Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[grodon9999]

Yes, that build would work.

But, it's competing against a Drow (or maybe Human/Half-elf) pure Barbarian TempestIII/FBIII/RavagerI.

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

[Cyr]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

I don't think so based upon the responses we have so far.

It is a racial tree (that is NOT a racial PrE, but instead stuff like human healing amp) which you can spend point in to unlock the ability to set one of the three selectable PrE trees to your racial PrE.

So you are limited to three PrE tabs which could be a racial plus two class or three classes.

[Riggs]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

That sounds like a new change from yesterday even. or else two different people posting slightly different thoughts on the matter.

*edit...too many new posts - clarified now - same as yesterday then

[Cyr]

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

Depends on how lose those feat requirements get. If they do not loosen up a decent amount racial PrE's will in certain cases be next to worthles though (like drow tempest).

[dkyle]

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

We've been told that feat requirements will be scaled way back. I think "flavor" prereqs, which Tempest has the worst of, are going away.

The only example of feat prereqs staying we've been given have been for enhancements that literally enhance that feat. Like Cleave -> Supreme Cleave, which would not be a required enhancement for FB (just one among many that could count towards it).

[Gulain]

But if we can stack together Healing PrEs, then the "Healbot" with two, or even three, healing PrEs becomes much better at healing than than the Melee/offensive-casting-focused Divine. Whereas currently, Healbots gain very little healing power over more well-rounded builds.

There's no indication anywhere that either of the current divine classes is going to have 2 seperate healing PREs. The last data we had on planned PREs, while no longer current or necessarily accurate for classes (and certaintly incorrect on races) indicated only a single healer prestige line for either of these classes.

Yes, stacking healing enhancements from 3 trees if they all received the same bonuses and locked out would certaintly make for a stronger healer. But current healing level shouldn't change if you go 30points into the appropriate healer tree for either divine class.

If you can stack together Healing PrEs from seperate classes you are talking about a multiclass healer (as there is no confirmation regarding either of these PREs being achievable by any of the races) which means you are casting at MUCH lower caster level. Undoubtedly this is still a total deduction at healing output and you'd have to ask if the enhancements you can pick up from a split would cover this. Just going on the information we have from current enhancements I'd say in no way giving up 6+ class levels for a healer going to make you heal BETTER even assuming combination of enhancements.

[dkyle]

That sounds like a new change from yesterday even. or else two different people posting slightly different thoughts on the matter.

No, it's consistent. Eladrin's response just becomes a bit confusing on it's own if you don't realize the difference between Racial tree and Racial PrEs. I should've included my query to him as context. Here's the original #1 that he confirmed:

1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

[Cyr]

There's no indication anywhere that either of the current divine classes is going to have 2 seperate healing PREs. The last data we had on planned PREs, while no longer current or necessarily accurate for classes (and certaintly incorrect on races) indicated only a single healer prestige line for either of these classes.

Which would then lead to two healing PrEs on a half elf or human character.

[grodon9999]

We've been told that feat requirements will be scaled way back. I think "flavor" prereqs, which Tempest has the worst of, are going away.

The only example of feat prereqs staying we've been given have been for enhancements that literally enhance that feat. Like Cleave -> Supreme Cleave, which would not be a required enhancement for FB (just one among many that could count towards it).

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

best thing to do is a LONG beta where we see what we can come up with to "break" things. What'll be the next 18/1/1 or 12/6/2 ubber combo . . . how OP is it . . . etc . . . and then adjust.

Changes this big will have unintended consequences.

[Gulain]

Which would then lead to two healing PrEs on a half elf or human character.

Except that you are ASSUMING that's possible. Not sure why everyone things Human or Helf can take EVERY PRE possible. I believe Eladrin already posted that they were planning on limiting this.

I'm going to go with only melee (or physical weapon-based) type PREs are being planned for racial PRE (as indicated by their list) and Human's/H-elves will most likely be restricted to this same list of racial PRE.

edit: Here's a link to where Eladrin talks a little about Human/H-elf situation: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=307

More or less they have acknowledged the propensity for disaster if these races were to have open PRE selection. I would think that they would keep situations outlined by DKyle and yourself in mind if they are making "lists based on class" as he tossed out. Open to change but pretty sure they have these things in mind or were made aware of them by posts by the community.

