a pug mixed out of those groups (among others) and this disappointment often ensues. Fill a party out of any one playstyle category and it's all win.


TL;DR: The game doesn't punish grouping, it punishes assuming.

I don't have enough hands to give this post as many thumbs-up as it deserves.

[Saekee]

One of the main problems with the DDO community IS the soloing of heroics. New players join and only have each other to rely on to learn the game (other than asking questions in harbor and marketplace chat, which often leads to trolling and false information) for the first 12-15 levels (if they make it that far). TRing is nothing more than the same, veteran players soloing through heroics.

There needs to be serious incentive to form parties. As it is right now, the game is stagnating and on its last legs.

Hastypudding this is my point in my comment--I agree with you--I think that the OP is subtly addressing the non-incentive to vets to set up PUGS

[PermaBanned]

Recipe for forum fun
1. Turn off scaling
2. Set the number of mobs that spawn and the HP etc of those mobs to max on the basis of a full party of 4
3. Sit back
4. Wait for the torrent of forum posts by people complaining that soloing is too difficult
5. Watch as new players completely new to the game who haven't learned about LFM's or how to play the game log off after a short period of time having decided that the game isn't for them and isn't accessible to new players

Scaling can be a pain in the neck and I don't always agree with it, but you need to keep reminding yourself that the mechanic is there to reduce the difficulty from maximum to give soloist and short-manned parties an easier time.

Now granted, a great many things have changed since then - all of which are relevant to a population issue not being discussed here; but I can't help to note that back when scaling did work more like that, the population (at least by proofless recollection) seemed to be larger. I don't think this "make it harder & watch the newbys leave" holds water. It didn't drive away me, you or a great many other people who started when it worked like that.

[Deadlock]

Now granted, a great many things have changed since then - all of which are relevant to a population issue not being discussed here; but I can't help to note that back when scaling did work more like that, the population (at least by proofless recollection) seemed to be larger. I don't think this "make it harder & watch the newbys leave" holds water. It didn't drive away me, you or a great many other people who started when it worked like that.

It's a point that I would be more than happy to be proved wrong on. It would mean that we are attracting a more mature quality of gamer who is looking for a challenge and doesn't expect to know everything and have done everything possible in the first month of playing a new MMO.

While Korthos is a much improved starter area on what we used to have, I think that a one-time-per-account set of tutorial achievements that talk you through putting up an lfm, joining an lfm, drinking a cure light/moderate/serious wounds pot, curing disease, a curse, poison, stat damage, using charisma based bluff/intimidate/diplomacy skills, using waterbreathing to swim, featherfall to drop from a height, a stealth based set to bluff one member from a group, etc etc would be useful. Real basic stuff that covers a wide range of ingame issues. But one-time only unless you choose to run them again.

[nibel]

I've been advocating for years for Elite to have always full 6-person scaling, so on that difficulty setting, any extra body is a bonus, and not a liability. It haven't changed thus far. I'm ok with Normal being scaled, so it is easier on the solo player. Even small scaling on Hard is ok (IMO, it should be scaled for a 4-person party, and the last two add extra challenge). Just put Elite back on Elite. If you want an Elite Streak, either you should be that good, or you should party up to raise your chances.

[TrinityTurtle]

Hastypudding this is my point in my comment--I agree with you--I think that the OP is subtly addressing the non-incentive to vets to set up PUGS

Which I kinda sad. I've been playing for four years, but I still enjoy the fun of a good group of people! Who cares if I can do it faster myself if I find a fun group? Sadly, finding those fun groups these days is getting harder, and so many are silent ghosts who don't interact with anyone in the quest and might as well not be there in the quest with me anyway, they're not adding anything to my experience other than making the dungeon faster to do than alone.

I think too many people underestimate the effect of good manners and personality on the pug scene. And too many posters obsess over efficiency and requiring game incentive to group up have forgotten that human interaction and making new friends IS FUN.

