It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Aashrym]

Surely someone brought it up by now, but I'm not in the mood to read 50+ pages of nonsense:

Obviously 1 pot by itself is not OP, or the timer idea wouldn't have been brought up. And since "stacks of pots" seem to be the complaint, why are you not asking for pots to be dropped from the store instead? I send all my major pots to my healer toon- that's across 13 other toons- and she's got around a hundred. That's in the year and half since I rolled her up. I'll go out on a limb and guess that a player with "stacks of pots" is buying them from the store or spending oceans of plat on the AH. If I used my hundred pots just to blast through everything, that'd be a super awesome 8 or 9 quests.

And this is an issue that needs attention?

1 pot isn't OP by itself, I agree, and most of my pot's are from end rewards that I simply haven't used. I can farm enough in a week in preparation to make something much easier than not farming some potions if I choose.

Players mention the bauble or the epic spell storing ring but the bauble works once per rest. If potions were once per rest that would be equal in the boost they give. If they were 3 times per rest that would be equal to the boost an epic ring of spell storing gives. If the potions were regen over time, capped on uses, or had some timers I think that restricts going overboard on how fast the SP can be recovered.

When someone posted the 4 minute timer I jumped into Lamma just to check and found that wasn't true. I would have provided feedback that was going too far if it were.

I want to be clear that I'm not actually complaining, just agreeing that timers are not a bad idea.

I also wouldn't expect any devs to suddenly have an emergency meeting over any imagined "SP potions crisis" or anything like that. I'm sure they can take a quick look at numbers (which they better information on than the player base), determine relative importance and amount of work needed, and decide what or if anything needs to be done.

Heck, in the wrong hands 20 SP potions isn't overpowered, let alone 1. It wouldn't bother me one bit if potions remained exactly as they are and the drop rate were to simply be adjusted either. I just see the SP recovering options and too readily available at this time.

[Aashrym]

There have been plenty of posts explaining exactly why abundant sp potions are good for the game, you've simply chosen to ignore them while simultaneously putting forth "They're overpowered because I say they are" as a valid counter-argument. The whole myth of "endless mana pots" has been debunked repeatedly.

I find it amusing that you would object to disrespecting the rights of others who have a different opinion on the subject when the very subject is disrespecting the rights of others who have a different opinion.

I don't think I've chosen to ignore them. I might have missed them in all the "what's it to you how I play" feedback that I see permeating the thread instead, or number posts calling players who request a change whiners instead of stating why they are good for the game.

So, in a summary, why do you think abundant SP potions are good for the game, and how are you refuting my stance on SP potions bypassing game restrictions and can over power characters during the times they do choose to drink several to sustain SP?

[cpito]

I don't think I've chosen to ignore them. I might have missed them in all the "what's it to you how I play" feedback that I see permeating the thread instead, or number posts calling players who request a change whiners instead of stating why they are good for the game.

So, in a summary, why do you think abundant SP potions are good for the game, and how are you refuting my stance on SP potions bypassing game restrictions and can over power characters during the times they do choose to drink several to sustain SP?

You've asked that question multiple times and have gotten plenty of reasonable responses which you have chosen to either ignore or are simply too lazy to bother with. Why should it be on us to continuously keep answering when you've already proven that no answer will matter?

[Aashrym]

Health pots that are sold at vendors for plat have far more unbalancing affect on this game than pots that take real money pretty much to buy in unlimited supplies.

When we finally address the overpowered health pots being sold at vendors for in game plat, then we should concern ourselves with something that takes real cash to buy.

Or do you think that my time spent working 70 hours a week is less than your time spending 70 hours a week playing a game to get in game perks like health pots?

Better healing potions can be bought in the store too.
SP potions don't take real money to acquire in the first place.
300 SP does so much more than simply healing what a cure potion from a vendor in game does.
It doesn't actually require unlimited supplies of SP potions to make a significant difference.

[Sonos]

60 pages and no one has convinced each other. I don't claim to have the ultimate solution but it might work.

We can agree to disagree but give the concession to those that claim they never use pots and therefore, no one should really either, ever. Not even while they are learning the game. These experts are to be celebrated in the Hall of the Silver Flame. If this describes you, please post your name and I will add you to the list:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...52#post4792252

[Aashrym]

You've asked that question multiple times and have gotten plenty of reasonable responses which you have chosen to either ignore or are simply too lazy to bother with. Why should it be on us to continuously keep answering when you've already proven that no answer will matter?

I asked you a few times and you made responses like this one. Are you unwilling or unable to answer the question?

