It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Qhualor]

LOL, not it's not.. It's the same circular arguement....

He claims "game balance"..... There hasn't been game balance in this game for years. Resource management flew out the window long ago, even before the DDO store. It's totally non-existant now. IF a player or group of players choses to play the resource management game, great cool for them.

He claims that others "require" or "expect" him to drink pots on his casting classes. Well, I guess he should choose who he groups with a little better than. Or he could just say "Sorry all out, do you have any to give me?" Or maybe HE should learn to use HIS resources better, depending on the group he joins, so that HE doesn't run out of his very own resources. Apparently some people have their very own issues with their very own SP pool.... Look inward I say, look inward....

I still say to the people who think SP should be put on timer... I guess the WAY too paowerful epic destinies should be removed or timered MORE. The WAY too powerful unlimited super-weapons of today should go on timer after 50k damage. Hirelings, especially the gold seal one... Gone...

i was simply agreeing with him. i thought he made a strong case with Sonos. im not sure about resource management pre-store because i was not playing then, but since store inception (i started playing a month or 2 before), resource management can be controlled with that and in game resources. it actually depends on player to player because not all play the same.

[Mubjon]

Better healing potions can be bought in the store too.
SP potions don't take real money to acquire in the first place.
300 SP does so much more than simply healing what a cure potion from a vendor in game does.
It doesn't actually require unlimited supplies of SP potions to make a significant difference.

Show me where I can get an SP pot for less than 1K plat that gives more than 10 SP per shot.

The true game breaking pots are the cure pots that are purchasable by every single vendor in the game. SP pots, however, are only received through end of quest rewards, chest drops and the store. Hardly, easily accessible compared to cure pots.

And I am not sure about you, but for the same amount of health returned for that cure pot I can get as much damage from my melee as I can in the same amount of SP spent on a spell. IE 30 HP returned is as much damage as drinking the same size 30 SP pot.

The difference is that I cannot go to a vendor and get an SP pot for just a handful of plat.

[smatt]

i was simply agreeing with him. i thought he made a strong case with Sonos. im not sure about resource management pre-store because i was not playing then, but since store inception (i started playing a month or 2 before), resource management can be controlled with that and in game resources. it actually depends on player to player because not all play the same.

Indeed, now what exactly his agenda is I don't know... It seems he's more worried about other players expecting him to drink SP pots, perhasp since these others don't play all that well. And is possibly worried about game balance, since casters with this mythical unlimited SP break the game. Well if you timer pots, remove them altogether or whatever then perhaps they should go back to when you couldn't EVER re-enter a quest, unless you compeltely restart it, quest re-entry allows for unlimited SP. No hirelings at all, since cleric hirelings have DV's, they equal unlimited SP.

I mean heck, if he's so worried about game balance, perhaps they should limit the amount of casters a party can have.... You can't tell me that a prty full of casters can't destroy the vast majority of quests in this game than any other party make-up MUCH faster....

I can go on and on...

This is like telling a bar.... You have to put a limit on how many hard drinks people have, but they can have all the wine and beer they want. I'm not sure how long this Asharym has been playing since forum join dates are meaningless.... But looking at how the game has changed since I started 6 years ago, when the game was 9 months live... Well, IMO a change as is proposed wouldn't do anything but annoy some players, discourage others, and make a couple happy because they won a meaningless discussion, and screwed up a game even more , putting even more limitation on it's already VERY small player base. The idea it would balance anything is crazy talk....

Madmatt has another agenda altogether...

[Mubjon]

I don't think I've chosen to ignore them. I might have missed them in all the "what's it to you how I play" feedback that I see permeating the thread instead, or number posts calling players who request a change whiners instead of stating why they are good for the game.

So, in a summary, why do you think abundant SP potions are good for the game, and how are you refuting my stance on SP potions bypassing game restrictions and can over power characters during the times they do choose to drink several to sustain SP?

SP pots bypass the game restrictions as much as cure pots bypass the game restrictions.