[droid327]

I think the OP is describing more of the incentive to invisi-zerg than a penalty for grouping. Its comparing apples to oranges - if you played through the quests "as intended", ie fighting all the spawns, then its always faster with a friend/friends than solo.

If you're trying to do it "James Bond" style, so to say, then yes its better solo, as one might expect - that's why thieves and spies tend to only send in one person to do infiltration. That's not a disincentive to group, though, that's a disincentive to *fight*

[Deadlock]

I've been advocating for years for Elite to have always full 6-person scaling, so on that difficulty setting, any extra body is a bonus, and not a liability. It haven't changed thus far. I'm ok with Normal being scaled, so it is easier on the solo player. Even small scaling on Hard is ok (IMO, it should be scaled for a 4-person party, and the last two add extra challenge). Just put Elite back on Elite. If you want an Elite Streak, either you should be that good, or you should party up to raise your chances.

Sounds good to me. Would add:

First life = maximum streak on Normal, Hard and Elite
Second life = maximum streak on Hard and Elite
Third life = maximum streak on Elite

Allow new players to get maximum streak bonus on quests on Normal and remove the feeling that if they're not doing it on Elite then they're doing it wrong. No guarantee that it will do anything to improve the LFM situation, but can't do any harm, and who really cares if a first life character is getting an easier XP ride through quests.

Although hand-in-hand with this, I'd remove the reduced XP curve for first and second lives and set everyone on the third life curve, but that's just me.

[SirValentine]

TL;DR: The game doesn't punish grouping, it punishes assuming.

The game actively punishes grouping.

Other things being equal, more players means more damage to the enemy mobs. So, really, I don't have a problem with, nor see it as punishment, that mobs have somewhat more hit points when the party has more players. They don't have 4x or 6x the HP, so strictly from that perspective, grouping is actually easier for killing enemies.

BUT...players do not get more hit points just because they group. So the fact that enemy and trap DAMAGE also scales up with party size means things you can live through or heal through solo, will one-shot you or out-pace your healing when you are with 3-5 other people.

Keep the mob HP scaling. Scrap the damage scaling. Call it a day.

[Seikojin]

If you thought it was easy alone, imagine if you had a group who knew it as well as you?

Have to run from one side to the other do get a second objective? Not with a buddy who did that already!

After tring, some tr groups would cut quest completion times in half due to the fact that person A would hit objective 1, B on 2, so on and so forth.

So no punishing for groups. Groups punish zergers.

[myliftkk_v2]

It's a point that I would be more than happy to be proved wrong on. It would mean that we are attracting a more mature quality of gamer who is looking for a challenge and doesn't expect to know everything and have done everything possible in the first month of playing a new MMO.

While Korthos is a much improved starter area on what we used to have, I think that a one-time-per-account set of tutorial achievements that talk you through putting up an lfm, joining an lfm, drinking a cure light/moderate/serious wounds pot, curing disease, a curse, poison, stat damage, using charisma based bluff/intimidate/diplomacy skills, using waterbreathing to swim, featherfall to drop from a height, a stealth based set to bluff one member from a group, etc etc would be useful. Real basic stuff that covers a wide range of ingame issues. But one-time only unless you choose to run them again.

A bridge too far for Turbine. They can't be bothered to explain how stuff really works most of the time.

Just trying to remember which vendors sell which pots means going to the wiki (especially for pots that only appear at 1 vendor). To say nothing of Estar not even having a scroll vendor. A multitude of ways to teleport, but nothing that encompasses everywhere.

Half the "preparedness" game is running around buying things from a ton of different vendors (most who new players won't know exist). My toon needs a page or apprentice or something.

Sword boy! Where are you?!?!

[myliftkk_v2]

After tring, some tr groups would cut quest completion times in half due to the fact that person A would hit objective 1, B on 2, so on and so forth.

^^ This is what happens. Most groups can parallel it if 2 know the quest. Even the ones that aren't parallel worthy, some will run ahead the next encounter to kill mobs while 1/2 the party finishes off the last trash, essentially hopscotching through the quest and shortening the time. Kill enough to avoid red DA, and move on.

