Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[waterboytkd]

Yes, perhaps most of what I currently have will still be available to me, as well as some extra goodies I don't already have, and it will be as good or better than it is now. Hopefully that will be the case. But the tree limit definitely presents a danger that deep multi splits could be considerably weaker, and I sure hope they take steps to make sure that isn't the case. Hence, feedback in this thread.

Exactly. I do think it's about time that Eladrin or MadFloyd got on here to share something, anything with us that they understand the fears around the 3 tree limit and that, if they can't give us specifics on why the limit isn't going to hurt multiclassing, then they should at least tell us that they will make sure it doesn't hurt multiclassing (and that if there's no way to avoid it hurting multiclassing, then they murder the tree limit).

[Meat-Head]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.

According to my understanding of the new system, you absolutely WILL be able to make this build. This build may even be better than before. The only possible exception would be DoS I AND divine sac I. We just don't know yet how that one will play out. Will KoTC get exclusive access to divine sac? Or will will all Pallys? Furthermore, DoS MIGHT get something even better than they have now if their tree.

Anyway, at least for this build, I'm quite optimistic.

[Coldin]

Absolutely. Nothing against multi-classing, but staying pure must have a bigger benefit.

I heavily disagree. Pure classes should have "different" benefits, but not necessarily bigger or better.

[Chai]

There will be a wider array of SDIIIs, sure. But just because you can be a mutt with SD III doesn't mean that mutts will ever be good options compared to pure 20 or 18/2 splits.

Just because they don't need to be 18 levels of fighter doesn't mean that deep multiclassing will be a good idea. Whatever split you can think of, I'm quite certain it would be more attractive in the current system, compared to pure builds, than in the new system. That's what I mean by discouraging multiclassing.

This....

My rationale for making Racial PrEs weaker is to avoid having obvious races for certain builds. If, say, Dwarven Defender was just as good as Stalwart Defender, and stacked with it, it would make Dwarves too obvious a choice for Tanks.

Make it a less significant bonus, and other Races might be able to compete.

Contradicts this.

I say place no limitation other than number of points needed on builds. Let players decide what is good and what is not good.

This only makes sense if you are entirely satisfied with your Racial PrE, and have no desire for class PrEs. Which, based on what we know, will be even more absurd than someone having no desire for class PrEs now. The Class PrEs stack with the Racial PrE. Why in the world wouldn't you want them?

No, its not that absolute. It makes sense when focusing on the racial PRE while still using some stuff from the class based enhancements. Its another option that adds a dynamic to the game that currently does not exist.

What do you mean by "focusing" on a Racial PrE? Putting 41 APs in it? That still (likely) leaves plenty for a TierIII class PrE, or TierII and TierI class PrEs. You're making it sound like myopic focus on a Racial PrE will somehow be the way we approach multiclassing. That sounds completely ridiculous to me, given the info we have.

It sounds rediculous because youre still thinking within the limitations of 18,12,6,2 for building purposes. Its not rediculous to understand that someone can focus on their racial PRE and create a class split that focuses more on what levels the enhancements or feats they want from the classes happens. We see this already with Arcane Archer, as its currently the only fleshed out racial PRE. 11 ranger 9 monk is a pretty powerful build on a half elf. Ive seen it rip right through hallways full of mobs with manyshot and then provide good striker style DPS in the meantime.

Players who build to focus on the racial PRE will focus on splitting at levels that grant the feat(s) and or enhancement(s) they desire from that class, which is NOT LIMITED (key) to the 18-12-6-2 character design we see today.

My point is the new system dramatically increases the inherent penalties to multiclassing. Without knowing what the enhancements will actually be, and how large the bonuses they provide will be, I don't know if the full update will reduce multiclassing. But I can be quite confident that the penalties will be there, as long as the system works as currently described. The new system, by its nature, discourages multiclassing.

I disagree. The new system will allow people to multiclass beyond having to take 18 levels of the same class to get t3 of a desired PRE like we have to now in most cases. This will encourage multiclassing.

[dkyle]

You know, I didn't really think about this. If a dwarf has SD racial PrE tree, and SD fighter PrE tree, and everything stacks, then all the static, non-stance-related bonuses of the tree can be obtained a second time. Effectively letting them be a Double Stalwart Defender.

I should be more clear: Racial PrEs stack with other class PrEs. You can't be a double SD, in the current system. At least, as far as I know. The Dwarf just lets you add SD to your list of PrE options. Taking Fighter wouldn't add it again.

As for discouraging multiclassing, it only does so if 3 trees is just not enough trees to spend all your AP, given your reduced levels.

