It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[smatt]

I really don't think that SP pots are keeping anybody in game. Nerfs are a hard thing to deal with but they happen almost every U and with reason. Players learn to deal with these nerfs or they simply avoid MMOs altogether.

Saying people need SP pots to play this game is unreasonable and saying that a noticeable group of people would leave the game if they were nerfed is equally unreasonable.

No I didn't say SP pots were keeping people playing this game... But limiting them will IMO impact some players, causing at least some to give up on some content. It will be one more nail in the coffin...... You might read what I've said a little more carefully, because your conclusions to what I'm saying are incrorrect.

Keeping SP potions as is, impacts almost nobody... Changing them would impact far more. There is no tangible benefit in changing them. The idea put forth that putting them on a timer will force people to learn to play better, is a dream, a fantasy....

Even if this game were to lose 1,000 subs because of a change like this.... Well that would be bad.. It can't afford to lose ANY subs... Except for the ones of people trying to inflict their particular playstyle on everyone... And I dont' think saying that some number of people would leave the game if they limited potions is unreasonable at all... It may not be a big exodus... In fact I doubt it would be. But over time it would end up having an effect on the playerbase totals.. I'm sure of it......

[Vint]

But over time it would end up having an effect on the playerbase totals.. I'm sure of it...

Not to mention that Turbine would be making less money on pots and need to make up that revenue by introducing something even more "game breaking" (to some) to the store.

[Missing_Minds]

I see people are still burning biscuits.

[Rodasch]

Hopefully that's more clear on my stance and sets the proper tone with which it's intended.

Unfortunately, when you put all your answers inside the quote itself, it makes it pretty annoying to try to quote you back to reply point by point.

So bear with me as I try to cover the relevant points.

While I personally do not use sp potions much, if at all, on my casters...I do recognize that there are times when the ability to use them can make a difference in a success or failure for some players. In those situations, if they want to spend the money (either plat or TP) to have the sp potions available to overcome the limitation of their spell points being depleted, they are still paying a penalty for having failed to manage or extend their spell points in the form of having to use potions they bought specifically for that purpose.

In that sense, it could be said that blue bars ARE still limited, as they are not automatically filled up, it requires additional purchases to start filling them back up. (Echoes of Power only fills it up so far, not enough and not fast enough to justify considering it "automatically filled up" in this case).

Now, if we address the "availability" issue of refilling tools (such as bauble), which you seem to feel is ok because it takes a lot of farming and is limited to one use per rest...let's talk about clerics and divine vitality enhancement.

A cleric with Divine Vitality enhancement (including a great many of the hirelings, which are MUCH cheaper than sp potions by any stretch of the imagination, and provide more sp than any mana potion if used properly) is a source of a great deal of spell points in a very short time...and if they're radiant servants, they are a source of ACTUAL infinite spell points, as their turns regenerate. The catch is that after they've burned all their turns, they have a 2 minute regen timer on turns...but they are only limited by time, level of the enhancement, and initial turn counts.

Is that a lesser or greater concern than sp potions?

"But they can't use DV on themselves".

1.) You can use a cleric hireling with DV on yourself.
2.) 2 clerics with DV and Radiant Servant PrE can infinitely recharge eachother's sp and never once need to use a shrine in any mission if they desire.

I could see the concern if spell point potions were sold by VENDORS in game for plat (instead of being loot and auction only), or if they were free in the DDO store. In that case, they could be said to be a zero investment "endless sp" solution, and would deserve some sort of rethink.

My position is that because they are technically limited supply in game (yes they are), and cost a significant amount of Turbine Points in the DDO Store (for an expendable), they are balanced by that fact in and of itself.

Now, let's be clear. A timer on potions would not directly affect my personal playstyle, but would possibly indirectly impact me based on other people's reactions to it and the changes to their play style. So I have no actual horse in this race. My concern is the principle of the issue itself, and the motivations behind the actual suggestion.

I seriously doubt this thread was inspired by concern for the game's longevity, health, or content balance. While a few who came later may be motivated by those things, this thread itself, I feel, was not. Certainly I cannot PROVE that notion, as it is just a subjective opinion, and I concede that. But nonetheless, it's how I feel.

