I don't even know what to call this...

[Narfle_the_Garthok]

Drama aside this is about simple action economy and demanding services. A player that takes no effort to be tactical, heal up, take a break or do anything other than zerg in and die is demanding other people too spend actions to enable this behaviour. Thus costing them whatever other action they plan or like too do. This is selfish.

Clerics are effective healers, when one is around (s)he can heal you more effectively than you can. A byoh group with a healing cleric is simply optimizing action economy as well as being considerate.

[mobrien316]

Can you explain how the sorc should be expected to buff you while you, as a cleric, should not be expected to heal others.

This indicates to me that you aren't even pretending to read the posts to which you refer, and are simply trolling.


Mea culpa for not identifying that earlier.

[HAL]

Take a step back, you've really flown completely off the rails here. You apparently seem to think that because someone sometimes posts byoh lfm's that it somehow obligates them to always play that way. He doesn't have to explain himself to you or anyone else.

When you try to make the point that the sorc was just following the philosophy of the op, it implies that he is aware of the philsophy, and probably that he is aware of the forum identity of the person he was playing with. I highly doubt either is the case.

I'm not a big fan of byoh, i'm a believer that if you group with someone, you do what you can to help them out. In this case, you trying to support the sorc's position based on any sort of self sufficiency philosophy is utter nonsense, as the sorc clearly wasn't self sufficient. He was self centered. The exact attitude that i don't agree with relating to byoh philosophy.

While I do not have a problem with BYOH, I applaud the rest of this post. +1 - Yay for logic!

[twigzz]

Boooooo!! Chill's posts got deleted as I was reading lol. I was enjoying the freakout!

[Standal]

Me too. I refreshed the thread to make sure I wasn't missing important posts and it went from 88 to 84 posts.

Since we're not talking about BYOH anymore (a topic that neither of the principals understands imo), I'll address the actual OP.

Mobrien,

Please do not just roll over for these people. It is possible to be both civil and hostile to stupidity. It's really surprising how many people will just witlessly ask you to do completely unreasonable things and then do a complete 180 when you challenge their position.

For example.

You: "Can I get a GH, pls."

Him: "I prefere to save my SP for offensive casting."

You: "So your position is that I buff you, but you don't buff me?" (Please note that we know the sorc carries GH, he just chooses not to buff OP. Different story imo if I tell you I'm not willing to scroll GH on you in an explorer area.)

Him: (What can he say at this point?)

You: "That's unacceptable. I want a GH and I want it now."

At this point, you have stated your opinion and the sorc has an opportunity to improve.

[cpito]

Chilldude also apparently hasn't read the link in my signature, even though he clearly likes to refer to it. If he had read it, he would have seen that, when my cleric posts BYOH groups, all he's looking for is that people have their own cure pots, poison pots, curse pots, etc... My cleric still heals them, he just prefers to group with people who don't operate under the impression that the cleric is 100% responsible for everyone else's red bar.

Anyone who has a problem with that shouldn't even be in groups; they should be soloing with a hireling cleric.

It's kind of funny, I know I've perused your thread in the past, I may have even posted in it but for the sake of this thread I didn't feel it neccesary to recheck it because I know what the word "when" means and I'm quite certain that you, as do a majority of byoh clerics, choose to play that way for the same reasons I do. What scares me a little about the anti-byoh crowd (and this is how it does relate to this thread due to a similar mind-set) is their seeming inability to see other players as more than just bots playing npcs. How I feel like playing tonite does not dictate how I'll feel like playing tomorrow night. I have good moods and bad moods that directly effect how I want to play on any given evening. If people want to be able to expect the same exact behavior every quest from any given class, they should stick to programmed hirelings.

[kierg10]

If people want to be able to expect the same exact behavior every quest from any given class, they should stick to programmed hirelings.

FALSE.

I find hirelings more erratic than people who are bipolar.

[Grimdiegn]

I said "no problem"

I see where you went wrong.

[Chilldude]

This indicates to me that you aren't even pretending to read the posts to which you refer, and are simply trolling.


Mea culpa for not identifying that earlier.