How is the ability to simply acquire SP to bypass the SP limitation game mechanic good for the game?

[Sonos]

I asked you a few times and you made responses like this one. Are you unwilling or unable to answer the question?

How is the ability to simply acquire SP to bypass the SP limitation game mechanic good for the game?

Wait, i didn't know this, is there an HP limitation in the game as well?

[Aashrym]

Wait, i didn't know this, is there an HP limitation in the game as well?

Yep, and the ability to renew is restricted by SP. Go figure.

[Sonos]

Yep, and the ability to renew is restricted by SP. Go figure.

Really? hmmm because maybe I dreamt this, and mind you I'm not an elite player, I've been able to scroll my way through elite content solo on my monk. That SP restriction you speak of, I don't recall coming into play.

[eonfreon]

How is the ability to simply acquire SP to bypass the SP limitation game mechanic good for the game?

First, I'm not too sure that the initial SP limitation mechanics are all that good for the game to begin with. I think the Devs have seen that it is not all that popular to have to micromanage your SP constantly and have introduced many ways to make SP go further and further and regenerate in various ways.

Besides that, SP pots can help with the learning curve. Especially until they get better gear, which can extend SP by making it harder for Mobs to make saves and such thus requiring less castings.

As people learn they will use less pots. Saving their pots for when bad luck occurs.

I'm not against mana pot timers, however I don't think they are necessary. If anything, it will generally have the result that more people will actually use pots in advance, just in case, so that the timer will have run it's course if things go bad.

If anything it may create more unnecessary usage of mana pots, even before things go bad, which they might not and thus pots will be "wasted".

[Aashrym]

Really? hmmm because maybe I dreamt this, and mind you I'm not an elite player, I've been able to scroll my way through elite content solo on my monk. That SP restriction you speak of, I don't recall coming into play.

You should try playing a caster then because you can heal yourself a lot more with spell off the SP than you can off the scrolls, and still use the scrolls as well, and add wand and scroll mastery to them.

Most casters renew their hit point and add to their offense with SP and can do both with potions. If you are impressed by your heal scroll then drinking a single potion that let's you cast mass heal without swapping weapons and no concentration check should knock your socks off.

The difference is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Sonos]

The point was missed so I'll break it down for ya. Let's take e-Snitch, just for an example. That Crateos takes a bit to go down. I don't disagree that some can do it without any SP regen but what I'm saying is: it's way easier on a monk with scrolls than trying to manage your sp for the fight. Scrolls are easier to acquire, there is a vendor. Lest you think, well SP pots are just as easy, let me remind you that even if you buy DDO store pots, you took time at your job or maybe your parents took time at their job, I don't judge, that took a bit more effort. Also, if you don't have high enough concentration on monk by the time you can scroll heal, there are more serious problems pending. And I guarantee it takes far far less than a minute to get back to full health, swapping gear or not, I've even smacked Kai-Teng_Fairuza with a scroll a few times before I magically clicked my weapon swap button(also a lot less than a minute).

Also, I have played many lives as a caster and I drank a lot of pots, and if you've read this thread at all(I know it's long lol), you'd see the part that while I drank my weight in pots and probably paid for a semester's tuition of one of the dev's kids. But two things changed: I am lucky to be able to play with some of the better players on the server AND more importantly, I learned to conserve more and more AT MY OWN PACE. <---key in CAPS.

[Aashrym]

First, I'm not too sure that the initial SP limitation mechanics are all that good for the game to begin with. I think the Devs have seen that it is not all that popular to have to micromanage your SP constantly and have introduced many ways to make SP go further and further and regenerate in various ways.

Besides that, SP pots can help with the learning curve. Especially until they get better gear, which can extend SP by making it harder for Mobs to make saves and such thus requiring less castings.

As people learn they will use less pots. Saving their pots for when bad luck occurs.

I'm not against mana pot timers, however I don't think they are necessary. If anything, it will generally have the result that more people will actually use pots in advance, just in case, so that the timer will have run it's course if things go bad.

If anything it may create more unnecessary usage of mana pots, even before things go bad, which they might not and thus pots will be "wasted".

I can understand where you are coming from. I think the the game has gone too far in the accessibility between more ways to recover SP and allowing for better conservation.

If, as stated previously, casting is more powerful than straight combat because of the SP limitation and we've already bypassed that limitation is the alternative to adjust the effectiveness of casting? I think that would be the greater of two evils, tbh, and SP renewal the lesser. I still wouldn't put this high on my crisisometer tho.