What I'm attempting to do here is bring reason, balance, and critical thinking to the discussion to try to nullify the hyperbole, emotional blackmailing, psychological bullying, and other irrational tactics being used by BOTH sides in an attempt to look cooler and righter than their opposition.

It's not about who's cooler, more-elite, or more awesome as a person. It's about one simple thing: Are the negatives inherent to the current status of sp potions sufficient to justify a re-evaluation of that status and the investment of developer time and effort to develop and implement a change? I don't feel that there is sufficient justification for changing them at this time, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I've just not seen anything yet which convinces me otherwise.

People need to get their egos and emotions out of the way and look at this rationally. When they learn to do that, we might get somewhere.

At least YOU were able to do this and speak with me like a rational human, and for that I thank you. I think that it will be difficult for either you or I to convince the other to change their perspective, because we both have thought our positions out pretty thoroughly. I respect your belief, even if I disagree.

[Sonos]

As for the OP. It has been mentioned a few times that this timer idea is a bust as people would be able to pre-drink and therefore actually has the potential to backfire by causing more drinking and/or wasted SP power.

Personally, I feel that answer is the trump card. Unless there is a definitive, logical, dispute to that, I think the suggestion of the timer has been nullified.

[Postumus]

With 62 pages I declare this thread the clear winner of 2012's "It is time..." sucker thread contest.

Well done OP.

[smatt]

Unfortunately, when you put all your answers inside the quote itself, it makes it pretty annoying to try to quote you back to reply point by point.

So bear with me as I try to cover the relevant points.

While I personally do not use sp potions much, if at all, on my casters...I do recognize that there are times when the ability to use them can make a difference in a success or failure for some players. In those situations, if they want to spend the money (either plat or TP) to have the sp potions available to overcome the limitation of their spell points being depleted, they are still paying a penalty for having failed to manage or extend their spell points in the form of having to use potions they bought specifically for that purpose.

In that sense, it could be said that blue bars ARE still limited, as they are not automatically filled up, it requires additional purchases to start filling them back up. (Echoes of Power only fills it up so far, not enough and not fast enough to justify considering it "automatically filled up" in this case).

Now, if we address the "availability" issue of refilling tools (such as bauble), which you seem to feel is ok because it takes a lot of farming and is limited to one use per rest...let's talk about clerics and divine vitality enhancement.

A cleric with Divine Vitality enhancement (including a great many of the hirelings, which are MUCH cheaper than sp potions by any stretch of the imagination, and provide more sp than any mana potion if used properly) is a source of a great deal of spell points in a very short time...and if they're radiant servants, they are a source of ACTUAL infinite spell points, as their turns regenerate. The catch is that after they've burned all their turns, they have a 2 minute regen timer on turns...but they are only limited by time, level of the enhancement, and initial turn counts.

Is that a lesser or greater concern than sp potions?

"But they can't use DV on themselves".

1.) You can use a cleric hireling with DV on yourself.
2.) 2 clerics with DV and Radiant Servant PrE can infinitely recharge eachother's sp and never once need to use a shrine in any mission if they desire.

I could see the concern if spell point potions were sold by VENDORS in game for plat (instead of being loot and auction only), or if they were free in the DDO store. In that case, they could be said to be a zero investment "endless sp" solution, and would deserve some sort of rethink.

My position is that because they are technically limited supply in game (yes they are), and cost a significant amount of Turbine Points in the DDO Store (for an expendable), they are balanced by that fact in and of itself.

Now, let's be clear. A timer on potions would not directly affect my personal playstyle, but would possibly indirectly impact me based on other people's reactions to it and the changes to their play style. So I have no actual horse in this race. My concern is the principle of the issue itself, and the motivations behind the actual suggestion.

I seriously doubt this thread was inspired by concern for the game's longevity, health, or content balance. While a few who came later may be motivated by those things, this thread itself, I feel, was not. Certainly I cannot PROVE that notion, as it is just a subjective opinion, and I concede that. But nonetheless, it's how I feel.

What I'm attempting to do here is bring reason, balance, and critical thinking to the discussion to try to nullify the hyperbole, emotional blackmailing, psychological bullying, and other irrational tactics being used by BOTH sides in an attempt to look cooler and righter than their opposition.

