Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Chai]

I like the idea of using the actual number of points to curb overpowered-ness. Having more options on the table does not equal having the ability to take everything offered. As a long time DM / REF, Ive always loved the idea of the dilema. Players must choose and choose carefully. In DDO someone who is a 20 fighter half orc wanting to spec into both fighter and ravager fully has 80 AP, and 150 AP worth of DPS goodies they could spec into. They could end up full ravager with some kensai benefits, full kensai with some ravager benefits, or mutt build that has some tank, some ravager, and some kensai in it.

Tossing a racial PRE into the mix doesnt necessarily need to mean someone will be kebnsai3 stalwart3 ravager3 melee dps pun pun build from hades. They wont have nearly the points available to take all those options.

Theres really no reason to force players into further limitations.

[Gulain]

A pure character can take more total ranks of PrEs (assuming you're talking about the bonus ranks). Consider the 7 ranks (available at levels 3/6/12/9/15/18/20)

A pure, without racial PrE, could go 7/6, for 13 total PrE ranks. Or, 6/6/2, for 14 total PrE ranks. Other splits are possible, but 14 is the max. Add in racial PrE, then as long as the overhead is 10 or less, it'll cost one PrE rank, for a max of 13.

An 18/2 that doesn't take a tree from their splash, nor their Racial PrE, is capable of the same numbers of ranks, although they lose the option of the capstoned 7/6 split. If they take their Racial PrE, again, assuming no more than 10 AP overhead, that reduces their possible ranks to 13. Now, if they do take a tree from their Splash, they are now only able to go 6/6, whether they take their Racial PrE or not, for 12 ranks.

This logic is entirely false. The 3/6/9/12/15/18/20 is referring to total level of the character (including all classes in a multiclass). You are limited by AP to select 80 AP worth of enhancements. PREs are tiered at 10/20/30 replicating our current PRE with fillers inbetween them that provide additional boosts. All told there are 7 "tiers" under the new system with the final one being at 41 points.

A "pure" character as you put it is limited to 80AP which can be broken down to 30/30/20 for 6/6/4 "tiers" under the new system. A splash multiclass character can do the same thing... 30/30/20 by utilizing 2 trees from their primary class and 20 from a racial just like the pure 20 would (this case being a 18/2 split).

A deep multiclass, 12/6/2 split, would be limited to 20 points in a primary tree (or maybe 25 point tier) and could be looking at a slightly lower cap when limited to 3 trees. A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now. A 12/6/2 split could go for 41/20/15 (if racial capstones available for 7 tiers + tier 4 class + tier 3 class). The second would be 1 total tier less but the first could reach the same theoretical maximum that a pure or 18/2 split could reach. They would also at the same time get all of the other benefits that you pass off as non-factors (including evasion?) for multi-classing.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Glad you like it

Yeah, if you do want to keep the current full-tiered-Racial-PrEs, adding a bonus-level side effect would go a long way towards ensuring that Half-orc Barbs, Drow Rangers, etc, have a real purpose. But I still think full-tiered Racial PrEs are too powerful compared to what multiclassing gets us. I'd rather the build emphasis be on multiclass splits, than on specific race/class combos.

I do not like where you are going with this. Race needs to remain an integral part of the build process, and sometimes that means racial benefits will trump certain multi-class configurations...

That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

Epic action points I think offers a wide open mechanic that can be utilized in "raising the cap" as well as altered to fix many racial balance issues and such as they occur.

Racial PrE's should be added like originally suggested, its a great way to divorce "class from PrE" and offer us "many more options".

[bhgiant]

I like the idea of using the actual number of points to curb overpowered-ness. Having more options on the table does not equal having the ability to take everything offered. As a long time DM / REF, Ive always loved the idea of the dilema. Players must choose and choose carefully. In DDO someone who is a 20 fighter half orc wanting to spec into both fighter and ravager fully has 80 AP, and 150 AP worth of DPS goodies they could spec into. They could end up full ravager with some kensai benefits, full kensai with some ravager benefits, or mutt build that has some tank, some ravager, and some kensai in it.

Tossing a racial PRE into the mix doesnt necessarily need to mean someone will be kebnsai3 stalwart3 ravager3 melee dps pun pun build from hades. They wont have nearly the points available to take all those options.

Theres really no reason to force players into further limitations.

I like the suggestion from someone who earlier stated to make a "lock in" 5 points. Spending 4 points in a tree would let you dabble but wouldn't lock in the tree.

I am actually in favor of the tree lock as long as this is in place. It wouldn't take away from splash builds. Tree locking is a good way to limit power and improve balance between builds.