SP pots are good for the game because they provide someone with the fun they are seeking and in the case of these SP pots are a great source of income for the game to keep it going.

[Drekisen]

In the end the great will still prevail and the lazy will still s*ck.....honestly I don't even care either way...not to sound arrogant but I am in the prior group...so whatever.

[smatt]

[QUOTE=Mubjon;4792381]SP pots bypass the game restrictions as much as cure pots bypass the game restrictions. [/qoute] As does quest re-rentry, shrines, hirelings.....

SP pots are good for the game because they provide someone with the fun they are seeking and in the case of these SP pots are a great source of income for the game to keep it going.

Yep....

[Aashrym]

How isnt it good for the game is a better question.

Have these mythical unlimited pot drinkers wreaked havoc on the endgame?

How isn't it good for the game isn't a better question. It's more misdirection to simply not answer the question. I also didn't state unlimited pots. That's a strawman.

The answer, however, is still that powerful abilities can be used more frequently and more often with SP potions and those powerful abilities can impact game balance while at the same time bypassing the class SP limitation mechanic. I posted an answer to you question.

[Aashrym]

He claims "game balance"..... There hasn't been game balance in this game for years. Resource management flew out the window long ago, even before the DDO store. It's totally non-existant now. IF a player or group of players choses to play the resource management game, great cool for them.

And yet other nerfs continue to happen in for balance reasons. You claim it doesn't exist but clearly the intention for some balance is there.

[Aashrym]

Show me where I can get an SP pot for less than 1K plat that gives more than 10 SP per shot.

Do you want a picture of a barrel? The drop in breakables now.
Or a list of quests where they can appear in end rewards that are fast for farming?

Neither costs plat.

[Qhualor]

SP pots bypass the game restrictions as much as cure pots bypass the game restrictions.

SP pots are good for the game because they provide someone with the fun they are seeking and in the case of these SP pots are a great source of income for the game to keep it going.

without cure pots, we would all be playing blue bar classes. regen like in pnp is pretty much non existant in DDO, other than public places and gear that gives back a few hp/sp when hit or when you hit. we would be going back to the "nead healer" lfms. not that we dont have them still, but i think you know what i mean.

3 years prior to the store, players were somehow getting healed. droprates were much lower for sp pots too. as others have pointed out, F2P and DDO store is what has helped boost profits for the game. game restrictions doesnt bring enough profit to a company that is trying to keep it going, so the hard part is somehow maintaining balance, along with fun that a majority will agree with and continue to make profit.

[smatt]

How isn't it good for the game isn't a better question. It's more misdirection to simply not answer the question. I also didn't state unlimited pots. That's a strawman.

The answer, however, is still that powerful abilities can be used more frequently and more often with SP potions and those powerful abilities can impact game balance while at the same time bypassing the class SP limitation mechanic. I posted an answer to you question.

So how exactly woudl this change game balance? Oh wait it would simply make things a bit harder for a few, a bit longer for a few, and more annoying for more than a few... Other than that it wouldn't do a darned thing for game balance at all. Short of complete removal that is.... That would certainly change things... For the worse to be sure....

[Tirisha]

SP pots bypass the game restrictions as much as cure pots bypass the game restrictions.

this comparison is very weak. Spell points are' meant to balance the power of spells. HP is meant to be cured. SP pots break the balance factor of SP limiting spells, Cure pots certainly does not break the balance of HP being cured.

[Tirisha]

So how exactly woudl this change game balance? Oh wait it would simply make things a bit harder for a few, a bit longer for a few, and more annoying for more than a few... Other than that it wouldn't do a darned thing for game balance at all. Short of complete removal that is.... That would certainly change things... For the worse to be sure....

I know a few experienced players who tackle EELOB would have to improve to complete the same task and would certainly have to master the raid to complete it frequently.

I know a lot of inexperienced players who would be encouraged to learn how to play their class effectively.