You know, I always find it hilarious when people are completely unable to support their point so they just start tossing around "trolling". Often, as is the case here, the person screaming troll is the person actually trolling. There isn't any point to this thread other than an attempt to stir up an argument. One random sorcerer was hesitant about giving out a greater heroism buff in an explorer area... not even in a quest. However the way the story was presented we are to believe the OP is this super gracious team player who selflessly gave and gave and gave and whose one small request was met with selfishness.

I'm going to assume for a split second that the events transpired even remotely similar to how they were recounted. Let's have a look at the OP...

"Early this morning (or very late last night) I was in Gianthold with my level 15 battle cleric, doing slayers. A level 16 sorcerer joined me after a few minutes and asked if I would mind recalling so he could run with me, as he was new, didn't know his way around, and would probably need healing. I said "no problem" and recalled and then we both stepped back in. He asked if he could have a Deathward and I gave it to him, no problem."

As I have already established, the OP made a very clear choice here to take on the responsibility of healing this sorcerer. The OP also states very clearly that the player is a new player. In the OP's landmark Divine lead BYOH party thread, he makes it very clear where he stands on self sufficiency...

"...filter out the players who think there is no need to carry pots or wands, and no need to play with any strategy other than "CHARGE!" because there's a cleric with a blue bar to keep them up."

"I would like to see the party members at least trying to fill up their red bars on their own, especially when we aren't in combat."

So the OP very clearly knew what he was getting himself into when he voluntarily recalled out and re-entered with the sorc so that he could take on the responsibility of healing him. This wasn't a case of them both just happening to join the same party and the OP was saddled with the burden of healing someone by default, the OP specifically CHOSE to recall out and heal the new sorc.

Notice the OP did not tell the sorc to go buy some pots. The OP did not tell the sorc to get some UMD and bring some wands. From what we can tell, the OP did not give the sorc any indication what so ever that he feels that a divine has no responsibility for healing people. In fact, he gave the sorc the impression that he was perfectly fine with healing him as if it were a completely normal thing.

Moving on...

"As we were running around I had my aura going, but he kept getting so far away that he would ask for a heal, which I kept giving him. I told him several times that if he stood closer he probably wouldn't need a heal because he'd be in my aura, but he ignored me. I also told him that if he could refrain from tossing a spell at each cluster of mobs until I jumped into the middle of them, he'd have less of them running after him all the time and would therefore need less heals. He said that's the way he plays."

At this point, there hasn't been any indication that the OP gave any predetermined instructions as to how the sorc was to play or under what conditions the OP was willing to heal. To me, it seems like the OP merely wants to add the sorc's DPS to his own gimpy play style. I'll run in and start swinging, then you can help finish them off." So this is really the point at which the OP, a self proclaimed veteran of the game who 'doesn't need anyone else', should have simply been an adult about it and recalled out, telling the sorc that their play styles did not match up and he was not enjoying himself.

Again, this was not in a quest, this was merely an explorer area.

"I usually carry a stack of Heroism pots and use them quite liberally. After tossing the sorc a couple of dozen heals, I asked him if he had Greater Heroism, thinking he could give it to me and I could stop chugging pots every five minutes. He said he does have it, but when I asked for it he said he prefers to focus on offensive spellcasting rather than buffs.

I actually stopped and asked if he was serious. He said he was.

I was tempted to tell him that, while it was apparent he needed me for healing, I didn't need him, the feeble scorching rays he kept tossing at the fire giants, or his lousy aggro management. I was also tempted to recall, boot him, and re-enter without a word. "

So the OP was tempted to be an adult. I honestly question why the OP did not follow through with his mature inclination. It seems the obvious answer, the OP was not enjoying playing with the sorc, neither player seemed to desire to adapt their play style to suit the other, why not just be adult about it and part company?

"Instead, I (politely) pointed out that I was using my SP for healing him, and buffing him, and it was hardly unreasonable for me to ask for a GH in return. He asked if I "really needed" the GH and I said I don't "need" it, but it is handy to have. Finally, he gave it to me, but was clearly not very happy about it."

I chuckle every time I ponder how the OP knew the sorc was, "clearly not very happy about it." Did the sorc make a pouty face? Did he stick out his lower lip and cross his arms on his chest? Did he proclaim in a whiny voice, "I don't want to play with you no more, you're a big meany face."?