[Myrddinman]

A bridge too far for Turbine. They can't be bothered to explain how stuff really works most of the time.

Just trying to remember which vendors sell which pots means going to the wiki (especially for pots that only appear at 1 vendor). To say nothing of Estar not even having a scroll vendor. A multitude of ways to teleport, but nothing that encompasses everywhere.

Half the "preparedness" game is running around buying things from a ton of different vendors (most who new players won't know exist). My toon needs a page or apprentice or something.

Sword boy! Where are you?!?!

This is all so true. I've often wondered why there are so little official resources for this game. I'm sure it has something to do with prioritizing developer resources, but with so much tribal knowledge rooted in this game, I can't fathom the amount to new players leaving the game after only a few weeks.

[PermaBanned]

The game actively punishes grouping.

Other things being equal, more players means more damage to the enemy mobs. So, really, I don't have a problem with, nor see it as punishment, that mobs have somewhat more hit points when the party has more players. They don't have 4x or 6x the HP, so strictly from that perspective, grouping is actually easier for killing enemies.

BUT...players do not get more hit points just because they group. So the fact that enemy and trap DAMAGE also scales up with party size means things you can live through or heal through solo, will one-shot you or out-pace your healing when you are with 3-5 other people.

Keep the mob HP scaling. Scrap the damage scaling. Call it a day.

I realize that's how (it seems to me) most people look at it. Having been here since way before we had that kind of scaling, back when scaling was simply "Norm/Hard/Elite" I see it as the the quest scales down for less/solo players, not scaling up for groups.

[Uska]

DDO actually punishes players for grouping. At least, at heroic levels solo is easier AND faster for many quests.

It feels wrong that solo is easier and faster and better exp.

For example, yesterday i did Splinterskull chain (http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_Splinterskull), judging by ship buff timer it took around 35-40 minutes. Most parts of chain were just required kills (if they were required) and invis-running. Note: i didnt try to go as fast as i could, i did at my pace without effort to speed up or something.

Now why would i open group for players for this chain? I get punished by game (from PoV of efficiency) for doing this. Firstly, i will have to wait before people join (and if you are only 1 person in grp, this will take longer) - option being me starting without waiting but then a lot players wouldnt join at all since most want full chain.

Even so, OK some players join:
1) i will have to wait them before they get to quest - usualy some running in needed to quest entrance thru tangleroot gorge area
2) some will take time to buff up and re-stock
3) when they join chances are they wont have invis and we will have to either deal with DA or to kill mobs, much slowing quest completion
4) chances that some die (-10%), i dont care for this but some do
5) mobs gets buffed up, it wouldnt be problem since i skip most of them anyway but since (see 3) now we will have to kill them - it will slower quest
6) you will probably have to explain some how to get to quest and when they get to you, after you waiting, suddenly they are f2p players and cant join
7) and possibly someone will DC's/afk/pike

From PoV "i dont care for exp, just want to have some fun" grouping is good idea, but for efficiency game outright punishes for grouping.


Solution: remove dungeon scaling, allow teleport to quest if someone is inside it, give bonus xp for bigger party size, give -10% only to those who died in quest not whole group.

Like most hate the idea of changing death bonus to individual might as well just play solo or a single player rpg having it as a group bonus encourages coroperation

[Uska]

I loathe solo play if I wanted solo play I wouldn't be playing a MMO I want to discouragement of solo play and incentives for group play.


Boy am I glad neg rep is gone as this post would like drive me all the way to red with all the haters out there

[Kir1]

But with ship buffs, invis-running and at what level(?) I guess one already has everything a group could contribute.

Level 6

[Kir1]

I had only 4 kills on the Zulkash totem quest, and the totem counted as a kill. See more about that run here.

Got 2 kills, was also surprised that totem counted as kill.