It's not about who's cooler, more-elite, or more awesome as a person. It's about one simple thing: Are the negatives inherent to the current status of sp potions sufficient to justify a re-evaluation of that status and the investment of developer time and effort to develop and implement a change? I don't feel that there is sufficient justification for changing them at this time, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I've just not seen anything yet which convinces me otherwise.

People need to get their egos and emotions out of the way and look at this rationally. When they learn to do that, we might get somewhere.

At least YOU were able to do this and speak with me like a rational human, and for that I thank you. I think that it will be difficult for either you or I to convince the other to change their perspective, because we both have thought our positions out pretty thoroughly. I respect your belief, even if I disagree.

You win punch AND pie!

[azrael4h]

I see people are still burning biscuits.

You know it's done when the smoke alarm goes off.

[Aashrym]

Unfortunately, when you put all your answers inside the quote itself, it makes it pretty annoying to try to quote you back to reply point by point.

I apologize and will not do that in my responses to you.

So bear with me as I try to cover the relevant points.

While I personally do not use sp potions much, if at all, on my casters...I do recognize that there are times when the ability to use them can make a difference in a success or failure for some players. In those situations, if they want to spend the money (either plat or TP) to have the sp potions available to overcome the limitation of their spell points being depleted, they are still paying a penalty for having failed to manage or extend their spell points in the form of having to use potions they bought specifically for that purpose.

In that sense, it could be said that blue bars ARE still limited, as they are not automatically filled up, it requires additional purchases to start filling them back up. (Echoes of Power only fills it up so far, not enough and not fast enough to justify considering it "automatically filled up" in this case).

It takes about 15 seconds to regain 1500 SP with SP potions. While not actually filling up it's incredibly fast and convenient and that's specifically what timers would change.

I understand players like to use them to make a quest easier or prevent a failed run but that doesn't make them not excessive in what they do. I'm sure players would like to be able use EiN at 6th level every 8 seconds too but that doesn't make it a good idea to let them do so.

It's also only a penalty if they are actually buying the potions instead of farming them, picking them up on the AH (is plat but not much of a penalty with how easy it can be to farm plat), trading in game for them, or using the collectible trinket.

Echoes doesn't do much at all but what it does do is allow for cheap costing spells, cheap costing SLA's, and cheap costing epic abilities. What echoes does do is alleviate need for SP potions in many cases and does accomplish the stated goal of allowing casters to cast when the run out of spell points. It was effective enough that changes were made to archmage evokers over it at the time with regard to magic missile SLA -- something I disagreed with as unnecessary, as a side note.

The concept of finite spell points is also still a resource management concept. Spells are more effective than combat because players need to manage spell points. Removing that restriction, even for periods of time, is still going to be removing that balancing factor and leaving those casters more powerful than the restriction was limiting.

Now, if we address the "availability" issue of refilling tools (such as bauble), which you seem to feel is ok because it takes a lot of farming and is limited to one use per rest...let's talk about clerics and divine vitality enhancement.

A cleric with Divine Vitality enhancement (including a great many of the hirelings, which are MUCH cheaper than sp potions by any stretch of the imagination, and provide more sp than any mana potion if used properly) is a source of a great deal of spell points in a very short time...and if they're radiant servants, they are a source of ACTUAL infinite spell points, as their turns regenerate. The catch is that after they've burned all their turns, they have a 2 minute regen timer on turns...but they are only limited by time, level of the enhancement, and initial turn counts.

Is that a lesser or greater concern than sp potions?

"But they can't use DV on themselves".

1.) You can use a cleric hireling with DV on yourself.
2.) 2 clerics with DV and Radiant Servant PrE can infinitely recharge eachother's sp and never once need to use a shrine in any mission if they desire.

The bauble is once per rest. If SP potions were limited to 3 times per rest they would still be more available and more SP than a bauble. That's why a bauble doesn't concern me. Even if there was an insane cool down on SP potions (not that I would ever suggest something extreme, I thought 20 or 30 seconds was pretty reasonable if anyone wants to look back at my posts) 1 potion is still going to provide the same SP as the bauble and still be easier to acquire.

