A calm discussion regarding Divines

[Dingleburr]

This may be true of a DC oriented healer but is simply not true for a melee oriented healer because you can't have appropriate spell boosting power on a melee build. Devotion items that are not on wpns are rarer than +3 tomes. The highest I've seen is a devotion 96 Hat which is still only 48% to the heal spell at min lv 22 versus the 50% I'm used to getting at lv 20 not counting metas.

Most people are forced to use worse devotion items since they simply just don't drop.

I play a 19CLR/1FTR battlecleric, and I don't agree. The ability to make appropriate tradeoffs is what separates the exceptional players from the rest. I like the fact that it's now difficult to simultaneously optimize for all roles. That's the main reason why FVS have been the master class for so long - just grind out the right gear and there are no compromises. It's different post U14. Adapt and overcome.

I don't really get why 'healers' believe they need to have >100 devotion + 18 implement + 12% lore active at all times to heal sufficiently. For my part, I've been able to heal through the majority of normal / hard content with 72 devotion + 9% lore.

Sure, there's elite content and the occasional hard encounter where I need devote my full focus to healing. If the content is difficult or focused enough to require a dedicated healer, then I'm not really multitasking anyway. In that situation, I whip out the (scroll + healing stick) or (healing stick + shield) combo. Problem solved.

[azmodeus1]

"because of these things Melee Healers got nerfed hard, not just in the fact that they are doing less than what they did do, but their healing doesn't advance through epic levels like DC healers."


this is simply not true, twist in healing from AoV and/or the t3 sentinal i have no problems keeping people up with masses while swinging an esos. and im a 18fvs/2ftr, metas active are empower healing and quicken.

my horc healer is better than ever, getting 1200+ crits and doing massive amounts more dmg than before the xpac.

ive never bought a sp pot.

devs, you should leave divines as is, we are already overpowered in many ways, my other healer is a 18fvs/2mo using EiN with high evo dc, and is a blast to play.

[DeafeningWhisper]

"because of these things Melee Healers got nerfed hard, not just in the fact that they are doing less than what they did do, but their healing doesn't advance through epic levels like DC healers."


this is simply not true, twist in healing from AoV and/or the t3 sentinal i have no problems keeping people up with masses while swinging an esos. and im a 18fvs/2ftr, metas active are empower healing and quicken.

That's nice, now tell me how you would compensate for the weaker Heal and low devotion items that can't be weapons (because as you say you're melee) between level 11 to 19.

my horc healer is better than ever, getting 1200+ crits and doing massive amounts more dmg than before the xpac.

ive never bought a sp pot.

devs, you should leave divines as is, we are already overpowered in many ways, my other healer is a 18fvs/2mo using EiN with high evo dc, and is a blast to play.

Again, once you level in destinies you catch up to your old power and get even more, but only then, the game IS more then 5 lvls...

You seem to have the same view as the devs, DDO is played from lvl 21 to 25, inclusively.

[ShadowFlash]

1st: Regarding Spell Power and Heal.
I highly suggest reading the extensive work DarkForte put into this post.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=83
It's the most comprehensive proof/breakdown of the issue I've seen. Gearing is irrelevant.
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2nd: Monk-splashes
AC is now a factor in this game for everyone, which is a huge change to the system. Those 2 levels of monk common to many cleric builds now have a substantial weak side. Caster Clerics come out of it a tad better as they still maintain WIS to AC. Melee clerics (WIS dumped) got hurt real bad from this. Well, we never had AC before, and still don't now, so how is this a nerf?

Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.

Which pretty clearly tells us that now the new PRR, AC, and Dodge System is being used as a balancing tool for both damage mitigation (read:mob damage) and incoming healing. A two level monk splashed cleric has none of these tools available to it. Get hit more...get hit harder...and heal less...triple whammy.

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3rd: Epic Destinies
EA....This one is just personal opinion, but I find alternating between light and positive energy to stack charges in such a way to boost the opposing abilities while working up to a moment that's the general equivalent of a short term pale master form cumbersome at best. Moreso, with the new emphasis on cycling weaker cure spells while keeping a party up combined with any off-healing fun wanted, is just way to busy to manage.

US....At first glance it looks like the default melee divine destiny, but I actually like EA better for that purpose. WF LoB FvS's I've heard enjoy it, but that's a pretty specific build. I would call it a paladin destiny mostly, and it does look decent for that purpose at least.

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Lastly:
There's a lot of good stuff going on with the expansion, it's not all doom-and-gloom. With that in mind, I simply have no desire to altar my playstyle/concept of a melee cleric, when I can simply enjoy the expansion with another class and ED's that weren't forced to undergo all of these changes, and can actually progress in power rather than grind really hard to tread water on a divine.

