Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Riggs]

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

So when can we expect to see a 100+ str character then? Day 1 of the new release?

The game absolutely does not need more stacking stat bonuses. Because for every +1 to dex out in the game there is +5 str bonuses floating around.

[Razcar]

This does once again create a problem with multi class though. 13/6/1 acrobats are fairly common and will probably want kensai out of their 6 ftr levels and that means either they take the sneak attack dmg line and lose any monk stuff and racial stuff too or they miss out onthat dmg. I really don;t like the 3 panel limit.

Yes, but bear in mind that that split is used partly (yes, not only) because there is no Tier III Acrobat at the moment. PrE's are now in many cases so powerful that they determine class splits, and if there's no Tier III a deep splash with something else can be great.

If we now will get Tier III for most existing PrEs, and many more to boot, that will make many old builds less attractive - but the reason some of those builds existed in the first place may have been because we had a very incomplete offering of PrEs and tiers. So it's somewhat of a champagne problem, in my view. Better (hopefully), and more (definitively), options may make the builds we made with the old limited building blocks look bad in comparison. But so what, if the new ones are more fun.

Regardless, its too hard to judge anything w/o more information. As all any of us can do is speculate. I'm glad these plans are being shared with us. But w/o seeing the full picture its not very productive to get too excited or too depressed over.

Yes, the new/changed Enhancements may very well make the possible loss of the Enhancements from a small splash less of an issue. And anyway, usually you splash 1 or 2 levels for core class abilities, not for an Enhancement or two.

[Riggs]

"Quote:
If I do a Barbarian/Fighter Multi-class, would the Fighter and Barbarian Toughnesses stack with one another? "

Probably. I'm trying to avoid having selections made in one tree lock out enhancements in another.

In the space of one thread the excitement level went up - and is now going back down.

because apparently the insane power creep is not over and making quadruple pre with all stacking bonuses will be the new thing.

The new tank will be a 500% amp 1500 hp tank,probably needing 150 ac to avoid getting in in whatever raid comes out after this stacking monstrosity occurs, and the new dps will be a triple crit ravager/kensai/fb with 100 str and doing x10 on crits with the stupid esos for 200 base damage, 800 point normal crits, 2000 point fb crits on a 18-20, and 3000 points on stunned mobs - because 100 str with +10 tactics dc should stun pretty easy no?

Epic throwing dagger that does some poison damage doesnt seem very epic now does it.

Versatility was a great idea - raising the benchmarks of what people could get in a game already infected with 5 years of power creep will be an extremely bad idea.

[red_cardinal]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

I mock at your mockup. It's junk on which you'll spend half a year to make and then it will work bad.
This game is far to important to muck it up with mockups.

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]
Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue]

THIS WAS PROMISED! This is what players want.

1. Take *CURRENT* enhancement GUI.
2. Do your bonsai-fu on it to cut scrolling,
2.1. Group leaves (show them as icons with mouseover tooltip description),
2.2. Cut branches - If there exists in multiclassed build "Rogue wand and scroll mastery I, II, III" and "Bard wand and scroll mastery I,II" - show only "Scroll mastery I, II, III"
3. Finish all the promised prestiges and test them in gameplay,
4. Add some fixes from known issues list,
5. Release it on Lammania before end of February so you get feedback from players,

After that do some quest pack with 3-4 quests so Fernando can look cool at PAX and have his salesman smile on!

[Xoltaz]

it will be hard fighting through all of this pages for an answer - i've read the devpostings hear, but couldnt find it out yet.

What happens to Monks? They have several stances and esp. Void-strikes. Will they fit in each each PrE-Tree or or will get monks another 'General'-Tab, where they can select stuff like that (which would mess with the racial + 3 pre-tabs)

However it would be somewhat likely to have the 'monk-general'-tab replace the PrE you can't take because you took the other feat (if you took path of the harmonious balance then the ninja spy might be replaced and vice versa)

but it's just assumptions. Was it answered already or any hints on that?

[red_cardinal]

I understand the need to go and do new stuff. Old missing pieces of puzzle is new stuff and HAS to fit in. There is no time to waste on implementing Age of Conan/WoW graphical talent trees with most reused or new icons.

I don't care about GUI, I care about content. Prestige enhancements are content. New adventure packs are content. IMHO, I wouldn't revamp the whole enhancement system, I'd rather improve it a bit and add what's missing. The less time you guys waste on it, the better. Because, you're already late with it. No need to admit anything. Doing unfinished things will suffice.

If scrolling is the only problem why GUI should be changed so drastically, then find a way to conserve space in existing GUI.

Oh, and... GUI sucked the first time I've seen it. But, it's gameplay that's important. With current GUI I'm content. If you revamp enhancement GUI as you say you will, then players will expect to revamp 'dress code' - no more one-piece armor. We want armbands, trinkets, belts, boots visible! In inventory space and on character. Now tell me, how much useless work is that?