[Failedlegend]

sted, its a great way to divorce "class from PrE" and offer us "many more options".

ALL racials being just duplicates do make the base classes feel a little meaningless but if we made the racials unique PrEs it would make it far more diverse...while giving half-elfs an interesting advantage, make humans scream versatility and give elves a reason to exist

I propose the following:


Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)

I like the suggestion from someone who earlier stated to make a "lock in" X points. Spending X-1 points in a tree would let you dabble but wouldn't lock in the tree.

I am actually in favor of the tree lock as long as this is in place. It wouldn't take away from splash builds. Tree locking is a good way to limit power and improve balance between builds.

Changed to X to let the devs decide the actual number but yeah works for me

[dkyle]

A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.

No:

Quote from Eladrin via PM: "A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

[Aashrym]

A barb doesnt get assassin lines. A halfling does. A horc barb doesnt get kensai, a human barb can.
A horc that can access ravager gains nothing unless the tier 3/capstone costs less than it would otherwise - making horc a useful race for a barb - but then we get OP silliness like double capstone horc barbs, double capstone elf arcanes, double capstone human or dwarf tanks - which is simply too stupidly overpowered to be allowed in the game.

A barb doesn't get the assassin line, correct. A horc who wants the assassin line can make a rogue and and the racial PrE ravager to it and have both. Or he can multi rogue and barbarian, have the full PrE tree for ravager and part of assassin and part of occult slayer. The benefit is he can still utilize the PrE tree effectively as a barbarian, as a splashed barbarian, or as another class. Sounds so terrible.

If the horc plays makes an assassin he doesn't have the rage ability without barbarian levels. PrE's are not classes and while they provide benefits they don't provide the main class features.

In the meantime if the new enhancement tree system were to get scrapped and the existing system of enhancements remain then completing the racial PrE's produces the same result you are talking about. Elves and helves being able to take arcane archer without the ranger level restrictions did not stop them from making rangers.

If we added and applied ravager to horcs and stalwarts to dwarves in the existing system horcs would still make barbarians for rage and dwarves would still make fighters for the extra feats. Dwarves could make bards and add stalwart III going pure bard or splashing. If that would break things in the new system it would break things in the old system.

The new system sounds like it's going to balance that out with stances to prevent OP combos but in the mean time we're looking at adding capstones that would never be available in the old system to multis. If anything that makes the new system look more multi-class friendly, not less.

[orakio]

One of the things i think the developers need to really identify is exactly how many PrE ranks they want players to realistically have access to. If we look at the example of Tempest provided earlier, each rank of the PrE gives a pretty solid bonus to your character and realistically at no cost assuming the enhancements that you are taking to reach those tiers are relevant and effective for your character.

@Dkyle i kind of like the system of racial PrE's providing a bonus to the classes that their PrE belongs to but i am not sure if i really like the limitation of needing to include that class into your character to access the PrE past tier 1. I am intrigued by the idea of things like Divine Avenger/Stalwart defender tanks and other builds that you don't see now, and i think that the system as you described it would probably limit your choices in other ways that would otherwise be available as the system is currently described.

Right now it just feels like we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole, yes there are some builds that may have issues with the new setup but there are also a slew of new potential builds with the way it currently sounds like it is designed. Other people have mentioned the idea of +X hearts of wood for current characters, and perhaps it will be needed depending on how it impacts multiclass characters. All i know is i am excited for details on some of the tree's and PrE's that have been missing so we can see the real possibilities of the system as outlined before criticizing it.

[Gulain]

[QUOTE=dkyle;4253746]

A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.[/quotes]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

But they can take 2 class PRE from their own class and a full racial pre (unless this is prevented). It still allows them to get the same total # of ranks as a pure or 18/2 split. Actually, a 16/4 could get 1 "tier" MORE than anything else. Doesn't make this especially overpowered but I think people are worrying too much about tier count when how your points are spent is more important than what tiers you will qualify for.

[LeLoric]

[QUOTE=dkyle;4253746]

A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.[/quotes]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

Think he meant double splash within his lev 16 class and then full racial prestige. So maybe a drow tempest/assassin/mechanic. It's probably very likely however that ap constraints may be an issue here as some points have to be used to unlock the racial prestige. Would maybe end up a split more like say 30/25/20 with the other 5 unlocking the racial.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 65 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 20
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    30
Dexterity            13                    17
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence          9                    12
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             15                    22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                     7
Bluff                 2                     8
Concentration         2                     9
Diplomacy             2                     8
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                2                     6
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  1                     3
Intimidate            6                    33
Jump                  8                    14
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         1                     3
Open Lock             5                    18
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  8                    15
Tumble                5                     7
Use Magic Device      6                    32

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+10)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[dkyle]

Thats bring up the questions of...WHY?