That assumes all AP spent are equal. If I'm spending APs on three trees that go all the way to level 20 (a pure build), compared to one level 20 tree (the Racial tree), a level 12 tree, and a level 6 tree. Which one is more likely to have more things worthwhile? In theory, the multiclass could have more good stuff, but it strikes me as being very unlikely. The great thing about multclassing currently is that, while you don't get the highest level stuff, you get more low level stuff to spread points among. With just three trees, the multiclass also doesn't get the highest level stuff, but can only spread points among the same amount of low level stuff. There might be some choice on what trees to lock in, but that's still more restriction than the current ability to spread APs freely, and I expect most choices of trees to be extremely obvious given race, primary class, and build goal.

The result I expect would be that the pure class can pick and choose the good enhancements, from level 1 to 20, while the multiclass ends up taking junk just because he has nothing else to spend his AP on.

Also, discouraging multiclassing is not the same thing as not encouraging it.

If there's a strong draw to be pure class, that's not discouraging multiclassing. That's encouraging going pure. The encouragement to multiclass is inherent in the system: access to a wider variety of abilities. If the system makes that not the case (which is the real fear of the 3 tree restriction), then THAT's discouraging multiclassing.

Encouragement and discouragement are exactly the same things, viewed from a different point of view. Encouraging pure discourages multiclasses, always. And vice versa.

[Chai]

You know, I didn't really think about this. If a dwarf has SD racial PrE tree, and SD fighter PrE tree, and everything stacks, then all the static, non-stance-related bonuses of the tree can be obtained a second time. Effectively letting them be a Double Stalwart Defender.

Right there is a very compelling reason to be a Dwarf Fighter SD.

If theres enough points to be t3 in both.

They already indicated that racial PRE will cost more investment than class based one.

THis would have to be able to hold threat as well. Investing everything in double PRE that grants the same mitigation benefits may mean it cant DPS its way out of a paper bag. If it cant hold aggro it wont hold water as a tank. We will have to see what this all looks like when its laid out before we can make those kinds of distinctions.

[Riggs]

That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

Or...remove the class requirements for many of the prestige lines.

Arcane archer - prerequisite is;
Being able to cast spells,
(x) Bow feats
(x) BAB to get tier 3.

Racial can give either a bonus, or reduced the cost requirement to qualify - i.e. tier 1 costs 10 points, 8 if an elf, tier 2 20 or 16 etc.

Then you can get to arcane archer as a ranger, human fighter/wiz, dwarf cleric/rogue even - that blew all their feats on bow feats - just an elf and/or ranger make sit easier and cheaper to qualify - not you MUST be an elf or ranger to qualify.

Add a lockout - one tier 3 and capstone per character no matter if you can afford it or not.

[MaxwellEdison]

I think all we'd really need is to see the current enhancement distribution for all 3 PrE's of a single pure class (whichever is currently fleshed out best). This would give us a starting point to examine exactly what kind of stacking enhancements across the PrE's the devs were toying with and we could then figure out how much of a gulf there would likely be from losing one of those trees. Showing the proposed AP costs (if anything other than 1) would also give us a lot of help in imagining how the whole system is intended to be balanced.

So what say the devs? We've already seen the preliminary Tempest/Dervish (hereby dubbed Tempish©) PrE bonuses. Have the tree mocked up along with DWS and AA?

[Riggs]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

Which is why I keep suggesting that the tiers not be completely tied to class levels. Just make the costs easier for some classes, but a 18/2 should be able to take tier 1 in their splash class if they can afford the pre-reqs.

Making it more expensive will sharply limit what people can do - but not exclude it. Want a human wizard 20 that has tier 2 assassin? Sure - but it is going to take all the feats/enhancements you have to do it, and you will be a much worse wizard. But you get that choice.

[Vormaerin]

Haste Boost enhancement on rogue is HUGE... Probably the only reason I would take 2 levels of rogue over 2 levels of monk.

I see this more as a problem with the current Haste boost than anything else. If a particular enhancement is so good its practically mandatory, it might be worth considering whether it is too good.

[Meat-Head]

Exactly. I do think it's about time that Eladrin or MadFloyd got on here to share something, anything with us that they understand the fears around the 3 tree limit and that, if they can't give us specifics on why the limit isn't going to hurt multiclassing, then they should at least tell us that they will make sure it doesn't hurt multiclassing (and that if there's no way to avoid it hurting multiclassing, then they murder the tree limit).

^^ This.


There is a legit concern, as far as I can see so far, that splashed may limit enh.

Example.

18/2 Barb/Rog

The barb is going to want haste boost from Rogue. But the barb is NOT going to want to "waste" a tree slot JUST for that...

This creates a difficult choice that we DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE TO DEAL WITH. I see how some can say that this discourages multis. This is the basic reason why some are calling for no tree limit. OR having a general class tab.

I'm still positive about these changes overall. But I feel like a dev should address this concern.

[Thrudh]

I see this more as a problem with the current Haste boost than anything else. If a particular enhancement is so good its practically mandatory, it might be worth considering whether it is too good.