[Riggs]

No, it's consistent. Eladrin's response just becomes a bit confusing on it's own if you don't realize the difference between Racial tree and Racial PrEs. I should've included my query to him as context. Here's the original #1 that he confirmed:

yeah too many new posts, after my reply was like 10 more posts already - same as yesterday then.

[Claymorep]

Let me say I like the base idea exposed by Devs, but...
After years (from advent of DDO) in which class balance was miles away to be balanced You are suggesting to start it again from "start" and sincerely I doubt a lot You'll do a better work in balancing them and considering the recent jobs all these changes will have a so great bugs impact that probably 6 monthes later we'll have a no-bug work and we'll have to whine some others years about class balance with another competition about more class whining win...

I repeat that I like the idea, but this change will be a great change with some new bugs, some new class unbalances and some new request to balance them...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

best thing to do is a LONG beta where we see what we can come up with to "break" things. What'll be the next 18/1/1 or 12/6/2 ubber combo . . . how OP is it . . . etc . . . and then adjust.

Changes this big will have unintended consequences.

Oh, this HAS to sit on Lamma for a good remainder of '12, and thats if they plan to have it out for play testing in mid summer. 3-4 months is my guess.

[Dagolar]

Unless "No idea just yet." is in answer to his first question....than you still haven't answered the question about what happens to the general class enhancements that were not previously tied to any particular PrE of the class, whether or not they will end up being shared by the new PrE tabs, whether or not they will count for both, whether or not they will lock out same-type enhancements in other tabs. All questions we would like answers to, for several pages of this thread by now.

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

Making racial PrEs take up a PrE tab adds tactical functionality while still offering versatility. Assuming that paths still tie to class level, tying those to overall level further adds to the value. So that's a solid set.

The problem lies in with core class enhancements. By dividing them among PrEs, you risk limiting current versatility for multi-class builds, while at the same time promoting multi-class build use. Certainly, that structure seems fun enough, but it seems a stepping-stone to becoming too narrow in builds, which I recall was a specific element mentioned by devs earlier in this thread as NOT being wanted.
So, the simplest approach to this seems as if it would be adding another thin row below the enhancements tabs. Like the total-points-spent column above it, it would form a straight line of tiered icons tied to a numeric requirement- in this case, core class level.
The columns in the bottom would remain empty until levels of the core class were taken; Racial PrE unlock could add an additional column below the racial enhancements tab, assuming no duplication of class, allowing further variety, as well as value to unlocking without pursuing.

I believe it was mentioned that the total points spent columns unlocked automatically upon gaining of x points, so this new row/new columns would differ in requiring points to be actively spent on the enhancements, thus retaining the generic access versatility of per-class enhancements.

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

May want to improve Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave's functionalities, then, most people seem to consider them as alternates of cleave, not upgrades.

Oh, this HAS to sit on Lamma for a good remainder of '12, and thats if they plan to have it out for play testing in mid summer. 3-4 months is my guess.

Patience is a virtue. For all involved.

[Failedlegend]

Dwarf: Perfict Choise, just spelled wrong...fixed it...hehe
Warforged: Right class, but missing the eberron flair.
Halfling: Fine choise, but I'd go with TA for flavor.
Half-Orc: Perfict!
Elf: Fitting, but I think the extra option of Archmage will bring more attention to the underutilized Elf(maybe...)
Drow: Way off, for melee balance purposes maybe...but if that's the case Assassin fits the Drow better, imo.
Human: Fitting...I think I've slimmed the choises down to the few that "say" Human the most, as far as flexability or boringness...
Half-Elf: Fitting...I just applied my Human and Elf responses to Half-Elf(but maybe give the Half-Elf a choise based on their Dilettante)


Well...after a few hours of brainstorming(mostly on the Juggernaut in my linked post)....there's my 2CP.
~Nim

Agree with some but personally I'd go with this

Dwarf:

Dwarven Defender (even if it's a straight duplicate of Stalwart defender just call it this )

Warforged

Juggernaut works IF you go with Ormsbygores idea or something similar (Titan form is cool but the immunity to healing which makes it useless)...if you go with the PnP version it's useless..on the other hand it would be funny to make Occult Slayer the warforged racial...being that melee warforged have been allegedly so far behind their arcane brethern that they decided to just start killing them off.