ShadowFlash

[tasebro]

...There's a lot of good stuff going on with the expansion, it's not all doom-and-gloom. With that in mind, I simply have no desire to altar my playstyle/concept of a melee cleric, when I can simply enjoy the expansion with another class and ED's that weren't forced to undergo all of these changes, and can actually progress in power rather than grind really hard to tread water on a divine...

I agree.
Grinding really hard just to end up treading water is neither "fun", nor is it "awesome". It is just lame -- a waste of time, given the more viable alternatives that we have to choose from.

[Raithe]

Is your cleric a DC healer or a Melee healer?

Yes?

I only allow 4 weapons, a shield, and 2 carried in hand on any of my characters. Even with those limitations, I carry melee and caster sticks on all my arcanes/divines, and sometimes I carry caster sticks on my otherwise strickly melee/ranged.

The developers don't know how each individual person plays. Personally, I would have considered it extremely normal to be switching sticks as a caster cleric, let alone a melee-focused one. My sorc carries sticks of:

1) impulse (+102) of superior kinetic lore
2) combustion (+108) of enchantment mastery (greater ench, spell pen ix)
3) triple positive greensteel light mace (raise dead, greater disruption, holy)
4) cormyrian sceptre (acid burst, stunning +10, superior parrying, ...)
5) ornamental dagger (greater arcane lore, maximize efficiency & clicky)

plus an improved shattermantle dart (the least used).

I understand that switching sticks in the middle of battle can be a no-go, but I think that was precisely one of the motivations behind the spellpower changes. I would like to have impulse and devotion on my worn items, as well as combustion 90 and magnetism 90. I have to make a choice, though.

That's the point.

[danotmano1998]

My devotion item gives me nothing but Devotion. A DC casters has a generous amount of quality effects + higher devotion bonus than I can resonably find.

On my cleric I have a drow weapon master battleaxe that I equip when I want to hit things, and 2 caster sticks. One has devotion and other healing goodness, one has radiance.

Depending on what I'm doing, I equip the appropriate item. It's not fun to have to do this, IMO, but it IS possible.

Doing raid healing? Grab your devotion stick and put away the axe.
Doing DPS? Grab your weapon and start smacking things.
Doing offensive/defensive casting? Equip item of choice and start casting.

Swap as needed. Can you not do this as well?
You could even get fancy and have one item in one hand and something else in your off hand based on your current needs.

[Thrudh]

The highest I've seen is a devotion 96 Hat which is still only 48% to the heal spell at min lv 22 versus the 50% I'm used to getting at lv 20 not counting metas.

Most people are forced to use worse devotion items since they simply just don't drop.

because of these things Melee Healers got nerfed hard, not just in the fact that they are doing less than what they did do, but their healing doesn't advance through epic levels like DC healers.

48% instead of 50% is not "nerfed hard". I find my FvS has no problem healing the members of his party.

That said, I'm all for more wearable devotion gear. One thing that would be nice (and easy) is for the devs to go back and fix the values on the various wearable epic gear that has devotion on it.

[deahamlet]

On my cleric I have a drow weapon master battleaxe that I equip when I want to hit things, and 2 caster sticks. One has devotion and other healing goodness, one has radiance.

Depending on what I'm doing, I equip the appropriate item. It's not fun to have to do this, IMO, but it IS possible.

Doing raid healing? Grab your devotion stick and put away the axe.
Doing DPS? Grab your weapon and start smacking things.
Doing offensive/defensive casting? Equip item of choice and start casting.

Swap as needed. Can you not do this as well?
You could even get fancy and have one item in one hand and something else in your off hand based on your current needs.

Why do I have to only heal in raids? Used to be able to do my dps and heal which adds more to a party and is simply more fun than mass heals and cures. Mass heal already detracts with the casting time why add more dead time swapping weapons back and forth.

You are not going to convince people to keep swapping around or just heal.. What you will get is a draught of divines.
If without the heal sticks my healing is insufficient, I don't change to more annoying tactics... I simply move on. Self-sufficient melee for friends or solo and everyone else can just learn to self-heal. My passion is not sitting there spamming mass healing spells... so I will never choose to play that way. If Turbine wants me to pick between healing ability and only heals in raids and play how I want but don't raid... I will simply choose not to raid on my divine. It is that simple.

You all say "adapt". I can adapt that way. I will not adapt to being relegated to constant annoying swapping or healbotting.

[Thrudh]

I play a 19CLR/1FTR battlecleric, and I don't agree. The ability to make appropriate tradeoffs is what separates the exceptional players from the rest. I like the fact that it's now difficult to simultaneously optimize for all roles. That's the main reason why FVS have been the master class for so long - just grind out the right gear and there are no compromises. It's different post U14. Adapt and overcome.

I don't really get why 'healers' believe they need to have >100 devotion + 18 implement + 12% lore active at all times to heal sufficiently. For my part, I've been able to heal through the majority of normal / hard content with 72 devotion + 9% lore.