Nowhere have I stated I want SP potions to be as restricted as a bauble is, and a bauble is still going to be available regardless of SP potion restrictions on top of SP. The bauble is a moot point.

The rate of SP return on DV's is slow and will be limited by the turn regen rate as suggested, and also carries the opportunity cost on using those turns for divine might or healing burst or healing aura. 1 DV is a lot of healing to give up for SP compared to the aura so there is a harder decision to make.

I am not concerned with it being cheaper. I'm concerned with the effectiveness so much SP so fast can have.

Standing there running your hireling to hit an ability that has a timer 8 times to get the same SP as 1 major mem potion is ridiculously slow in comparison, and will still hit a limit in comparison, whether it's the rest shrine or dismissing the hireling and then waiting for the 5 minute timer to re summon or spending all that time using multiple hirelings at that slower rate of SP regeneration.

If you want to compare hirelings with DV to SP potions:

1) hirelings regenerate the SP much more slowly
2) hirelings have a 5 minute timer
3) hirelings are not allowed in raids
4) hirelings always cost plat or TP and players find potions as rewards
5) hirelings take up a party slot

If it took as long to gain the SP by drinking 1 potion as it does to repeatedly DV you might have a point but in order to make that comparison valid a person would need the time it takes to recover the SP to be equal and then would have to increase the activation times on SP potions or add a timer to the cool downs. If we need to add a cool down to make the SP return rate comparable we're following the suggestion in OP.

Spellsinger SP regen is more powerful that DV's between the mass DV procs and vigor, which can be done to oneself. I still wouldn't consider that a comparison to the rate SP potions can replenish SP because it's an over time effect and not immediate.

I could see the concern if spell point potions were sold by VENDORS in game for plat (instead of being loot and auction only), or if they were free in the DDO store. In that case, they could be said to be a zero investment "endless sp" solution, and would deserve some sort of rethink.

My position is that because they are technically limited supply in game (yes they are), and cost a significant amount of Turbine Points in the DDO Store (for an expendable), they are balanced by that fact in and of itself.

Now, let's be clear. A timer on potions would not directly affect my personal playstyle, but would possibly indirectly impact me based on other people's reactions to it and the changes to their play style. So I have no actual horse in this race. My concern is the principle of the issue itself, and the motivations behind the actual suggestion.

I seriously doubt this thread was inspired by concern for the game's longevity, health, or content balance. While a few who came later may be motivated by those things, this thread itself, I feel, was not. Certainly I cannot PROVE that notion, as it is just a subjective opinion, and I concede that. But nonetheless, it's how I feel.

I'm not going to make assumptions about motivations or ulterior motives. I believe SP is currently too readily available and SP potions are one of the easiest and most convenient ways to provide SP. I believe that because the game uses finite SP as a balancing mechanic and we can bypass that mechanic too easily.

What I'm attempting to do here is bring reason, balance, and critical thinking to the discussion to try to nullify the hyperbole, emotional blackmailing, psychological bullying, and other irrational tactics being used by BOTH sides in an attempt to look cooler and righter than their opposition.

It's not about who's cooler, more-elite, or more awesome as a person. It's about one simple thing: Are the negatives inherent to the current status of sp potions sufficient to justify a re-evaluation of that status and the investment of developer time and effort to develop and implement a change? I don't feel that there is sufficient justification for changing them at this time, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I've just not seen anything yet which convinces me otherwise.

People need to get their egos and emotions out of the way and look at this rationally. When they learn to do that, we might get somewhere.

At least YOU were able to do this and speak with me like a rational human, and for that I thank you. I think that it will be difficult for either you or I to convince the other to change their perspective, because we both have thought our positions out pretty thoroughly. I respect your belief, even if I disagree.

I'll take that as a complement.

I actually expected the discussion to die down by now.

[cpito]

What happens to the fairly large number of players who like to solo (either exclusively or occasionally)? Even duos would be effected. Putting timers on sp pots would have a fairly serious effect on thier ability to complete much of the content (it would cost duos much more time and xp to complete) and eliminate the possibility of them attempting most raids.