Alternatively you could go with Reforged which is essentially the opposite of Juggernaut...IIRC it's all about striping away the metal components and getting closer to a flesh and blood race (more tree-like i guess) it would remove the ASF, the divine healing Penalty but you'd lose the improved fort, the ability to take an armor feat and your ability to use repair spells would be reduced but they get to keep all their immunities.


Halfling


I'd be ok with Assassin it doesn't really fit halflings but honestly none of the current PrEs available really do...although I'd love if Dino-Rider was added

Half-Orc

Ravager works..no argument here

Elf

AA works sure but I honestly think elf NEEDS more and I think the one thing that could make them a race used again is a Gish PrE..Eldritch Knight for example...basically have it reduce ASF, Increase Caster Level (Maxed at 20) and early on have it make it so attack uses Int/Cha (whichever is higher) for attack and damage. Capstone would nullify any ASF and make BAB 20.

Drow

No real comment here never really played, probably never will so I'll let the drow lovers decide what they like.

Human

This fits perfectly actually...very much reflects their versatile nature.

Note: Humans should NOT have access to some racially SPECIFIC PrEs like Juggernaut (need to be warforged to make sense) or Eldritch Knight (This would make elves useless again as you'd just go Human instead)


Half-Elf

Their Racial PrE should be reflected in their Dilettante choice ie. Choose Paladin Dilly get your choice of Paladin Prestige...as well as AA of course...although NOT Eldritch KNight only Elf should have access to that

[Cyr]

Except that you are ASSUMING that's possible. Not sure why everyone things Human or Helf can take EVERY PRE possible.

I am only responding based upon what has been said so far. I have seen no indication that only melee or ranged based PrE's will be available as racial choices for humans or half elves.

[Dagolar]

Agree with some but personally I'd go with this

[...]

Human

This fits perfectly actually...very much reflects their versatile nature...except ONLY elf should have access to Eldritch Knight


Half-Elf

Their Racial PrE should be reflected in their Dilettante choice ie. Choose Paladin Dilly get your choice of Paladin Prestige...as well as AA of course... [...]

To the first part: Yes, there have to be some PrEs that are racially specific.. if, for no other reason, that Juggernaut and Scorpion Wraith would be absurd to try and explain away on another race.

To the second: YES. Tie the HE bonus PrE choice to their Dil. It's a smooth solution, it still allows them human-like versatility on the matter, and it adds tons of flavor.

[dkyle]

Under the old system multiclass characters were almost universally better as you had a better ability to pick pure dps boosting enhancements instead of wasting points on useless enhancements just to get to the next step of enhancements.

I don't think this at all true. Pure builds and 18/2 builds are very common. We have deep multiclassing, but they don't dominate. If anything, I wish the new system would encourage them more, but this goes the exact opposite direction.

Also don't forget that multiclassing lets you take advantage of things like class bonus feats (monk/fighter), inherent feats(ranger), or unique feats that you can't otherwise acquire like evasion (monk/rogue/ranger). That is a massive advantage if you also get to include superior enhancement selection.

Class features are rarely the impetus for deep multiclassing currently, and I doubt that will change.

Splashes, sure, but I don't think splashes will be hurt nearly as much as deep multiclassing.

A pure character is not able to get any higher in it's total ranks of PrE's than a multiclass character in the new system. They don't have more tree slots, and they don't have the old capstone bonuses that helped to bring incintive to pure characters. They have new capstones that require 41 points in a tree but those last 11 points trade off for 2 ranks of a PrE bonus (level 5 and 10) and may even prevent more than that depending on the costs of unlocking racial PrE's.

A pure character can take more total ranks of PrEs (assuming you're talking about the bonus ranks). Consider the 7 ranks (available at levels 3/6/12/9/15/18/20)

A pure, without racial PrE, could go 7/6, for 13 total PrE ranks. Or, 6/6/2, for 14 total PrE ranks. Other splits are possible, but 14 is the max. Add in racial PrE, then as long as the overhead is 10 or less, it'll cost one PrE rank, for a max of 13.