This.

It's not as important to max out heals as it is damage spells. The vets are so used to having the best everything, they feel gimp when using a 96 devotion item when 108 devotion items exist.

But you aren't gimp. 96 devotion is plenty good.

With the Holy symbol of Lloth and a good devotion helm, you can use any weapon you want and still heal everyone just fine, and have solid blade barriers and DP DoTs.

Sure, there's elite content and the occasional hard encounter where I need devote my full focus to healing. If the content is difficult or focused enough to require a dedicated healer, then I'm not really multitasking anyway. In that situation, I whip out the (scroll + healing stick) or (healing stick + shield) combo. Problem solved.

Yep, in an elite raid, I may have to change my inventory and my role a little. Is that really so bad?

[Saravis]

Yes?

I only allow 4 weapons, a shield, and 2 carried in hand on any of my characters. Even with those limitations, I carry melee and caster sticks on all my arcanes/divines, and sometimes I carry caster sticks on my otherwise strickly melee/ranged.

The developers don't know how each individual person plays. Personally, I would have considered it extremely normal to be switching sticks as a caster cleric, let alone a melee-focused one. My sorc carries sticks of:

1) impulse (+102) of superior kinetic lore
2) combustion (+108) of enchantment mastery (greater ench, spell pen ix)
3) triple positive greensteel light mace (raise dead, greater disruption, holy)
4) cormyrian sceptre (acid burst, stunning +10, superior parrying, ...)
5) ornamental dagger (greater arcane lore, maximize efficiency & clicky)

plus an improved shattermantle dart (the least used).

I understand that switching sticks in the middle of battle can be a no-go, but I think that was precisely one of the motivations behind the spellpower changes. I would like to have impulse and devotion on my worn items, as well as combustion 90 and magnetism 90. I have to make a choice, though.

That's the point.

Oh, switching sticks around is extremely common on casters. I'm not going to use my superior lightning lore stick on ADQ. But thats not the point.

The point is that a melee divine has been hit hard by this change, if you want to be an effective healer you have to sacrifice your melee. Casters on the other hand don't have to worry about this, they can fit in their offensive and healing gear together without issue. While a caster simply has to switch his sticks around (still maintaining effective offensive ability), a melee has to drop their weapon in favor of better healing (killing all offensive ability)

[DeafeningWhisper]

Depending on what I'm doing, I equip the appropriate item. It's not fun to have to do this, IMO, but it IS possible.

That's the point of the thread: "It's not fun".

I don't know about you but I tend to play games to have fun, if playing a healer is not fun and it's a well known fact that Turbine balances content by limiting healers, how many new players do you think will roll divines to replace those who shelve theirs? Add the fact that divines are blamed for everything that goes wrong and are rarely given credit for the success of quests (it's always "The great dps" that wins the battle it seems) which is why many no longer pug and have gone anonymous.

ANY negative change, or change that can be taken as negative reduces the amount of healers which where already rare in pugs... For the live of me I don't know why Turbine never realised that.

[Thrudh]

The point is that a melee caster has been hit hard by this change, if you want to be an effective healer you have to sacrifice your melee.

I need some kind of proof that this statement is true.

I am an "effective" healer in every group I've been in, and I'm carrying around a Lit II greataxe. "Effective" healing doesn't require the best possible gear. I DID have to give up an inventory slot, which means one less slot I can use for melee bonuses, but I haven't had to give up my WEAPON, which I think most people are complaining about.

[danotmano1998]

That's the point of the thread: "It's not fun".

Sorry, I must have missed that in the OP..
What I read was "Hey divines have been nerfed!"
(Which we already know..)

and...

"There's a lack of devotion items that can be equipped in other places than hands."
(Which I agree with. But they *do* exist. Heck, maybe even more are coming our way soon!)

My points is that it IS possible to have max heals cast by *any* divine build that chooses to spec in the appropriate lines and have the appropriate gear on hand. Whether the person chooses to or not is another matter.

[danotmano1998]

Why do I have to only heal in raids? Used to be able to do my dps and heal which adds more to a party and is simply more fun than mass heals and cures. Mass heal already detracts with the casting time why add more dead time swapping weapons back and forth.

You are not going to convince people to keep swapping around or just heal.. What you will get is a draught of divines.
If without the heal sticks my healing is insufficient, I don't change to more annoying tactics... I simply move on. Self-sufficient melee for friends or solo and everyone else can just learn to self-heal. My passion is not sitting there spamming mass healing spells... so I will never choose to play that way. If Turbine wants me to pick between healing ability and only heals in raids and play how I want but don't raid... I will simply choose not to raid on my divine. It is that simple.

You all say "adapt". I can adapt that way. I will not adapt to being relegated to constant annoying swapping or healbotting.