[Zuka]

I completely disagree, if you want to burn through your pots I'm all for it, I don't spend money on pots, I only use what I find and if I burn through a lot in a run then I know something was horribly wrong with the party, usually I set a static limit on how many I am willing to use before just letting it fail, in a particularly hard run I might drink 4 or 5 pots and no more, in an easy run I had better not even want to hit the button I keep them on.

Quite simply I don't think there's anything wrong with an easy completion, if you don't want an easy run don't bring any full divines into your next elite ToD, but even then you might find your run is not that challenging, true enough that pay to win is creeping up more and more, but the end game runners will tell you there's a surprising amount of very competent players running the 20+ content, you just have to be discerning when building your group.

If your healer goes through a pot or two offer to reimburse them with the ones you've picked up and been saving for just such an occasion, if they say no then that's their call. We're not talking about a true pay to win situation here, that would be letting people just go out and buy their raid gear to skip an undesirable HoX or VoD or ToD or DQ, etc. This is more pay not to fail, or for that matter, save up and go nuts in the case of the many many of us who don't see the point in store pots at all. When I'm healing a group if I run out of pots (or have used as many as I planned on allowing) well then tough.

[Tirisha]

No I didn't say SP pots were keeping people playing this game... But limiting them will IMO impact some players, causing at least some to give up on some content. It will be one more nail in the coffin...... You might read what I've said a little more carefully, because your conclusions to what I'm saying are incrorrect.

Keeping SP potions as is, impacts almost nobody... Changing them would impact far more. There is no tangible benefit in changing them. The idea put forth that putting them on a timer will force people to learn to play better, is a dream, a fantasy....

Even if this game were to lose 1,000 subs because of a change like this.... Well that would be bad.. It can't afford to lose ANY subs... Except for the ones of people trying to inflict their particular playstyle on everyone... And I dont' think saying that some number of people would leave the game if they limited potions is unreasonable at all... It may not be a big exodus... In fact I doubt it would be. But over time it would end up having an effect on the playerbase totals.. I'm sure of it......

Sry if I misinterpreted your post but as you can see

A change like this will only lead to fewer players playing... A LOT fewer players, sure they will be better players.. But....

It wasn't entirely unreasonable to conclude that you believe that SP pots keep people in game or nerfing them would drive them away.

I simply believe that this is inaccurate I don't believe anybody would leave the game over a change like this and ultimately I believe a more balanced game would lead to more enjoyment by the vast majority and a larger subscription base.

[smatt]

Sry if I misinterpreted your post but as you can see

It wasn't entirely unreasonable to conclude that you believe that SP pots keep people in game or nerfing them would drive them away.

I simply believe that this is inaccurate I don't believe anybody would leave the game over a change like this and ultimately I believe a more balanced game would lead to more enjoyment by the vast majority and a larger subscription base.

No, I don't think A LOT of current players will leave.. I think the issue will be with new players.... And I guess you would have to take that individual sentence, and wrap around all the other stuff I've said with it, to get the full context. They will find playing casters too cumbersome.... This game is barely struggling along now, when it was a more difficult game it was failing. The only way they've kept the new subscriptions coming in is by continually dumbing it down or rather making it easier offering more and more easy options. The idea that taking it the other way will be some kind of magic bullet.... Nope.... Somehow the timer on SP pots peopel think by making teh task of playign a caster harder at this poitn in the games life will bring in new players... LOL

Will it affect me.. A bit I suppose, it woudl make levelign a bit slower since I would have to actualyl stop at shrines in some quests that I normally blow through with a couple pots... As far as 'm concerned it's just not a change for the good overall.... As a nohter sai dback there a few posts... Change this and youwould have to cahnge a bunch of other things as well for "balance". Inclduing melees doing unlimited and continual damage with their way over-powered weapons and ED's....

[Drekisen]

Timers on SP potions will greatly change the game......you are talking about a lot of other aspects of the game needing to be revamped as well then.

It's not going to be as simple as just putting a timer on SP potions.

A major obvious point is that they are not going to put timers on store bought potions.....that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

So I think this should really be put to rest because if they did put a timer on anything it will be the in-game potions....why should the players who actually play to win suffer because of the sloppy carefree playstyle of those who pay to win.

