Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aashrym]

Classes already would still be getting their level 20 capstones one would assume.

Why would one assume that? It's purchased with AP and there isn't a class tree. The capstones appear to moving towards PrE specific.

[Riggs]

Why is Charge out? Make it like Abundant Step, except you get a trip roll against everything in your path.

Rather it would be a new level of coding to have players being able to knock stuff over simply on contact.

Maybe it would be easy to code "You are now an air elemental!" - maybe it wouldnt, I cant really say I guess from a programming perspective.

[Meat-Head]

Since the number of posts now have reached a overwhelming number, I started a separate thread JUST TO SUMMARIZE YOUR CONCERNS. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=357609) I don't intend to have any new info there per se. Just have cliff notes of feedback here. Maybe it's a dumb idea, but I just want people who have gone for 2 days to have a clue what we've been talking about without spending a whole day reading. Not everyone can pike at work like I can.


Anyway, if I've missed anything significant, please let me know. Basically, I'm just copying from my post #1515 in this thread.

Thanks.

[TiranBlade]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

This is an interesting Idea however I see lore issues with this line. Here's my suggestion.

Warforged: Juggernaught
Halfling: Theif Acrobat
Elf: Arcane Archer (Aerenal/Khorvaire Elves) or Tempest (Valenar Elves)
Drow: Assassin (Scorpian Wraith)

Warforged who serve the Lord of Blades should be able to walk the path of the juggernaught, pretty simple here.

Halfings are more thief acrobat types, not assassins.

Elves are a bit Tricky, your dealing with 3 primary cultures of elves, and I would love to see some love for the Valenar Elves, their culture is around using scimitars and the like and would fit into a warrior dervish/tempest type. And the Aerenal and Khorvaire Elves would fit just fine as Arcane Archers, you'd have to work out a select one of two trees system from this or something, but it would fit lore wise into this role really good. And make my Valenar Elf very very happy.

Drow are something special and need to be addressed as Eberron Drow and not a Drizzt Drow from Forgotten Realms. They belong as Scorpian Wraiths in my eyes a variation of assassin. Also to help bring this line each scorpian wraith would have scorpian poison tattooing which would fit to this also. (Drow version of a dragonmark, minus the Spell Like Abilities, more bonuses based on type of tattoo.) It would finally bring the tribal aspect of the drow out that I see is majorly laking in the PC drow.

Anyways, that's my feedback on it.

TiranBlade, Time Killer

[Riggs]

Why would one assume that? It's purchased with AP and there isn't a class tree. The capstones appear to moving towards PrE specific.

That would be an argument for what many are saying - that 3 trees is too limiting.

Either all three prestige lines could access what the current capstones are - or else there should be a 4th - 'generic fighter', 'generic wizard' set of enhancements - the capstone being either available in the general tree - or else in each prestige line.

The existence of 'specialty' lines should in no way eliminate what a class got normally/previously. That would be akin to saying only Kensai could get weapon specialization, or taking away multishot from non-aa rangers.

The class capstones were an incentive to stay pure - not overwhelming, but something useful. Taking them away would create a situation that - other than casters, any melee class would be gimping themselves by going pure, 100% of the time - which is bad all around for a number of reasons.

**edit rereading the pm quote "A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

So while if there is level 20 pre capstones...going pure will not be gimp, it might in fact be the way to go unless all the capstones are weak. However that still means a fighter is gimp if not a capstone defender or capstone kensai for example - which takes away from the class really. Which is bad.

[Aashrym]

That would be an argument for what many are saying - that 3 trees is too limiting.

Either all three prestige lines could access what the current capstones are - or else there should be a 4th - 'generic fighter', 'generic wizard' set of enhancements - the capstone being either available in the general tree - or else in each prestige line.

The existence of 'specialty' lines should in no way eliminate what a class got normally/previously. That would be akin to saying only Kensai could get weapon specialization, or taking away multishot from non-aa rangers.

The class capstones were an incentive to stay pure - not overwhelming, but something useful. Taking them away would create a situation that - other than casters, any melee class would be gimping themselves by going pure, 100% of the time - which is bad all around for a number of reasons.

Three trees isn't too limiting tho. If we have 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, or 52 trees we still only have the AP to unlock and make use of a couple of them. That is the restricting factor, not the number of trees.