Using the SP potions in advance will still provide more SP with or without timers. Where the timers have impact is the rate they can be used and prevent refilling the SP bar so quickly.

[Sonos]

Using the SP potions in advance will still provide more SP with or without timers. Where the timers have impact is the rate they can be used and prevent refilling the SP bar so quickly.

Boom that really is the thread killer here. Was mentioned earlier in the thread but wasn't given proper due.

[Qhualor]

Aashrym- 1
Sonos- 0

his case is actually quite strong and i agree.

[Sonos]

Aashrym- 1
Sonos- 0

his case is actually quite strong and i agree.

I get a zero for agreeing with him? Don't I at least get half a point :P

[Aashrym]

The point was missed so I'll break it down for ya. Let's take e-Snitch, just for an example. That Crateos takes a bit to go down. I don't disagree that some can do it without any SP regen but what I'm saying is: it's way easier on a monk with scrolls than trying to manage your sp for the fight. Scrolls are easier to acquire, there is a vendor. Lest you think, well SP pots are just as easy, let me remind you that even if you buy DDO store pots, you took time at your job or maybe your parents took time at their job, I don't judge, that took a bit more effort. Also, if you don't have high enough concentration on monk by the time you can scroll heal, there are more serious problems pending. And I guarantee it takes far far less than a minute to get back to full health, swapping gear or not, I've even smacked Kai-Teng_Fairuza with a scroll a few times before I magically clicked my weapon swap button(also a lot less than a minute).

Also, I have played many lives as a caster and I drank a lot of pots, and if you've read this thread at all(I know it's long lol), you'd see the part that while I drank my weight in pots and probably paid for a semester's tuition of one of the dev's kids. But two things changed: I am lucky to be able to play with some of the better players on the server AND more importantly, I learned to conserve more and more AT MY OWN PACE. <---key in CAPS.

The point is with SP potions a person doesn't need to manage their SP if they don't want to, crateos included, although I usually just melee crateos down too on my bard and use the SP for healing instead of scrolls, and that SP does me more good in the end fight where I do need bigger healing numbers.

It makes sense that scrolls are easier to acquire because the provide so much less effect on a single SP scroll. The difference is in the better healing plus the better offensive AoE options.

I buy things from the store, for TP purchased on top of my VIP sub. The store isn't my specific concern. I ponied up for a +4 Tome I needed about 45 minutes after they became available. I'm not specifically against store convenience, to be clear.

My concerns are:

1) I don't like dealing with players who expect me to drink SP potions based on how they want me to play. I am a big boy and can tell them to learn to be disappointed but in the end I'll have had to spend at least some of my time listening to the feedback from some who don't like my answer. I doubt this will change regardless.

2) I believe in game balance in certain respects and SP potions, among other resources, edge some things outside of what I would consider a suitable level of ability.

[Pape_27]

How is the ability to simply acquire SP to bypass the SP limitation game mechanic good for the game?

How isnt it good for the game is a better question.

Have these mythical unlimited pot drinkers wreaked havoc on the endgame?

[smatt]

Aashrym- 1
Sonos- 0

his case is actually quite strong and i agree.

LOL, not it's not.. It's the same circular arguement....

He claims "game balance"..... There hasn't been game balance in this game for years. Resource management flew out the window long ago, even before the DDO store. It's totally non-existant now. IF a player or group of players choses to play the resource management game, great cool for them.

He claims that others "require" or "expect" him to drink pots on his casting classes. Well, I guess he should choose who he groups with a little better than. Or he could just say "Sorry all out, do you have any to give me?" Or maybe HE should learn to use HIS resources better, depending on the group he joins, so that HE doesn't run out of his very own resources. Apparently some people have their very own issues with their very own SP pool.... Look inward I say, look inward....

I still say to the people who think SP should be put on timer... I guess the WAY too paowerful epic destinies should be removed or timered MORE. The WAY too powerful unlimited super-weapons of today should go on timer after 50k damage. Hirelings, especially the gold seal one... Gone...

[smatt]

My concerns are:

1) I don't like dealing with players who expect me to drink SP potions based on how they want me to play. I am a big boy and can tell them to learn to be disappointed but in the end I'll have had to spend at least some of my time listening to the feedback from some who don't like my answer. I doubt this will change regardless.

Then don't deal with them.... Ask them to give you pots if they wnat you to ue them.

2) I believe in game balance in certain respects and SP potions, among other resources, edge some things outside of what I would consider a suitable level of ability.

We all have our concerns.. And this was a concern about 3 years ago.... You're trying to empty the pool with a thimble... Once the pool was built and filled it's over....