All you guys are doing with this is hurting the real players.....I would not quit over something like this but I would immediately blacklist any player I knew who supported such a change.

The only way I will be ok with this is if they put in passive regen.....any game with lengthy potion cooldowns also has that feature.

And I will never be ok with ingame SP potions being hit with this restriction and store bought ones not having it.....that's if anything a punishment to actual players.

[Eme]

im not even a caster and i can see how absurd limiting pot use it.

'stop everyone, need to wait for pot timer',.... hang on guys,, another minute.'

so NOT signed

[Manatha]

Timers on SP potions will greatly change the game......you are talking about a lot of other aspects of the game needing to be revamped as well then.

It's not going to be as simple as just putting a timer on SP potions.

A major obvious point is that they are not going to put timers on store bought potions.....that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

So I think this should really be put to rest because if they did put a timer on anything it will be the in-game potions....why should the players who actually play to win suffer because of the sloppy carefree playstyle of those who pay to win.

All you guys are doing with this is hurting the real players.....I would not quit over something like this but I would immediately blacklist any player I knew who supported such a change.

The only way I will be ok with this is if they put in passive regen.....any game with lengthy potion cooldowns also has that feature.

And I will never be ok with ingame SP potions being hit with this restriction and store bought ones not having it.....that's if anything a punishment to actual players.

You nailed it for me.

Here's my take on it (and my situation)

I don't use SP pots for the majority of quests, generally, if I start slamming SP pots like they're going out of style, I'm also snickering quietly in the background going 'This is a train wreck, lets see how many more times they die!'. Or I'm really REALLY determined to get the quest done so I never have to come back (that life).

Every other MMO I've been in has had the option of using a cheap and easy to get regen item, or has had very high HP/SP regen between fights built in - often with some regen appearing even in combat (reffer to LoTRO which was also done by Turbine for one of the games with reduced regen in battle, full regen outside of it).

Those other MMOs have had cooldowns on the SP/HP potions, often with both potions being on the same timer - and the potions either being dropped, or crafted.

I currently sit on a bit more than 150 of the major potions, I may even be up to 200... because I do not use them unless I really feel the need (or it fufils entertaining me).

I've done quite a few of the EEs with no SP pots used as a healer, and I've done some Elites where I slammed them non-stop. Where no one bothered to carry their own HP pots and waited till they were low on hp and then started screaming for heals. This is generally with them having seen that they and the other melee/casters in group that didnt bother to grab HP potions are all low health - with my divine running circles with everything on her. Usually this is with at least 1-2 classes that could be tanks that couldnt be bothered to have ac above a mage's, much less have the ability to get the creature's interest off the squishies.

My opinion is that if you need to slam potions to finish EE/EH content, you're needing a more balanced/less careless group. I have never needed to, and I am not willing to potion slam because others are not doing what they should be in group. However, if you're willing to run and slam potions and spend tons in game and through TP.... more power to you. I hate this type of group.

That said, I will use potions for raids, especially when I feel I might be failing at SP management (overhealing because it looks like the other healer isnt going to make it on the cast).

[Sonos]

You nailed it for me.


I don't use SP pots for the majority of quests, generally, if I start slamming SP pots like they're going out of style, I'm also snickering quietly in the background going 'This is a train wreck, lets see how many more times they die!'. Or I'm really REALLY determined to get the quest done so I never have to come back (that life).

Another great point. Either you are playing with guildies and channel mates or you are pugging it. For me and quite a few others, it's a hybrid of all three.

Sometimes you'll have to drink. Either that or squelch a huge percentage of players because you can't keep repeating some of those quests when you are TRing, you are on the move.

I just see more alienation, less LFMs or more restricting ones.

I say restrict your own party if you must but don't make the whole community play to your lofty ideals.

[Llewndyn]

If it bothers you then you could just refrain from drinking so many SP pots. It really can be resisted.