[Thrudh]

Were those interesting new things added to those PrEs, or where they a creative combination of parts put together in a novel way? That's what I'm primarily concerned about with the three-tree limit. That all the "cool stuff" will be purely developer created, because our options to combine things in novel ways will be so starkly limited Splashes become less attractive since those few enhancements can't possibly be worth giving up a whole tree. Even 6 deep becomes less attractive.

If there's only three trees, and no generic class list, I fully expect to see every build with 1 Racial PrE tree, and 2 trees from an 18 or 20 main class. Races, given a base class and build goal, will be completely obvious choices. Splashes will be the only practical multiclasses; only for feats/evasion, never for enhancements. I doubt a 6 or 8 multi will see the light of day outside of flavor builds. Once Ninja Spy is finished, and I can access Stalwart Defender without fighter levels, I highly doubt I will be able to justify my Fighter 12/Monk 8 anymore over a Monk 20.

I would ask that you consider very carefully whether the three tree limit truly makes the game better, or if it's more about a clean UI. I know "choices" are good game design. But when it's a choice of a 2 or 6 level deep tree, vs a 12, 18 or 20 level deep tree, is the choice really anything but obvious? And that obvious choice ends up negating the less obvious choice of which enhancements to actually take from those splash/6-deep trees.

This is a great post. Please read it again, devs... 3 class characters seem like they will be very hurt by this change. Very difficult to fit in 2 extra classes on a build if you have to spend points into 2 PrEs on your "main" class, leaving only one PrE slot for your remaining two classes.

[Thrudh]

I was in the middle of a post and hit preview, then accidentally deleted it. (My Forum-Fu is weak tonight!) But LeLoric sums up what I was writing pretty well.

Favored Damage is critical to some builds currently as the best way for Rangers to get additional damage, but with the new system there are new channels to get that sort of thing. Arcane Archers will be able to tier up their imbues. Tempests will have a little something as well to ramp up their damage from the new Dervish style enhancements.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Most rogues like to be able to sneak attack, haste boost, and disable/open. If you spread those enhancements among the different PrEs, then rogues will have a hard time splashing even one other class, let alone two.

[red_cardinal]

I admire the courage to hire new folk and to make this game better. But, in a way it's to late to change some stuff:
- overall graphics and animation quality - this is a death wish - you won't render all models again and again just to add a few hundred polygons - engine is quite old,
- do radical GUI changes - this isn't needed, you can fix a detail like resizing character sheet - but even that can take a week to do - sacrificing half a year on a new enhancements GUI is a bad investment,
- removing old content and replacing it with a new one - I mean, creating entirely new new quest packs and removing old ones out - undoable and not needed.

Best would be to finish what you started, fix what you broke and add some new adventure packs as you usually do, only this time focus more on finishing the unfinished and fixing the broken.

"Kobold remember Waterworks!"

p.s. I spent a half a day to write this stuff... Man, I'll have to work on Saturday. :P

[Razcar]

THIS WAS PROMISED!

Maybe you should tone down your entitlement a bit. I'm happy we are getting the PrEs this year, as opposed to over 3 more years.

If scrolling is the only problem why GUI should be changed so drastically, then find a way to conserve space in existing GUI.

I seriously doubt a lack of screen space is the only reason for why they have suggested to limit the amount of trees. It is no problem making tabs, or scrolling windows.

[red_cardinal]

I would ask that you consider very carefully whether the three tree limit truly makes the game better, or if it's more about a clean UI. I know "choices" are good game design. But when it's a choice of a 2 or 6 level deep tree, vs a 12, 18 or 20 level deep tree, is the choice really anything but obvious? And that obvious choice ends up negating the less obvious choice of which enhancements to actually take from those splash/6-deep trees.

QFT

Splashing character classes to get prestige class bonuses is the multiclassing philosophy right now. Changing that damages the game.

[red_cardinal]

Maybe you should tone down your entitlement a bit. I'm happy we are getting the PrEs this year, as opposed to over 3 more years.

You missed the point. What was promised are the missing pieces of the puzzle. With this, they aren't fitting the missing pieces in, they're changing the puzzle. How many puzzle pieces will miss in the new puzzle?

Also, while I do have some optimism about this, worries strike me more.

[Theolin]

After reading even more of this thread

I do NOT think that 1+3 trees is enough in many cases - most worried about the following Multiclasses

Bard splits 16/2/2
Divine splits 17/2/1, 19/1, 18/1/1, 18/2, 13/6/1
Melee splits 12/6/2 or 13/6/1
Monster/Exploiter variants 18/1/1
Rogue and Monk splashes 18/2
Arcane splits 17/2/1, 17/3, 18/2, 16/2/2

I get the feeling that the 1+3 would undo most of these as possibilities
Even having a choice of 1+4 might not be right
These at the minimum should be carefully looked at to see if they can still be built

I would much rather have too much to choose from and not be limited to having being forced into conformity with everyone else, I like flexibility even if it requires me to read and comprehend and *gasp learn something.

I would most prefer to have all of the class trees available if I multi class into 3 classes even if its messy and difficult. *Please *Please let me choose what I would like to do and how I mess up my character

[Ungood]

THIS WAS PROMISED!

Maybe you should tone down your entitlement a bit. I'm happy we are getting the PrEs this year, as opposed to over 3 more years.