It's not quite mandatory though... I spent a lot of time deciding on my paladin if I wanted to splash two levels of monk or two levels of rogue... Two feats is pretty huge to a paladin...

It wasn't an easy decision. Right now, the two evasion splashes are very well balanced in my mind.

[Meat-Head]

It's not quite mandatory though... I spent a lot of time deciding on my paladin if I wanted to splash two levels of monk or two levels of rogue... Two feats is pretty huge to a paladin...

It wasn't an easy decision. Right now, the two evasion splashes are very well balanced in my mind.

Agree with this 100%.

[Riggs]

Whle the idea has merit. It benefits a splash itno the class that has the prestige but It does nothing for the pure class character with that racial. I know there's an ap spent cost but that was there with the old way too.

One thing I don't like about the system is it kinda gives favorite classes nothing and in fact somewhat penalizes them for those races as they don't get anything in extra whereas a non favored class still get's access to an extra tree and all it's enhancements.

A possible fix to this dilemma is maybe treat someone who already has the class and racial combo gets a scaling number of virtual points spent in that tree.

Example: A drow ranger gets lets say 2 virtual points spent for every 4 levels taken in ranger. These just count towards the total points spent they aren't additional action points that can be used for anything else. So a 20 drow ranger essential gets 10 free points towards tempest.

This would allow pure builds of favored races a nice benefit and allow them to be more rangery (in this example) as they would actually be able to get tempest capped out easier and still have more to spend in other trees.

That is probably the best way - racial favored class gives you a cheaper way to get to the goal, freeing up points to spend on other things and still get a tier 3/capstone.

The assumption is that enhancements become more useful than most of them are now - so if you spend 10 points on 'general' enhancements - you are getting something of a similar, but slightly less power of a tier 1 prestige class.

10 points should be 10 points of power - not "I had to spend 10/20 points on trash just to get 1 good thing - but most of those spent points are wasted on my character". Which currently is the case in a lot of pre-reqs.

[grodon9999]

That is probably the best way - racial favored class gives you a cheaper way to get to the goal, freeing up points to spend on other things and still get a tier 3/capstone.

The assumption is that enhancements become more useful than most of them are now - so if you spend 10 points on 'general' enhancements - you are getting something of a similar, but slightly less power of a tier 1 prestige class.

10 points should be 10 points of power - not "I had to spend 10/20 points on trash just to get 1 good thing - but most of those spent points are wasted on my character". Which currently is the case in a lot of pre-reqs.

What about humans? They get it for all? They don't have a favored class.

[Riggs]

The Racial PrE combined with the three tree limit is the problem. If I've got a solid PrE from my primary class, plus a solid PrE from my Race, I have to find yet another PrE worth giving up not just levels (and tiers) of my primary class, but also a whole tree of enhancements from my primary class.

But my biggest concern is that as-is, a Dwarven Fighter SD makes very little sense, because it's a waste of the Racial PrE. SDIII Dwarven pure Monk? SDIII Dwarven pure Barbarian? SDIII Dwarven pure Favored Soul? All seem great. It's bizarre that SDIII Dwarven Fighter is redundant, and thus likely a poor choice.

if the higher level class enchancements, in this case fighter and/or dwarf - are actually good - say you can take +4 strength, extra damage bonuses, extra defences - completely ignoring what prestige you took - then people should not have to feel that "I am totally wasting my last 20 points because I have nothing to spend it on - because the fighter/wizard/cleric/whatever level 16+ enhancements are so good that I get good use from them even if they are not attached to any particular prestige line".

Most or all of the worries about wasted points, or not having enough prestige lines would be reduced significantly if all AP were useful instead of only some of them.

[Failedlegend]

What about humans? They get it for all? They don't have a favored class.

Actually they do...its Any..they get to choose one

The more I think about Dkyle's idea the more I like it...the only problem is it would require the races to have actual PrEs not just duplicates like the one's I mentioned earlier...mind you I view that as a good thing.

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells or something)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)

Another alternative is to use Racial PrEs to implement what could be consider "Multi-class" or "Race Specific" PrEs like Juggernaut, Reforged, Eldritch Knight, AA, Arcane Trickster, Sacred Fist, Dread Pirate,etc.

Something Like this

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender & Sacred Fist

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: Dread Pirate (Kind of like a warrior bard w/ Sea Skills)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Black Flame Zealot (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

[dkyle]

This....

Contradicts this.

No it doesn't. Precisely because I think shifting the important choice to race-class, instead of multiclass splits, is a bad thing. When multiclass split is the focus of the build, we can choose among most races to use with it. There might be one we think is the best, but for most current builds, most races can work. Under the new system, most builds will absolutely require a specific race (allowing a swap for Human/Half-elf, possibly).

