A calm discussion regarding Divines

[Tirisha]

Well they have shown a "willingness" to put implement on gear other than weapons as demonstrated by the Holy Symbol of Lolth.

Even so I see no reason why a melee healer should be forced to slot implement when Caster healers get it for free.

It's also too small of a bonus to maximize healing on a melee healer.

I had already said it in another thread, I'd like for them to switch out nullification on the Lolth Symbol to Devotion, it would become the perfect divine item if they did that.

it would be nice but still less than Ideal *102 vs an easy 114 or slightly rarer 120*. The main issue for is that melee healers don't have level appropriate spell power available *120 at lv 25* which will mean they have no option but too heal less.

Not implying that I need maximized heals just saying I want it available to my build again and feel like there is no imbalance issue if it was.

[Saravis]

Even so I see no reason why a melee healer should be forced to slot implement when Caster healers get it for free.

It's also too small of a bonus to maximize healing on a melee healer.

Shrug, I really don't care for implement one way or the other, I'm just saying they do have a willingness to put it places other than a weapon.

it would be nice but still less than Ideal *102 vs an easy 114 or slightly rarer 120*. The main issue for is that melee healers don't have level appropriate spell power available *120 at lv 25* which will mean they have no option but too heal less.

Not implying that I need maximized heals just saying I want it available to my build again and feel like there is no imbalance issue if it was.

I'd consider it a step in the right direction, though. What with the best non-weapon devotion that you can is like 78. Sometimes the best that you can ask for is babysteps.

[Tirisha]

Shrug, I really don't care for implement one way or the other, I'm just saying they do have a willingness to put it places other than a weapon.



I'd consider it a step in the right direction, though. What with the best non-weapon devotion that you can is like 78. Sometimes the best that you can ask for is babysteps.

True.

I wish the symbol was a raid item and gave higher bonuses but I'll take what I can get.

[KillEveryone]

/sarcasm on gasp someone actually read the OP/sarcasm off



why? I don't understand why DC casters should be awarded extra spell power with Zero investment and not Melee casters.



I swap wpns to break DR or get some melee effect I want.

It's completely different than me swapping wpns to start healing. It's not acceptable for me because I'm always healing and I'm always in Melee: I don't see a justifiable reason why I should have to not melee to maximize my heals when I've spent 4 feats and countless APs and Epic Destiny points and Fate points (for twisting) too maximize it.

If they put devotion in more slots, you won't heal quite as well as one that is using a weapon that has a implement bonus. It really isn't that much of a difference. Currently the best implement bonus I have is a little better than a clicky.

Not all items have a implement bonus though which is what you are missing.

I still have to swap items around just like you to get the most out of my stuff. If I want that implement bonus, I have to give up on my kill power somewhere, DC, impulse, or radiance. Somewhere something is going to suffer because I don't and can't have it all on at the same time.

I'm not in full kill mode all the time. Only just recently scored a lucky random loot pull to get light and heal power on the same item, and even then, I'm not in full kill DC mode because I still have to swap to a item to be able to DC then back to a item to get my full healing power and it doesn't help when I'm blade barrier kiting some things because I then loose the impulse bonus to get a better DC.

This is why you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want to have full DPS, you need your weapon, you want to have full heal, you need to swap in a weapon(currently) to get that maxed.

I'm doing the exact same thing you are. You may be using different terms like saying you have to swap to a weapon to deal with DR or other melee effect but yes, currently you need to slot a weapon to get the most out of your heal, and yes I am doing the same exact thing you are to get the most out of my spells.

Here is what you should be doing...

Go to suggestions.

Make a post to put devotion on a wider variety of items. I would /sign that.

You won't heal quite as much as one that had to swap to their item to get that implement bonus but that person that had to swap to that implement bonus also is giving up something else.

[Tirisha]

If they put devotion in more slots, you won't heal quite as well as one that is using a weapon that has a implement bonus. It really isn't that much of a difference. Currently the best implement bonus I have is a little better than a clicky.

Not all items have a implement bonus though which is what you are missing.

I still have to swap items around just like you to get the most out of my stuff. If I want that implement bonus, I have to give up on my kill power somewhere, DC, impulse, or radiance. Somewhere something is going to suffer because I don't and can't have it all on at the same time.

I'm not in full kill mode all the time. Only just recently scored a lucky random loot pull to get light and heal power on the same item, and even then, I'm not in full kill DC mode because I still have to swap to a item to be able to DC then back to a item to get my full healing power and it doesn't help when I'm blade barrier kiting some things because I then loose the impulse bonus to get a better DC.