Yah, I kinda laughed when I read that Promised line, Planned does not equal promised. Formite Legends and Myths abound around these parts, be warned.

Seriously tho, I like this overall, but as others said, the multi-pre per class can make for some power creep issues. Not sure overall how far the creep would be so, I'm gonna take a wait and see approach. I think overall point cost with function as a limiting factor to people going going crazy with the PRE's tho.

[Razcar]

You missed the point. What was promised are the missing pieces of the puzzle. With this, they aren't fitting the missing pieces in, they're changing the puzzle. How many puzzle pieces will miss in the new puzzle?

Also, while I do have some optimism about this, worries strike me more.

You talk a lot about the UI. While the UI was messy, and you sometimes had to respec Enhancements with a webpage/list open (especially for MCs), that's not the main advantage I see with this revision - at all.

Instead there are at present loads of Enhancements that are totally pointless, priced totally wrong, with weird pre-reqs, and we have vast differences in Enhancement power between both classes and races. It is a mess. (Not to mention us having less than half of the PrE tiers.) A large and thorough pass through this is great IMO.

The only "questionmark" is if the nerf to 3-split splash builds is intentional or not. Maybe the devs don't like us splashing front-loaded classes like Rogue and Monk, and want to make that less powerful. Or maybe it was an oversight and they will allow more trees than 3+1. And I agree that specific racial PrEs would be cool, as long as they were for all classes (some [edit] races just had Dragonmark PrEs in the pipe, which was no good).

But from what I have read so far, I think there will in the end be more pieces in this puzzle than in the previsioned old one. Many more.

[budalic]

I mock at your mockup. It's junk on which you'll spend half a year to make and then it will work bad.
This game is far to important to muck it up with mockups.

Yeah, because you are ultimate arbiter of good game design.

Kick it down... you act as if you own DDO.

[Deamus]

This is a great post. Please read it again, devs... 3 class characters seem like they will be very hurt by this change. Very difficult to fit in 2 extra classes on a build if you have to spend points into 2 PrEs on your "main" class, leaving only one PrE slot for your remaining two classes.

So in other words multiclass should get all 3-4 PRES benefits ????? To go multiclass you lose some things and you gain something else . It seems about right the dev proposal .

It just opens more build choices for pures . Multiclass still have their benefits from the class abilities . Else you proposing pures to be nerfed . There are out there some Multiclass which are "OP" vs pures . No need to buf even more the multiclass builds.

[Theolin]

So in other words multiclass should get all 3-4 PRES benefits ????? To go multiclass you lose some things and you gain something else . It seems about right the dev proposal .

It just opens more build choices for pures . Multiclass still have their benefits from the class abilities . Else you proposing pures to be nerfed . There are out there some Multiclass which are "OP" vs pures . No need to buf even more the multiclass builds.

If I have a 8/6/6 why can't I have access to 3 level 1 Pres plus the racial Pre?
If I have a 12/6/2 why can't I have access to 1 level 2, 1 level 1 plus the racial Pre?
If I have a 18/x/x why can't I have access to 1 level 3, splash some in others plus the racial Pre?
I give up the higher levels for variety ... this may or may not be good, I would like to be able to choose that is all.

[krackythehoodedone]

I have two points both of which have been touched on.

1, DDO is a offshoot of the most iconic FRPG of all time. If you like the game is under the ''guardianship'' of Turbine and i think they should do everything in their power to keep DDO true to the original game.

2, I have spent three years perfecting and equipping an Old School Crit Rage Bowbarian. The proposed changes to enhancements leave me very nervous indeed even with the ''maybe's and ''possiblies'' from Eladrin later in this thread

[good_ole_corwin]

People have probably said this already, and I apologize in advance for not reading all the 49 previous pages. But looking at the mockup...

Really? Diablo II-esque progression trees that every mindless "meh-people-are-gonna-buy-it-anyway" non-descript game out there uses? Come on, dont tell me the game designers that created the DDO concept came up with this... DDO cashes in on being different and IMHO more complex and complicated than most other MMOs in the same league out there, but still playable by a rather large audience because the complexities are well-known, understood and accepted among RPG (computer or table-top) gamers (DnD basic rules and mechanics are general knowledge for most of your target audience). DDO fills a niche - I dont think its a small niche and it fills it quite nicely, and thats something to be considered a success by the producers, not something you need to change. You go on the dumbing it down road which the mockups VERY MUCH suggests is the direction you want to take it in, and you will stop filling that niche, meaning losing players that came to you (or rather, stayed) just because of that and not sure if youll be keeping any of the new ones you attract (because unless you make it into a WoW clone, it wont be dumbed down enough for that).

You want to simplify the interface? Great, go trees! But this definitely does NOT look like simplifying the interface, this is primarily simplifying the SYSTEM, and thats so, so wrong. Keep the current enhancement system, with its stacking and non-stacking and prerequisitting and limitting (1 PRE per class FTW) that Im sure are developer nightmares. But they are also RPGers wet dreams.

Please. Dont kill the rainforest...