An 18/2 that doesn't take a tree from their splash, nor their Racial PrE, is capable of the same numbers of ranks, although they lose the option of the capstoned 7/6 split. If they take their Racial PrE, again, assuming no more than 10 AP overhead, that reduces their possible ranks to 13. Now, if they do take a tree from their Splash, they are now only able to go 6/6, whether they take their Racial PrE or not, for 12 ranks.

A 12/6/2 gets complicated:

For 2 primary class PrEs, plus 1 secondary class PrE: 4/4/2 is the highest possible layout, for only 10 PrE ranks. What's worse, dropping one won't even allow them to raise another.

For 1 Racial PrE, plus 1 primary class PrE, plus 1 secondary class PrE: 7/4/2 is the highest possible layout, for 13 PrE ranks. But note two things: anything other than a capstoned Race is suboptimal, because the other trees can't be increased further, so there are fewer choices than the Pure or Splash, and the Racial PrE actually means more than the PrEs from actual class levels. This points to race+class combos being much more important than multiclassing for versatility. I don't think that's a good thing.

For 1 primary class PrE, plus 2 secondary class PrEs: 4/2/2 is highest possible, for only 8 PrE ranks.

For 1 Racial PrE, plus 2 secondary class PrEs: 7/2/2 is highest, for 11 PrE ranks. But this one isn't even likely, since it means not taking any enhancements from your primary class.

Then there's combos involving the splash, but those are just terrible for numbers of PrE ranks.


So, no matter how the trees are allocated, the 12/6/2 gets fewer possible ranks than the pure class. And the only way to even get close is to put more points into the Racial PrE, than either of the classes you multiclassed!

The problem is you are creating a hypothetical situation in which heavy multiclass characters are inherently weaker because thats how you feel it is going to be with no data to back that up at the moment. If you want to voice an opinion it is ok to say "I am worried that 3 trees won't be enough or fair to heavy multiclasses but i need to see", but stating "3 trees isn't enough for heavy multiclasses and pure characters are going to be better" has no real ground to stand on. Voice the opinion, make sure the developers hear your concerns but don't automatically assume that they haven't taken it into consideration already considering multiclassing is such a big part of DDO and D&D.

If they are going to be intentionally front-loaded to encourage deep multiclassing, that could work. But my guess, based on that Tempest outline, is that we'll get basically the same distribution as now. Tempest is loaded towards 12 levels now, and remains so in the new system. And under the current system, TierII+TierI PrE combos are far from clearly advantages compared to TierIIIs. There are some benefits, but also serious penalties. As there should be, but for those same combos to be worthwhile given the new system, those benefits would have to be far more.

But it remains that the system of enhancements inherently discourages multiclassing. I have enough info to make that judgement. I don't have enough info to definitively state what builds will or will not work, but it has not been my intention to do so (but I may not have always been clear on this). Just assess the properties of the system as currently described.

Ultimately, obviously, this thread is filled with speculation and supposition filling in the gaps. But of course it is. Without making some assumptions, there'd be no way to even begin to meaningfully analyze the system.

[dkyle]

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

Problem is that if Tempest keeps its prereqs, then Racial PrE Tempest is really only useful to Fighters. The overhead would be far too much for anyone else.

I think the bigger issue is that Racial PrEs are just way too powerful. They overshadow multiclassing and largely supplant. They actually discourage the iconic race-class combos they're inspired by.

I made a suggestion earlier in the thread on this, and I still like it: instead of simply providing the tree, make the Racial PrE count as "virtual levels" in another class that only count towards class-level prereqs for the designated PrE. I think 6 would be fair. If you don't take any levels in that class, 6 is all you get, so you could pick up the TierI bonus, but no further. If you do take levels, they'd stack.

So, a Drow FBIII could pick up TempestI (which would have no feat prereqs). Still a very nice bonus, but not ridiculous, I think. And a Drow Ranger could multiclass a little, and still pick up the Tempest capstone. I would also suggest adding a "26th level" racial capstone to encourage Drow Rangers to stay pure. The racial capstone would activate at 41 enhancement points spent, at effective minimum level 26.

[Cyr]

I would also suggest adding a "26th level" racial capstone to encourage Drow Rangers to stay pure. The racial capstone would activate at 41 enhancement points spent, at effective minimum level 26.

Suggested Capstone: Your character name changes to "RASALVATOREFANXXXX". You have won drow and devils online. You gain an additional 5% double strike chance when dual wielding.