This is why you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want to have full DPS, you need your weapon, you want to have full heal, you need to swap in a weapon(currently) to get that maxed.

I'm doing the exact same thing you are. You may be using different terms like saying you have to swap to a weapon to deal with DR or other melee effect but yes, currently you need to slot a weapon to get the most out of your heal, and yes I am doing the same exact thing you are to get the most out of my spells.

swapping between 2 caster items or 2 melee items is different than swapping from melee item to caster item.

there is a very big difference between losing a couple of DC and losing the ability to melee.

you may have to decrease say your dps with light spells or BBs slightly but those spells will be able to do significant damage while you maintain maximized heals.

I don't mind sacrificing maxed str or the ravanger set to maximize my heal. what I do mind is not being able to reasonably melee and maximize my heals

All I'm asking for is the ability to use a DPS wpn *not do max dps* which is essential to doing melee at all (again I can care less if my DPS is min/max) while being able to maximize my heals.

Make a post to put devotion on a wider variety of items. I would /sign that.

This is one of the main points of the OP. though it's more towards having higher levels of devotion actually drop on something other than a wpn.

[Kmnh]

The devotion item is a fairly minor issue. 30 points of spell power won't make or break your build. If you are healing a raid tank, you should be using a devotion item in the offhand and a heal scroll on the main hand - It doesn't matter if you are a divine or some crazy multiclass shuriken thrower combo with UMD.


The real big issue is that there is no "easy" way to build a divine anymore. A wizard can level up as a magister and he will have a decent build, even if he doesn't know how to optimize it. Same goes for a fighter with dreadnought or a barbarian with Fury of the Wild. If you want to play a melee divine, your only real option is to go deep into other destinies, and do a ton of far away twists. If you want to play a DC-based offensive caster, there are no good options - you have to sacrifice caster level or DCs. The divine destinies are only playable for the healbots.

Besides that, the difference in healing between a melee divine that goes dreadnought and one that sticks to the exalted healbot is HUGE. The healbot is 25% ahead on his cures, because of the caster level.

Caster level should have never been tied to the destinies. The ability score destiny upgrades should allow picking from all 6.

[pseudomasochist]

I would like to know why you thing longsword weilding healers should heal less than DC focused healers. keep in mind DCs do not effect healing.

One reason could be melee doesn't require any SP aside from keeping Divine Favor/Power running. A melee cleric or FvS is able to contribute DPS without tapping into the resource they need to heal the party while casters must always be careful about using too much SP on offensive spells. Melee builds have a lot more SP to spare for healing.

I don't necessarily agree melee builds should have to sacrifice healing ability but that's my experience from playing caster and melee healers.

[pseudomasochist]

The real big issue is that there is no "easy" way to build a divine anymore. A wizard can level up as a magister and he will have a decent build, even if he doesn't know how to optimize it. Same goes for a fighter with dreadnought or a barbarian with Fury of the Wild. If you want to play a melee divine, your only real option is to go deep into other destinies, and do a ton of far away twists. If you want to play a DC-based offensive caster, there are no good options - you have to sacrifice caster level or DCs. The divine destinies are only playable for the healbots.

Besides that, the difference in healing between a melee divine that goes dreadnought and one that sticks to the exalted healbot is HUGE. The healbot is 25% ahead on his cures, because of the caster level.

Caster level should have never been tied to the destinies. The ability score destiny upgrades should allow picking from all 6.

Agree completely. My melee FvS hasn't seen much action since MotU and the caster is in no hurry to TR back from sorcerer because neither has anything to get excited about destiny-wise. That the melee build is TWF doesn't help either. The only thing Exalted Angel has going for it is the ability to kill PMs for giggles.

[Nyxianne]

Edited
/sign for more high lvls of devotion choices
/not signed on the melee fvs got more nerfed than the caster fvs - imo both are hit the same by this and both have to make the same sorts of sacrifices.

Btw I think a few steps have been made in the direction of more high lvls of devotion spellpower choices, there are now really nice random gen devotion handwraps (guildy has a pair with acid and 120 spellpower devotion) and the qstaves are some of the nicest random gen devotion and caster items in the game as far as I can tell.

[Ranncore]

The devotion item is a fairly minor issue.

this isnt a minor issue. they completely forgot about clerics when they made all the loot for motu, and then they nerfed all the eberron loot. its really, really lame that there's no gear for my cleric to quest for. its really stupid.

so far the best devotion item worth questing for is the sacred helm and band set - gives a whole 90 devotion. not as good as what i can get off the ah. and it doesnt even work right now - set bonuses are bugged.

so, i buy my stupid scepter off the AH so i can put away my lit2 or my epic timeblade, and im ready to go... do what? what does a cleric quest for now? im certainly not going into that money-trap raid. a boss that sucks spell points? give me a break. im not buying store pots for that ****. theres not even any loot in it for a divine!