I know I would actually have to consider whether I would be better off bringing my monk to a quest or my sorc.

[Pape_27]

How isn't it good for the game isn't a better question. It's more misdirection to simply not answer the question. I also didn't state unlimited pots. That's a strawman.

The answer, however, is still that powerful abilities can be used more frequently and more often with SP potions and those powerful abilities can impact game balance while at the same time bypassing the class SP limitation mechanic. I posted an answer to you question.

Oh contraire. It is not a strawman in any way shape or form.

and in light oh whats currentlly available in game with epic levels and supercharged levels of sp, your entire argument is specious at best. That does way more to upset the so called game balance than sp pot useage without restriction.

[redoubt]

LOL, not it's not.. It's the same circular arguement....

He claims "game balance"..... There hasn't been game balance in this game for years. Resource management flew out the window long ago, even before the DDO store. It's totally non-existant now. IF a player or group of players choses to play the resource management game, great cool for them.

He claims that others "require" or "expect" him to drink pots on his casting classes. Well, I guess he should choose who he groups with a little better than. Or he could just say "Sorry all out, do you have any to give me?" Or maybe HE should learn to use HIS resources better, depending on the group he joins, so that HE doesn't run out of his very own resources. Apparently some people have their very own issues with their very own SP pool.... Look inward I say, look inward....

I still say to the people who think SP should be put on timer... I guess the WAY too paowerful epic destinies should be removed or timered MORE. The WAY too powerful unlimited super-weapons of today should go on timer after 50k damage. Hirelings, especially the gold seal one... Gone...

Hyperbole much?

[smatt]

I know a few experienced players who tackle EELOB would have to improve to complete the same task and would certainly have to master the raid to complete it frequently.

I know a lot of inexperienced players who would be encouraged to learn how to play their class effectively.

I know I would actually have to consider whether I would be better off bringing my monk to a quest or my sorc.

Oh I understand the theory that by limiting SP pot usage it will somehow increase player skill game wide. And that might've been the case a few years back, in the long run. BUt at this point in the games life, and given the player popluation and it's make up... A change like this will only lead to fewer players playing... A LOT fewer players, sure they will be better players.. But....

[smatt]

Hyperbole much?

Do you have your Ebelstink hat on again?

[Tirisha]

Oh I understand the theory that by limiting SP pot usage it will somehow increase player skill game wide. And that might've been the case a few years back, in the long run. BUt at this point in the games life, and given the player popluation and it's make up... A change like this will only lead to fewer players playing... A LOT fewer players, sure they will be better players.. But....

I really don't think that SP pots are keeping anybody in game. Nerfs are a hard thing to deal with but they happen almost every U and with reason. Players learn to deal with these nerfs or they simply avoid MMOs altogether.

Saying people need SP pots to play this game is unreasonable and saying that a noticeable group of people would leave the game if they were nerfed is equally unreasonable.

[Aashrym]

SP pots bypass the game restrictions as much as cure pots bypass the game restrictions.

SP pots are good for the game because they provide someone with the fun they are seeking and in the case of these SP pots are a great source of income for the game to keep it going.

healing is a game mechanic powered by SP used for healing spells and CSW potions don't increase anyone's offensive abilities where SP allow for meta's longer for an actual higher DPS. if CSW potions bypass the hp limits then SP potions bypass the SP limits plus the hp limits would still be far more the CSW potions.

fun things can still be over powered and get changed because of balance concerns -- see wail for an example

SP pots are found in game at no cost by farming them and their specific use does not mean they were purchased nor do we actually know if SP potions are a great source of income or a small source of income; that part is assumptive

[Aashrym]

Oh contraire. It is not a strawman in any way shape or form.

and in light oh whats currentlly available in game with epic levels and supercharged levels of sp, your entire argument is specious at best. That does way more to upset the so called game balance than sp pot useage without restriction.

Arguing against something I didn't say why I called it a strawman. I'm not claiming unlimited pots in my posts; I'm claiming easy access to them for when desired.