I say place no limitation other than number of points needed on builds. Let players decide what is good and what is not good.

So then do you mean that the maximum potential of the Dwarf PrE should be the same as SD III, but it should cost much more?

It sounds rediculous because youre still thinking within the limitations of 18,12,6,2 for building purposes. Its not rediculous to understand that someone can focus on their racial PRE and create a class split that focuses more on what levels the enhancements or feats they want from the classes happens. We see this already with Arcane Archer, as its currently the only fleshed out racial PRE. 11 ranger 9 monk is a pretty powerful build on a half elf. Ive seen it rip right through hallways full of mobs with manyshot and then provide good striker style DPS in the meantime.

I'm pretty sure enhancements play a major role in monk-based archer builds. How many trees do you think the enhancements on those builds will end up being split among?

Once we can stack together Assassin III, Arcane Archer V, and TempestI on a Halfling pure Ranger, do you really think an Arcane Archer V, Tempest I, Ninja Spy I is going to still have much appeal? Or a Ravager III, Arcane Archer V, Tempest I on Half-orc pure Ranger, supposing that Ravager does indeed get some kind of crit multiplier increase that includes ranged and melee?

Players who build to focus on the racial PRE will focus on splitting at levels that grant the feat(s) and or enhancement(s) they desire from that class, which is NOT LIMITED (key) to the 18-12-6-2 character design we see today.

Currently, feats and class features are so underpowered compared to PrEs that they are rarely the point of a deep multiclass. The new system will make PrEs even more powerful. making feats and class features even more underpowered compared to PrEs. Just because we have a Racial PrE that we can "focus" doesn't mean Class PrEs have nothing to offer us. I just don't see people passing them up Class PrEs that are even more powerful than the ones we have now, for class features that we have no indication will get any significant improvement. If anything, with PrE feat prereqs getting toned down, multiclassing for feats will become much less attractive. If I don't need Weapon Focus on my Warchanter anymore, for example, I doubt I'd still splash for Fighter, especially if I can't even reasonably use the handful of enhancements it currently gets me.

I disagree. The new system will allow people to multiclass beyond having to take 18 levels of the same class to get t3 of a desired PRE like we have to now in most cases. This will encourage multiclassing.

It discourages going 18 levels of the PrE's class, but that only acts as an encouragement to all other builds, not just multiclassing builds. How multiclasses stack up compared to pure or 18/2 builds is what will determine how "encouraged" they themselves end up being. While the set of all builds that aren't 18+ fighter becomes more attractive thanks to the Racial PrE, that doesn't mean the set of all deeply multiclassed builds becomes more attractive.

[Riggs]

That's what the 26 level capstone is for. This would be a special capstone that only pure builds of the favored race could get, in addition to the normal capstone. It wouldn't be huge (say another 5% doublestrike on a Ranger, or another 5% or 10% HP on an SD), but it should provide a reasonable incentive.

Classes already would still be getting their level 20 capstones one would assume.

Add in a prestige capstone at 41 AP )or less AP if of the favored race).

Adding in a 3rd capstone would be pretty huge I would argue.

5% stacking doublestrike is far from insignificant. 5-10% more hp - on a build that is going to be assumed to already be topping 900-1000 hp...well 100 more hp is pretty huge.

Racial lines were already looking overpowered yesterday, but that seems to be tempering. Something that is LESS than a past life feat would be reasonable - not something that is several times better than a past life feat (If PL barb gives 10 hp - a racial capstone should at best give 10 hp, not 100 for example - or if PL fighter gives +1 to hit and dc's, no racial capstone should give more than a +1 in something).

[dkyle]

Classes already would still be getting their level 20 capstones one would assume.

I doubt it. Where would it go? There's no general class enhancements.

I'm pretty sure the only capstones in the current system are the PrE capstones.

5% stacking doublestrike is far from insignificant. 5-10% more hp - on a build that is going to be assumed to already be topping 900-1000 hp...well 100 more hp is pretty huge.

They are aren't supposed to be insignificant. They come at the price of staying pure instead of multiclassing 6 levels of another class, while still gaining the primary class's TierIII PrE, and capstone! That's a big benefit to be counter-balancing.

Racial lines were already looking overpowered yesterday, but that seems to be tempering. Something that is LESS than a past life feat would be reasonable - not something that is several times better than a past life feat (If PL barb gives 10 hp - a racial capstone should at best give 10 hp, not 100 for example - or if PL fighter gives +1 to hit and dc's, no racial capstone should give more than a +1 in something).

That would make them pitifully weak. TR benefits should be minor, because if they aren't, then end up producing an insurmountable gap between long-time players and new players. PrEs are available to everyone, though.

Still think the answer is that Racial PrEs should not be Class PrEs, but their own thing. My Favored PrE idea may or may not be necessary, but I think it would work.