[Ranncore]

Edited
/sign for more high lvls of devotion choices
/not signed on the melee fvs got more nerfed than the caster fvs - imo both are hit the same by this and both have to make the same sorts of sacrifices.

Btw I think a few steps have been made in the direction of more high lvls of devotion spellpower choices, there are now really nice random gen devotion handwraps (guildy has a pair with acid and 120 spellpower devotion) and the qstaves are some of the nicest random gen devotion and caster items in the game as far as I can tell.

look at any other class and tell me if they nicest items in the game for them are random lootgen.

[Kmnh]

look at any other class and tell me if they nicest items in the game for them are random lootgen.

Every wizard wants a random +8 int item so they can keep the litany on. Similarly for sorcerers and some divines.

Monks are very deep on the lootgen. Good named wraps are a recent addition. I bet that a pair of scintillating handrwaps of mauling or greater bane with a large guild augment would sell for a serious amount.

Most niche beaters are random. I would pay very well for a pair of banishing weapons of greater elemental bane for my rogue.

[SirValentine]

I don't really get why 'healers' believe they need to have >100 devotion + 18 implement + 12% lore active at all times to heal sufficiently.

Because the devs have said we do. "You're not nerfed, you just have to go equip 100+ devotion and 18 implement, and your Heal will be almost as good as it used to be!"

[SirValentine]

If turbine thinks all clerics should be healbots, why isn't there any named or epic loot for us?

Seriously, the best healing staff in the game right now is Twilight, Element of Magic - clearly designed for arcanes.

Not that I want a staff.

Most of the best loot for caster divines has been stuff designed for arcanes for a long time, simply because the devs almost never make ANYTHING (loot or otherwise) for caster divines. I always thought it funny that I'd be running around on a Clr/FvS with 3 or more +6 or +7 Int items equipped.

[susiedupfer]

Well they have shown a "willingness" to put implement on gear other than weapons as demonstrated by the Holy Symbol of Lolth.

I had already said it in another thread, I'd like for them to switch out nullification on the Lolth Symbol to Devotion, it would become the perfect divine item if they did that.

I would hate to lose the nullification, but if I have to choose between healing and implosion, healing would win every time.

My issues are(pardon the repeat from other threads, please) that I have to switch between heal scrolls and my devotion/potency q-staff. Every time. I have to also choose between having AC(with full plate and shield) or sp savings.

I play healers(mostly healbots tbh). I do NOT melee. Only in very low levels or as a last resort when I am out of sp will you see me hitting something. I say this to stop the whole you have to choose between healing and melee discussion. I was nerfed. ALL divines were hit hard in this. No matter whether healbots, melee or DC based. We were hit, and hit hard. Some of us noticed more because we had optimal gear that we worked long and hard for. Some of us noticed less because we were not using optimal gear.(people who think Gauntlets of Eternity are twink gear)

I want all you non-divines to stop a minute. Think of your favorite spell or weapon. Think about how much you enjoy being able to use it. Now think about how you would feel if they nerfed it. (See the result when they were talking about nerfing Wail of the Banshee) Now apply that to the fact that we use our favorite spell to HEAL THE PARTY. Not to benefit us, we can take care of ourselves well with other spells. To heal you. And you. And you. AND the fact that we were stealth nerfed did not help whatsoever. The change to the info came LONG after the nerf.

Trisha, I really do appreciate the fact that you wanted a thread with a calm discussion. I think you started out with the best of intentions. I said it before, however, this is not a subject people can be calm about. I do also appreciate the fact that this subject needs to stay high in the forums to keep the devs' attention focused on the issue.

Devs- I think we need a discussion about whether the issues raised here and in all the other threads about this are going to be addressed. The divines need to make some decisions. I, for one, am tired of this. I have all the new shinies, (Holy Symbol, Clerics set, and a potency/devotion 102 staff)and I am still not functioning as well as I was pre-U14. I need to decide if it is worth keeping my divines or if I need to roll them into something else. Something that apparently has a minimum level of respect from the devs. Where do you see the future of divines going? Are we going to be a valid part of the game? Are there going to be any items upcoming that help us? Do you even understand? I see that whole enormous list of things you are working on, and not one thing pertaining to us.