OP, you play for efficiency, and feel "punished" by pugging up people who enjoy the hack & slash and want to play through the whole of the quest killing, trapping & breaking stuff. Conversely, they would feel "punished" if you joined their pug and inviso-zerged to the end, completing while they're half way through braking & killing.

I am not talking about different types of grp. When they follow, they join leader's way of playing quest (at least this is what i also do when join someone else grp).
Just read points 1) to 7) - it is not about different groups, it is about plenty of time waiting and spent not on actually doing quest or on going much slower then you can.

It seems to me that at least some of the problem is self inflicted.

Firstly, where is it written that efficiency has to be the number one priority? Or even in the top ten? It's a game, learn some patience. Who cares if you complete the quest in 10 minutes or an hour if you had fun?

Waiting for more time to actually start quest then it takes time to complete quest is not fun. I am not sure there is anyone who thinks waiting for all to finally be ready and gather is fun.

Recipe for forum fun
1. Turn off scaling
2. Set the number of mobs that spawn and the HP etc of those mobs to max on the basis of a full party of 4
3. Sit back
4. Wait for the torrent of forum posts by people complaining that soloing is too difficult
5. Watch as new players completely new to the game who haven't learned about LFM's or how to play the game log off after a short period of time having decided that the game isn't for them and isn't accessible to new players

Scaling can be a pain in the neck and I don't always agree with it, but you need to keep reminding yourself that the mechanic is there to reduce the difficulty from maximum to give soloist and short-manned parties an easier time.

My bad, i didnt mention (but i thought that it is kind of clear) that scaling is for _ELITE_ only. New players can do on Normal or Hard where scaling works as usual.

You mean like setting your LFM option to public?

Trolling?

I am not sure if completionist have no clue that you cant teleport inside quests when joining public qroups...

Really? A quest where you run through the same dungeon like 4 times and another 2 times. In. A. Row. And that's your complaint?

Actualy more then 4 times )

And Splinterskull is just example.

MOST quests on heroics are faster and _easier_ to run through solo.

I am not sure why noone replies to that part. I will type it in bold. Running quests SOLO is easier and faster then in group. This is horrible game design.

One of the main problems with the DDO community IS the soloing of heroics. New players join and only have each other to rely on to learn the game (other than asking questions in harbor and marketplace chat, which often leads to trolling and false information) for the first 12-15 levels (if they make it that far). TRing is nothing more than the same, veteran players soloing through heroics.

There needs to be serious incentive to form parties. As it is right now, the game is stagnating and on its last legs.

Why would they invite new players if SOLOing is much easier and much faster then GROUPing.

DDO promotes solo'ing over grouping, that is bad idea. This sentence is short summary of my topic starting post.

[Nestroy]

Recipe for forum fun
1. Turn off scaling
2. Set the number of mobs that spawn and the HP etc of those mobs to max on the basis of a full party of 4
3. Sit back
4. Wait for the torrent of forum posts by people complaining that soloing is too difficult
5. Watch as new players completely new to the game who haven't learned about LFM's or how to play the game log off after a short period of time having decided that the game isn't for them and isn't accessible to new players

Scaling can be a pain in the neck and I don't always agree with it, but you need to keep reminding yourself that the mechanic is there to reduce the difficulty from maximum to give soloist and short-manned parties an easier time.

Receipe for Deadlock fun
1.) Turn off the grouping menu.
2.) Set the quests to "elite solo" only.
3.) Sit back.
4.) No forum complaints, since we are all dirty bad evil elitist soloists.
5.) Watch DDO die faster than the litteral snowball in hell. LFMing is the first thing any player learns in Korthos and is done extensively until people realize it is easier to solo zerg the quests or when they give up because they get repeatedly abused by the favor zergs.

Scaling is one nail in the coffin of this game. Soloing the quests and zerging the quests without looking left, right and behind are big nails too.

We always see the rants of how easy DDO is on EE and elite content generally. OK. Why not doing away with scaling (and all associated bugs), scale all quests to 4 people in party and let the elitists have their fun to solo truely challenging quests again. And here we go.