Why does ONLY AA get the exception while other racials get shafted

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The new system sounds like it's going to balance that out with stances to prevent OP combos but in the mean time we're looking at adding capstones that would never be available in the old system to multis. If anything that makes the new system look more multi-class friendly, not less.

Yep, and thats only a small piece of the puzzle. New Racial PrEs and a reworked and empowered dragonmark system would really make this game fun again for many.

[dkyle]

But they can take 2 class PRE from their own class and a full racial pre (unless this is prevented). It still allows them to get the same total # of ranks as a pure or 18/2 split. Actually, a 16/4 could get 1 "tier" MORE than anything else. Doesn't make this especially overpowered but I think people are worrying too much about tier count when how your points are spent is more important than what tiers you will qualify for.

16/4 could get 7/5/1 at most, which is only 13 total ranks. Fewer than the 14 possible on a Pure build.

But I still don't think a 16/4 is truly a "deep" multiclass. It's borderline, but most 4-splashes are about feats and class features (I'm thinking mostly of 16 Bard/4 Fighter builds), not enhancements.

[Failedlegend]

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT becuase he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

With AA of course being the exception so we don't screw over current builds

If thats how it works...I'm good with that

[Gulain]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 65 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 20
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    30
Dexterity            13                    17
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence          9                    12
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             15                    22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                     7
Bluff                 2                     8
Concentration         2                     9
Diplomacy             2                     8
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                2                     6
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  1                     3
Intimidate            6                    33
Jump                  8                    14
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         1                     3
Open Lock             5                    18
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  8                    15
Tumble                5                     7
Use Magic Device      6                    32

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+10)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

I think it is too early at this point to say that you won't be able to build something superior or equivalent to it. I think you can safely assume that it will be DIFFERENT and will require you to re-evaluate things somewhat. Some of your skill focuses might drop slightly, others get boosted. It's a shame to say you are going to quit because you can't play an identical build when the system is overhauled because chances are that no build in the game currently will be identical in the new system.

From the input provided by the Dev's so far you SHOULD be able to make a build to fit ANY style you want. The combination of flushing out racial PRE, adding additional "tiers" to the pre system, overhauling and ultimately reducing the cost of many current enhancements should all lead to much more variety in the options of things to build. Wait until full information is out and you've had a chance to play on Lam and then make the decision from there.

[Thrudh]

So say you were a horc fighter 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 (note very hypothetical as my guildie has one of these . . .)

Tree 1: Kensai II
Tree 2: Tempest I
Treer 3: Ravager III (racial)

Assuming you have all the APs . . . you can do this? just won't be able to put any APs into any of his rogue stuff?

Maybe this does make not being to get any rogue enhancements worth it...

Right now, two PrEs is about all we can get... New system we'll be able to get three... so maybe losing the 1-2 levels of enhancements will be worth it.

[dkyle]

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT becuase he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

If thats how it works...I'm good with that

Yeah, that's my intention.

[Chai]

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

I dont feel that racial PRE discourages multiclassing - actually its quite the opposite.

Giving dwarves defender in your example, takes the limitation away from having to be 18 levels of fighter or paladin to be a tier 3 defender. A dwarf could take 20 barbarian levels and still be a defender. Stanley_Nicholas' (12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) could be a dwarven defender tank build if he wanted it to be with all 3 tiers of the PRE. Im not understanding this concern that racial PRE would discourage multiclassing. Being able to to multiclass and still be able to take tier 3 in a PRE is literally all the encouragement people will need to multiclass. No longer will we be locked into a 2, 6 or 12 levels as the legit splashes that work best. I could make a 9 monk 11 ranger and go full arcane archer right now. That should still be possible after the update, and apply to other class combinations as well without requiring people to invest in the original class to take the racial pre. The whole point is being able to take a racial PRE without having to be the class that normally would gain access to that pre to begin with.

Being able to build a odd split mutt and still be tier 3 in a pre encourages (not discourages) multiclassing. A 6 barbarian 13 rogue 1 monk defender 3 would be possible, for instance.

[Failedlegend]

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT because he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

With AA of course being the exception so we don't screw over current builds

If thats how it works...I'm good with that

Yeah, that's my intention.

Ok so since I'm cool with that what should Human and H-Elves "Favored" PrEs be...should it be none to counter balance their flexibility in their Racial PrEs or should it be any to reflect that flexibility with H-Elves limited by their dilly so humans could choose any ONE class to give 6 "Pseudo" levels to while H-Elf can do the same with one of the PrEs from their Dilly Class

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells or something)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)