To me it is quite obvious someone in this scenario does indeed have very thin skin. The sorc is admittedly a new player, who's still learning what's going on. He's probably never been to the forums let alone read the OP's BYOH manifesto. Since the OP was clearly dealing with a new player, they could have explained why they wanted a GH cast on them rather than drinking a heroism pot.

Above all else... this new player being a bit hesitant to give out a GH in an explorer area is hardly the crime of the century. I doubt he'll be topping the FBI's most wanted list any time soon. So what is the point of this thread again if not trolling? To spread awareness of the fact that there are new players in this game that may not always follow a course of action that veteran players have learned over the course of their time playing? Whew, thanks for getting that bulletin out!

Message received, loud and clear!

[Eleia]

The first time I asked him that, he responded with something like, "Why? You can't heal me from there?"

As you stated, he was a new player. I'm not getting on you in any way, shape or form but do you know if this was his first MMO ever? It could have been.

We as gamers get so used to playing a game, or many games we can make the transition between new and vet rather quick. However, I meet fresh out of the box new gamers who have neither played a MMO or a single player game in their life.

Quite a few of them end up being in the 60 - 70-year-old range and their <insert family member here> got them into <insert game here> so they wouldn't be lonely.

Or he/she could have been 10 or five.

The player could have scoured the forums reading old caster rants about not buffing and being DPS and thought that was how the game was expected to be played.

Again we all need to rant now and again but I think new player and Why? You can't heal me from there? should give an obvious answer.

[FestusHood]

As you stated, he was a new player. I'm not getting on you in any way, shape or form but do you know if this was his first MMO ever? It could have been.

We as gamers get so used to playing a game, or many games we can make the transition between new and vet rather quick. However, I meet fresh out of the box new gamers who have neither played a MMO or a single player game in their life.

Quite a few of them end up being in the 60 - 70-year-old range and their <insert family member here> got them into <insert game here> so they wouldn't be lonely.

Or he/she could have been 10 or five.

The player could have scoured the forums reading old caster rants about not buffing and being DPS and thought that was how the game was expected to be played.

Again we all need to rant now and again but I think new player and Why? You can't heal me from there? should give an obvious answer.

This would excuse the sorc if he either didn't have the spell slotted, or simply didn't realize that it was helpful to cast it on the person he was playing with. Once it's determined that he has the spell available, and he knows it's useful because someone asked if he could have it, newness stops being an excuse.

As for him asking if the op really needed it before casting, is deathward necessary out there? I can't remember anything in the gianthold wilderness that requires deathward. Maybe i'm just used to having it on and wasn't paying attention.

[mobrien316]

As you stated, he was a new player. I'm not getting on you in any way, shape or form but do you know if this was his first MMO ever? It could have been.

We as gamers get so used to playing a game, or many games we can make the transition between new and vet rather quick. However, I meet fresh out of the box new gamers who have neither played a MMO or a single player game in their life.

Quite a few of them end up being in the 60 - 70-year-old range and their <insert family member here> got them into <insert game here> so they wouldn't be lonely.

Or he/she could have been 10 or five.

The player could have scoured the forums reading old caster rants about not buffing and being DPS and thought that was how the game was expected to be played.

Again we all need to rant now and again but I think new player and Why? You can't heal me from there? should give an obvious answer.

Because he was a new player is why I went out of my way to help him. I recalled so we could both enter at the same time, I kept my aura going, and I tried to help him with some suggestions as to how he could improve his survivability.

He had GH slotted, but after receiving a couple of dozen heals from me he thought it was sensible to not give me GH because he wanted to "save" his SP for offensive spells. Since he was a new player, I decided to explain why that sort of behavior wouldn't be welcome in most parties.

If he is reading the forums in general and this thread in particular, he can comment on whether he ultimately agreed with me.

[Eleia]

, is deathward necessary out there? I can't remember anything in the gianthold wilderness that requires deathward. Maybe i'm just used to having it on and wasn't paying attention.

Not that im aware of. I've never cast it out there, but I almost never go to gianthold and am only doing it now on my third life.

To me, asking for deathward sounds like a new player who sees clerics cast it in groups and assumes it's always needed.