**EDIT** I realize, after taking a break, that it looks like I am asking for a whole thesis paper from the devs. I am not. A few simple statements would probably dry up the plethora of threads about divines. Such as: We understand that you are frustrated. We are not phasing out divines(because this is what we all feel). We are making gear/enhancements/SOME OTHER WORKAROUND. This is all we need to hear.

Also, there is a thread about 5 things divines need.(I am too much a computer idiot to know how to post a link.) This is a good place to post what you think we need, rather than rehashing the same old tired issue. Let's get proactive!

[DeafeningWhisper]

My cleric was TR'd right before the update.

I stopped reading at this point, when you said "I have no clue what healing in end game is like now, but refuse to hear people who are actually doing it because I know better then them".

[tasebro]

...Where do you see the future of divines going? ...

Transitioning to DDO store bought Gold Seal hirelings.

...Are we going to be a valid part of the game?...

No. You are going to tread water, circling the drain. The game is moving to pay2 win. Unnerfing divines does not improve the Pay2win market situation, reversing the nerf does not generate sales, so the nerf stands.

...Are there going to be any items upcoming that help us?...

Yes. Store bought Gold Seal hirelings will soon be allowed in raids.

...Do you even understand?...

Yes. The nerf is WAI. There is no lack of understanding, this is a deliberate renormalization to prop up the lowest common denominator. The new content was broken to the point of being unworkable, and the easy solution is to break the old content to accommodate the newer content; that means divine casters have to be nerfed as a matter of convenience.

...I see that whole enormous list of things you are working on, and not one thing pertaining to us.

The list *does* pertain to everyone: shelve your divines, and start playing classes that are benefiting from the new "changes".

[danotmano1998]

I think you should reread the OP. Before you read it, it's likely you already had a predetermined idea of what it would say.

I did. Notice my post below it?

This may be true of a DC oriented healer but is simply not true for a melee oriented healer because you can't have appropriate spell boosting power on a melee build.

You can, it's just not easy to find. I've found quite a few armors that have it on it.
In some cases, you'll have to give up something you don't want to so that it can be fit in. Choices..

I disagree with your statement. There *IS* spell boosting power on other items than a weapon. I've seen it myself.

All I'm asking for is the ability to use a DPS wpn *not do max dps* which is essential to doing melee at all (again I can care less if my DPS is min/max) while being able to maximize my heals.

Which you can.


Personally, the thing I'd like to see is the older epic gear NOT be rated so underpowered in devotion. Why a piece of Epic gear you have to grind for, collect pieces, then upgrade is weaker than a piece of random trash loot is a choice the devs made that makes little sense to me.

I *do* agree that clerics could use a little appreciation as far as making devotion properties appear on more things, but for all we know they do and we haven't found them yet, or the dev's are putting in new gear for the updates that will address this.

What I'm trying to say with my posts is that it's OK to have 66 devotion instead of 100. That *is* a valid choice. You don't always have to have the absolute best of everything maxed to be useful and have fun. It's also a valid choice to swap a weapon now and again to get max healing. It's another choice to just not play divines if that is what you want.

Whereas before you could be every bit as good of a healer regardless of your gear because of a clickie, now choices have to be made as to what you specialize in and wear.

Good luck on your quest to have more devotion items added, I agree it would be nice to have more choices.

[Thrudh]

we never used to have destinies before, we never used to have Healing Spring, Endless Faith, or Healing Power. You people are quibbling over a couple dozen spellpower that simply isn't that important. Most every cleric that I have ever grouped with overheals, and does so remorselessly. My ranger's healing power has effectively doubled since the expansion was released, and we now have druids. Healing has not been nerfed.

All that is happening in this thread is that we have some people who are having a hard time adjusting to changes in game mechanics. No, you can't simply equip a high powered potency item and be the ultimate. Potency is actually pretty pathetic nowadays... get used to it.

This... good post. Plus every melee has easy access to a 30% healing amp item now. Healing has NOT been nerfed. Healing is easier than before.

[Thrudh]

I'm sorry, I meant gear that I could quest for, ie, I play the game to level up and find loot for my characters.

If there's nothing for me to get out of a quest, I'm not going to spend pots completing it (I'm looking at you with your SP drain eye bolt, Lolth).

I'm sorry, but grinding cash for my cleric to buy his top end gear off the AH is not fun.

And taking an Epic Destiny to catch up to the point I was at pre-u14 instead of become more powerful (like every other class in the game) is not fun.

Grinding cash is usually more fun than grinding one quest's chest for named loot. Because at least grinding cash, you're not doing the same quest over and over. You can do all kinds of different quests and grind cash.