At least 41 in my main PrE only leaves an average of 13 each for the other 3 trees already. That unlocks the 3rd tier of enhancements available (edit: not to be confused with tier III pre) and there appears to be a lot more than 41 available per tree. It's more like 50+ per tree already.

Lack of AP to spend in more trees makes having more trees pointless.

[UniqueToo]

Sounds good to me. Just one major thing required:

Give multiclassed casters (any character with more then one class - and one has a blue bar) a [+caster level] enhancement line (actually one line for specialist casters (wiz/sorc/cleric/etc), another for non specialist casters (pali's, rangers etc)), since they don't have a caster BAB equivalent and none of the multiclassing feats are implemented.

Multicassing (not talking about splash builds for evasion) of casters should not be the joke it is in DDO!

[Scraap]

Three trees isn't too limiting tho. If we have 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, or 52 trees we still only have the AP to unlock and make use of a couple of them. That is the restricting factor, not the number of trees.

Not really. It discounts the benefits of a partial commitment to put you over a given benchmark, whether that's damage mitigation in any of it's flavors, to-hit, skill based, or enough dps to beat something's regen, in favor of an all or nothing approach, by it's very definition (you either take it, and have access to all up to the level limit avialable from your split, or you get nothing since you took a different enhancement line).

[Failedlegend]

Sounds good to me. Just one major thing required:

Give multiclassed casters (any character with more then one class - and one has a blue bar) a [+caster level] enhancement line (actually one line for specialist casters (wiz/sorc/cleric/etc), another for non specialist casters (pali's, rangers etc)), since they don't have a caster BAB equivalent and none of the multiclassing feats are implemented.

Multicassing (not talking about splash builds for evasion) of casters should not be the joke it is in DDO!

Hence why I think Elves should get Eldritch Knights as their racial PrE it would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and you'd have your gish build and make the most useless race useful again.

[Orazur]

Hello everyone,

First i'll say that i didn't take the time to read through all the 77 pages of this thread and therefore my talk about things that might have been adressed in previous posts. What i am going to say here is not about criticizing the work of ddo development team but more about expressing my fears growing with the gigantic changes the enhancements system might go through.

First thing first, the idea of a multi-tree-based UI for the enhancements is nice and it would be a really great improvement on the actuall interface.

But now, all the fundamental changes you are talking about for the enhancements system seem like a complete revolution which is about to hurt one of the strongest aspect of the game: the wide number of possible and imaginable builds accessible to a character with all their small variants.

I do not have proof that this aspect will really be hurt by this new system since some elements are a drawback toward it (splitting the enhancements in 3 trees completly separated, limitting the number of trees to 3 for multiclass characters...) while others are improving it (allowing characters to gather some abilities from more than one prestige class). But the system as presented here gives me the feeling that a lot of "unique" and not necesseraly optimised builds will disappear from the game... and that worries me as i would see this as a huge drawback!

There will also be many problems to convert the actual system to the new one and that i've seen mentionned in previous posts: the monk's stances, what bonus will/won't stack, etc...

And as i said, this new system will bring pros and cons... so i just hope this will be field tested on lamnia for a long long while before any update comes out and i also hope that the development team might consider the possibility that new system might be judged as no good in the end... (but then still try to keep the new interface as it looks nice )

Now a few questions i have for the development team and that could be commented by anyone

- Do you think your system will be able to allow new things such as multiclass prestige enhancements? There are many prestige class in D&D 3.5 that require to have 2 of the basic classes to be taken (wizard and cleric for Mystic Theurge, rogue and arcane for Arcane Trickster, etc...)

- Why do you HAVE TO limit characters to 3 class trees plus 1 racial tree? I doubt that characters spending points in more than those 4 trees will find any benefit in doing so and would unbalence the game since they will have much harder to attain the highest enhancements of the tree which will logically be the most powerfull? So why not letting people spend their enhancements points in as many trees as they can access if they want to?

- Why not having a basic class tree regrouping enhancements that are common to all prestige line of the class and then one tree for every prestige line? Of course this would imply that people can put points in more trees than just the 4 you suggested.

Lastly, i thank you for reading this post through and i ask you to forgive the many grammar and spelling mistakes i probably have made writing it as english is by no mean my first language.