I've met enough players over the years who think deathward prevents you from dying all together. -.-

[Eleia]

Because he was a new player is why I went out of my way to help him. I recalled so we could both enter at the same time, I kept my aura going, and I tried to help him with some suggestions as to how he could improve his survivability.

He had GH slotted, but after receiving a couple of dozen heals from me he thought it was sensible to not give me GH because he wanted to "save" his SP for offensive spells. Since he was a new player, I decided to explain why that sort of behavior wouldn't be welcome in most parties.

If he is reading the forums in general and this thread in particular, he can comment on whether he ultimately agreed with me.

I know and like I said, I wasn't getting on you. I was playing another game recently and met a few people who had horrid things to say about the forum community - not meaning you at all or anyone in particular -

I figured I'd just throw it out there.

[cpito]

moar rabid raving!

Your claim that there's never been a reasonable explaination is hollow. I can just as easily claim the same about you. There's this old adage that says "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" You would obviously rather die of thirst than accept the water that is our point of view. I'm okay with not seeing eye to eye with someone who wants to tell me how to play and slaps the label "selfish" on anyone who disagrees.

[Vint]

To spread awareness of the fact that there are new players in this game that may not always follow a course of action that veteran players have learned over the course of their time playing? Whew, thanks for getting that bulletin out!

Message received, loud and clear!

I am actually starting to agree with you. Both parties were in the wrong. The Sorc should not be joining BYOH groups if they are not going to heal themselves and the OP is wrong for being an enabler.

Thanks to the OP doing this now I will have everyone joining my BYOH LFM's thinking that I (on my healer) will heal them. They may get the impression that I just write BYOH or my health.

[FestusHood]

I am actually starting to agree with you. Both parties were in the wrong. The Sorc should not be joining BYOH groups if they are not going to heal themselves and the OP is wrong for being an enabler.

Thanks to the OP doing this now I will have everyone joining my BYOH LFM's thinking that I (on my healer) will heal them. They may get the impression that I just write BYOH or my health.

This was NOT a byoh group.

[mobrien316]

I am actually starting to agree with you. Both parties were in the wrong. The Sorc should not be joining BYOH groups if they are not going to heal themselves and the OP is wrong for being an enabler.

Thanks to the OP doing this now I will have everyone joining my BYOH LFM's thinking that I (on my healer) will heal them. They may get the impression that I just write BYOH or my health.

Yes, thanks to my posting an LFM that read, in its entirety, "Gianthold S/R/E. All welcome." people will now assume that all healers in BYOH parties will heal them.

This was not a BYOH party. Unless you assume that the sorcerer saw my LFM, looked up my name on MyDDO, went to the forums to see my posting history, saw that I sometimes post BYOH groups, and assumed that, even though this group wasn't BYOH it still meant that it was, I don't see your point.

What, precisely, did I enable the sorcerer to do? In my opinion, he was engaging in a play style that would not be welcome in most groups (i.e. - expecting heals and buffs from a divine caster but refusing to give even one buff in return) so I politely explained to him why that sort of behavior wouldn't be welcome in most groups. I think that is a much better way of handling it than refusing to heal him, letting him die and refusing to rez him, or recalling and booting him without an explanation.

[Vint]

Yes, thanks to my posting an LFM that read, in its entirety, "Gianthold S/R/E. All welcome." people will now assume that all healers in BYOH parties will heal them.

This was not a BYOH party. Unless you assume that the sorcerer saw my LFM, looked up my name on MyDDO, went to the forums to see my posting history, saw that I sometimes post BYOH groups, and assumed that, even though this group wasn't BYOH it still meant that it was, I don't see your point.

What, precisely, did I enable the sorcerer to do? In my opinion, he was engaging in a play style that would not be welcome in most groups (i.e. - expecting heals and buffs from a divine caster but refusing to give even one buff in return) so I politely explained to him why that sort of behavior wouldn't be welcome in most groups. I think that is a much better way of handling it than refusing to heal him, letting him die and refusing to rez him, or recalling and booting him without an explanation.

I apologize, I thought that this was in the OP, but must have been looking at someone down the page.

[cpito]

I apologize, I thought that this was in the OP, but must have been looking at someone down the page.

Yea, the only one really bringing BYOH into this is Chilldude in pursuit of his vendetta.