You can choose to play any way you want to, as is your right. Even if that means not playing divines at all.

Or, you can choose to not bother swapping gear at all, and your heals will be less for it. Doesn't mean that it's not a valid choice. You can still heal, you're just choosing more dps over healing.

The heart of the spellpower change is that it makes you choose what your strengths and weaknesses are. Whereas before, you could heal max with a simple clickie, now you have to make a choice.

It's not the end of divines. It's the end of an era of thinking, and change is hard. Especially when it hits home on your favorite characters. I don't begrude anyone for getting upset over the changes, they are big ones, and take some getting used to.

[tekkentroop]

-My fundamental opinion in the heal SP nerf discussion is that its not really a big nerf, and that Im ok with it.

-On the other hand, the OP is actually right that good devotion items are pretty rare, and that the devotion values of current named items are less that satisfactory.

my fvs tries to solve the problem by using a blue scale combined with impulse/radiance 1-handers of evocation/necro mastery in attack mode, and a devotion 1-hander and some heal scrolls in raid healing mode. This costs me some healing spellpower in fighting mode, but attack is the best defense.

my vote: we need a make-over of old devotion (and actually most other spellpower) values on named items, and a better chance for spellpower on random rings/necks/shields. Spellpower rules are fine as they are, we have to go with the times.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Sorry, I must have missed that in the OP..
What I read was "Hey divines have been nerfed!"
(Which we already know..)

and...

"There's a lack of devotion items that can be equipped in other places than hands."
(Which I agree with. But they *do* exist. Heck, maybe even more are coming our way soon!)

My points is that it IS possible to have max heals cast by *any* divine build that chooses to spec in the appropriate lines and have the appropriate gear on hand. Whether the person chooses to or not is another matter.

Yeah, it just what you said echoed so perfectly what was said here:http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=386781

My mind assumed it was that thread.

My point stand thou, even you admit it's not fun, so why was that added at all? Any other class got less fun to play after U14? Any other class got less power that could be regained with destinies?
Not really, only divines to balance content around their ability to heal the party, God forbid they actually have to code smarter mobs or design challenging content, nope much easier to make sure those pesky divines have a harder time then before healing.


Hell they once again forgot us in the loot table, we are literally the only 2 classes that got an overall nerf.

I'll adapt sure, I won't like it and would like it to be fixed, that is all.

[susiedupfer]

I think to those of us who play divines, it hits too hard. To those who don't, it just does not matter, and they are tired of hearing us complain about it. I am completely confused by the lack of reaction from the melee. It may be that too many divines are utilizing too many resources in keeping parties going. This is unsustainable, and the result soon will be fewer divines willing to do this.

I really, truly feel that the lack of reaction from the Devs on this is very telling. We got one big, long post about how we were not "really" nerfed, and one big Q & A post. Nothing has been done other than being told it is WAI.

It leads me to believe that divines are being told that we can do ONE thing well from now on. We apparently get to choose what that one thing is, but just one thing. What I really do not grasp is WHY. Versatility is a cornerstone of DnD and DDO. This is truly not consistent with my previous experience of either.

I am trying my hardest to avoid pointing fingers at any other class, because I don't want this to degenerate into a childish argument. However, I know that the devs listened when other classes complained about certain recent proposed nerfs to their abilities. Do we not deserve, at the very least, a discussion as to why these changes were deemed necessary?

I do comprehend that increasing the efficacy of cure spells was a desired result as druids and other classes utilize cures to heal parties. Cures did indeed need a buff. They did a good thing for bards and druids.(I can speak to this as I have one of each.) What I fail to grasp is WHY Heal and Mass Heal needed downgrading to accomplish this end.

I do apologize for sort of sidetracking your thread.

[DeafeningWhisper]

my vote: we need a make-over of old devotion (and actually most other spellpower) values on named items, and a better chance for spellpower on random rings/necks/shields. Spellpower rules are fine as they are, we have to go with the times.

Saddly Feathers already said in beta that they are not coming back to Eberron epics to buff/balance them, they want us to use the new stuff so the old ones will remain as is.

Of course everyone and their cousin knows they'll nerf ESoS sooner or later, but a buff to old epics? Doubt it.

[ShadowFlash]

It's not the end of divines. It's the end of an era of thinking, and change is hard. Especially when it hits home on your favorite characters. I don't begrude anyone for getting upset over the changes, they are big ones, and take some getting used to.

Yep, this ^

I get a chuckle out of those claiming there will be a shortage of divines. Even if there was some sort of mass exodus, it would be temporary at most. Nature abhors a vacuum, and DDO is no different. What "may" happen, is certain builds and playstyles will fade away as the community adapts. Soon, there will be a new generation of divine's to fill the void left by the disgruntled, who won't need to adapt and overcome...they simply won't know any different.

ShadowFlash