[Feithlin]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

Just saw that, and I think it would really be great. That means a dwarven SD could get the same as another SD but with only, say, 15 levels (if tier 3 is still level 18). It would be better not to give things above what other SD can access though, to not make a given an absolute requirement for a given PrE.

[Aashrym]

Not really. It discounts the benefits of a partial commitment to put you over a given benchmark, whether that's damage mitigation in any of it's flavors, to-hit, skill based, or enough dps to beat something's regen, in favor of an all or nothing approach, by it's very definition (you either take it, and have access to all up to the level limit avialable from your split, or you get nothing since you took a different enhancement line).

The level limit of the split is still overcome by selecting a racial PrE, unlocking it, and opening up enhancements so that we can get a capstone on a multiclassed character or just hit tier III because total character level was unlocking those. Make dwarven fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 and that dwarf can theoretically still hit SD III, kensei II, and tempest I by spending 30 in SD, 20 in kensei, and 10 in tempest, and would still have 20 AP to spend on what not in race and class trees.

He gets extra abilities from SD, kensei, and tempest for free just for spending the points in the trees. More tiers than we currently enjoy and without cost.

The current system does not allow for anything close to this flexibility or access to higher tiers of enhancements. He might be giving up some enhancement trees but he gets to select from the best available, can access beyond class level, and gets build options not currently available.

That is no different than a pure or splash spending the same amount of points the same number of trees. Points in one will still lock out enhancements in another and there are 4 trees total either way.

[orakio]

Sounds good to me. Just one major thing required:

Give multiclassed casters (any character with more then one class - and one has a blue bar) a [+caster level] enhancement line (actually one line for specialist casters (wiz/sorc/cleric/etc), another for non specialist casters (pali's, rangers etc)), since they don't have a caster BAB equivalent and none of the multiclassing feats are implemented.

Multicassing (not talking about splash builds for evasion) of casters should not be the joke it is in DDO!

Your suggested system gives +1 caster level to your caster classes for any primary caster multiclass right? Like 18/2 wizard/cleric would cast as a 20 wizard and 20 cleric but be limited to spell selection of 18wiz and 2 cleric? And then 3/4 caster level bonus for semi casters (ranger/paladin/bard) and 1/2 caster level for pure melee?

Not required at all, part of the intent of redesign seems to be balancing the inherent advantages casters, both divine and arcane, are seeing over melee classes in game as is. Even without this change a necro specc'd archmage/palemaster wizard is going to be absolutely insane.

I know this is a personal crusade for you but casters are absolutely fantastic as is and i am sure you should get the ability to freely scroll cast any divine or arcane scroll just for going /1 into that class.

[Vordax]

I didn't read all the posts. The thread is growing at an incredible speed. Good luck for the devs to keep track of everything !

Many fear about loosing their actual build. This is the consequence of any change: be accustomed to it, what can be done yet could not be done in the future. But that isn't a problem at all if that opens more possibilities and since you can still TR into another build.

Some seem preoccupied by the problem posed by multiclassing with few levels (1-2 rogue, 1-2 monk, 1 barb, etc.), because closing a tree would be a major loss for a very little gain. As some mentioned, some enhancements could be general and not linked to a PrE. The trees could look like this:

--------  ---------------------------------
|       | |           General              |
|       | |                                |
|       | ---------------------------------
|       | |          |          |          |
|       | |          |          |          |
| Race  | |          |          |          |
|       | |  PrE 1   |  PrE 2   |  PrE 3   |
|       | |          |          |          |
|       | |          |          |          |
|       | |          |          |          |
|       | |          |          |          |
|       | |          |          |          |
--------  ---------------------------------

In the General part, you would find the basic enhancements of your class(es). If you have 3 classes, all the general enh. of these classes would appear in the box (so obviously it should have enough room for any 3 classes).

That being said, it's acceptable if we loose some options we have now. This way, ppl will really have to choose -- and thus make some more creative builds than today -- and not only stick to the dps action boosts, toughness enh., etc.

I keep asking for the racial PrE-like to not follow strictly the classes' PrEs but to be designed as something similar that can stack with the PrE.

The problem I see with your model is that there won't be enough action points to use the 10/20/30/41 points model for prestige levels and capstone, whereas if the general is broken out into each tree the new model works.

i.e. with the MF model you could do tempest III + capstone for 41 points, 9 points into racial and 30 points in kensai III.