If I want to guzzle pots and have a slugfest who are you to tell me I can't? Instead of changing the game for everyone so that you can make stuff harder for you, why don't YOU just stop drinking potions? There can only be a few reasons you made this post:

1. A caster outkilled your TOTALLY AWSUM melee and had to drink a few potions to do so. Do you not know you are all on the same side? That it doesn't matter who kills the most because they do not get more XP for doing that? I can see no reason in this scenario to make it TOUGHER for them to be helpful to you. Maybe they would have more SP if they didn't bother buffing you up. Why don't you stop asking for buffs and then they won't have to use pots?

2. You are a caster and you had to drink pots and are passive aggressively annoyed because no one paid you back but are too much of a wimp to put your foot down so you want it changed so you can say "Well I WANTED to heal but...ya know...timers...."

3. You don't want newer people to be able to get through content so you can feel like a winner, at least in-game... your social inadequacies, though sad, are not a reason to ruin other's gaming enjoyment.

Here's a thought: If you don't like people drinking potions, go kill stuff faster so they won't have to. If they drink them too fast for you, /squelch them and don't run with them anymore. If the game is too easy for you, LEAVE. Good riddance, and take those that think like you with you. I am sure enough people who like this game even with the bugs will fill in the void you leave behind and we will muddle through. I will personally donate TP to get a little shrine put up to people like you in that little fountain area in Marketplace by the Catacombs: "Here we give homage to those who were too uber for this game"...

With the advent of bravery bonuses and no one EVER running anything on normal, your choices are solo the entire time and figure it out on your own but you better know how to run stuff the way "it's always been done" by the time you join raids and such, or you have to do stuff that on a first and second lifer you are woefully underprepared for. When you are unprepared or new to the game, you go through resources faster. This includes mana potions. Making people go on an arbitrary timer is mean and frankly (no offense to you) not a very intelligent idea. Once they get through some time in the game, the mana pot usage thing will work itself out on it's own. Did you know not EVERYONE starts out with a TR cache? It's true! Some people you run with are 28 point builds and have were NOT here from beta! I promise I ain't lyin'!

PS - fair's fair. If the game is too easy with no timer for mana pot usage, make it the same for Health potions, since most of the time mana is being used.....to give other players more health.

[MrkGrismer]

The fact that are not factored in is why they reduce challenge for those who can afford more of them. The dev's not factoring them into the equation has no bearing on the fact they can make content meant to be challenging easier.

I am reading the thread and I don't see how anyone has demonstrated that a stack of SP in the hands of someone with the gear to use it is not overpowered. The dev's choosing not to take that into consideration is simply a choice to balance based on no pots and would make it easier by using more potions.

The thing is there is a long list of things that 'reduce challenge for those that can afford more of them'. Or that are 'in the hands of somebody equipped to use them overpowered'. Green steel, clickie's, favor items, etc. All of those things 'reduce challenge' for those that can afford to spend the time to grind them. That's the bloody point.

People grind content in order to get phat lewt and xp to make their characters better so that it is easier to grind content (or at least hopefully less of a grind).

If you want 'moar challenge' to your content, there is a long list of ways you can make the content more challenging for yourself. There is really no need to ask for the devs to remove things that 'reduce challenge' for other people that they have spent time and/or money to get.

[eonfreon]

I believe SP is currently too readily available and SP potions are one of the easiest and most convenient ways to provide SP. I believe that because the game uses finite SP as a balancing mechanic and we can bypass that mechanic too easily.

I think the game once tried to use finite SP as a balancing mechanic and that it was not a very satisfactory way to achieve balance in the quests between classes' abilities nor too much fun for the players.
So I think the developers have tried to evolve the game away from finite SP as a real balancing factor. Echoes and all of the other ways of regaining SP seem to point in that direction.
I also don't like store SP pots, but for another reason. I think the Devs could have balanced SP and damage of all the various classes alot better if they didn't fear making SP pots obsolete and cutting themselves away from that revenue.

If mana pots are changed, the Devs will really have to restructure alot of the game. If pots have timers and the Devs start to factor them into how players can or can't complete quests, then they'll have to make the pots available at vendors at the very least.

And then what will they do with all the pots in the store? Or all the ones already paid for? Will those be without timers?

I don't think it'll be as easy as slap a timer on pots and call it good. A lot of careful thought will have to be put into it. It can't be changed just because a segment of the gamers think it makes the game too easy.