With the "general" idea, you now have to take points out of the trees and put them into the general, so you would no longer be able to get to get 2 pre's to tier 3.

Vordax

[Scraap]

He might be giving up some enhancement trees but he gets to select from the best available.

Discounting the comparisons of now vs later, this is, I think were the core of the disagreement comes from. Yes, you are able to get a higher top-end in the new system. The problem comes when they inevitably balance for that top end, as they always do, and other capabilities fall off the bottom of the dice. That puts more pressure on beefing up supplemental build abilities, not less, and forcing focus makes that more difficult.

[kingfisher]

He might be giving up some enhancement trees but he gets to select from the best available, can access beyond class level, and gets build options not currently available.

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue? i have not heard a single reason why any character should be limited to 3 trees, please elaborate as to why, as opposed to pushing past the why and going to straight to 'but its ok'. because if you have a 3-class character you know that those little enhancements are very nice to have and help make the build what it is without making it op. so why should anyone have to give it up?

[UniqueToo]

Sounds good to me. Just one major thing required:

Give multiclassed casters (any character with more then one class - and one has a blue bar) a [+caster level] enhancement line (actually one line for specialist casters (wiz/sorc/cleric/etc), another for non specialist casters (pali's, rangers etc)), since they don't have a caster BAB equivalent and none of the multiclassing feats are implemented.

Multicassing (not talking about splash builds for evasion) of casters should not be the joke it is in DDO!

Your suggested system gives +1 caster level to your caster classes for any primary caster multiclass right? Like 18/2 wizard/cleric would cast as a 20 wizard and 20 cleric but be limited to spell selection of 18wiz and 2 cleric? And then 3/4 caster level bonus for semi casters (ranger/paladin/bard) and 1/2 caster level for pure melee?

No it would not be available to splash builds, requiring minimum levels for each level of the enhancement (probably levels 4, 6, 8 and 10 - AP costs 1, 2, 3, 4) - adding just enough +caster levels to make them viable. You would have a separate line available for each class if both are casters. Maxing both lines (+4 to each class for a 10/10 build) would leave you little AP for anything else.

eg: a 12 wiz/8 cleric may be able to cast as a 16 wiz/11 cleric with the full line(s). It would NOT give any spell slots, NO extra sp, NO PrE reqs, etc - just basic casting levels.

Not required at all, part of the intent of redesign seems to be balancing the inherent advantages casters, both divine and arcane, are seeing over melee classes in game as is. Even without this change a necro specc'd archmage/palemaster wizard is going to be absolutely insane.

I'm not talking about pure classes. Not the topic of my post and not relevant.

I know this is a personal crusade for you but casters are absolutely fantastic as is and i am sure you should get the ability to freely scroll cast any divine or arcane scroll just for going /1 into that class.

The suggested change does not include prereqs - just caster levels. Nor does it add more then +4 when maxed out (the same as practiced spellcaster feat from the books, but more customisable).

[Orazur]

The problem I see with your model is that there won't be enough action points to use the 10/20/30/41 points model for prestige levels and capstone, whereas if the general is broken out into each tree the new model works.

Why wouldn't the general part also give points toward the prestige lines? They could even give half points toward all three of them, that would not hurt the system...

[Chai]

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue? i have not heard a single reason why any character should be limited to 3 trees, please elaborate as to why, as opposed to pushing past the why and going to straight to 'but its ok'. because if you have a 3-class character you know that those little enhancements are very nice to have and help make the build what it is without making it op. so why should anyone have to give it up?

Those questions wont really be able to be answered until we see how they are fleshing out the details about how the abilities can be taken.

The fear of course is that (using bard as an example) scroll enhancements will ONLY be in spellsinger tree, to-hit and damage song enhancements will ONLY be in warchanter tree, and music of making / dead will ONLY be in virtuoso tree. A multiclass bard then who wants all of those is now limited to their racial tree and cant take enhancements from other class trees they multiclassed into due to having to use each bard PRE tree to gain abilities they wanted.

Your question is valid, because if it ends up being the way I outlined in my example, the new system will be MORE LIMITING than it is now. Why spend all this dev time to create a system that is more limiting than the one currently in place.

[kingfisher]

Your question is valid, because if it ends up being the way I outlined in my example, the new system will be MORE LIMITING than it is now. Why spend all this dev time to create a system that is more limiting than the one currently in place.

exactly