Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Calebro]

My impression was that the enhancements in the tree would have level requirements, just like current non-PrE enhancements have. But we haven't gotten confirmation of this.

If you're right, that boosts the viability of splashes quite significantly. Deeper multiclasses as well, but to less of an extent.

Even then, giving up a PrE worth of bonus enhancements will be a big cost.

We don't know yet. The implication is that some will and some will not, but the word "can" makes it vague enough that we're not sure yet. They probably will, would be my guess.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

[Darkrok]

First of all, to the dev's: Thank you for the outstanding communication. This is an ambitious effort and it sounds like unlike some changes in the past we are actually early enough in the process to have the opportunity to communicate and affect some change.

Now, my plea. It's a small thing but it will make a big difference for one of my toons. We're going to be able to take multiple class pre's now. I REALLY want to be a good teammate and take Spellsinger's sp regen when this goes live. But I can't justify it on a Warforged bard because it remains broken. Please fix this in time for the new system!

[dkyle]

This may not be true.

Just take a gander at the Half Elf Arcane Archers. Most of them these days are 12/6/2 builds ... with 12 being fighter, ranger, monk, etc.

If it weren't for the three-tree limit, I'd be confident that such builds would remain attractive. With it? I'm not so sure.

But a Ranger 6 splash is just about the best case scenerio, as it's actually about the feats, already, not the enhancements. So you aren't locked into using up a tree on a class with only 6 levels-worth of enhancements. I'm trying to think of another splash that deep that's not about taking a PrE, and coming up blank.

[Thrudh]

I don't think that 3 way multiclasses are going to be as negatively effected as some people may think. How often do you currently do small level multiclasses purely for the sake of enhancements? The variety of class enhancements currently for 1-3 levels in a class is next to nothing, and certainly no PrE's, so there really won't be any sacrifice by not choosing that tree.

People splash Rogue for evasion and UMD, but also for Haste Boost and +3 sneak attack damage.

Divines splashing a melee often pick fighter for Haste Boost, or Barbarian for Sprint Boost.

My 12/6/2 monk/ranger/fighter uses Haste Boost, Stunning Blow enhancement, and +1 STR from the fighter levels.

I'm okay with this changing, but this is a big change.

If anything it would increase the viability of those types of builds (17/2/1 or other builds that don't hit 18 in a primary class) by allowing access to more or higher tier PrE's than you had access to before. Of course we have no real information other than what was posted about tempests but, it seems odd to me think that those small splits will somehow be worse off for enhancements.

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

With only 4 class tabs thogh, the 3 class multi-class may die off. Seems to me that the 2 level multi-class will be the way to go, since the way it's described, many people will want two trees in their main class... (If Kensai has the STR boosts, and the Haste Boosts, my SD fighter multi-class is going to have to lock in both Kensai and SD)

Overall I am extremely excited to see what happens primarily because I have wanted to see the PrE's finished for so long and because rebalancing some of the costs of certain enhancements and classes has been overdue as well.

Me too.. I'm very willing to accept a large change in game-play for finished PrEs and updated costs on enhancements.

[NytCrawlr]

T...the new Thief-Acrobat and Mechanic trees are solid.

This makes me happy.

Might bring a friend back too.

[Calebro]

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

No. You'd still need 6 levels of Fighter to get SD from a Fighter tree. That much has been confirmed. The racial tree is the only way to get it all the way to the top on a non-fighter build.

[Cyr]

This is probably true, but it's a pretty big change to the game.

Yup, which will KILL existing builds.

This entire thing sounds like one giant slap in the face to existing toons the more I read about it. Everyone's power level is going to increase, but some combinations are going to be dramatically better then others.

So let me explain why Eladrin's description of the system will disapoint and annoy players.

Limiting different enhancements to certain trees is the main problem here. By doing this a player is forced to gut the versatility of a multi-class build whose main build purposes are often very well thought out to harmonize well.

It also causes an even more serious problem then potentially destroying multi-class builds of various types. This problem is comes from the wasted potential dillema. Essentially a player who has a certain build concept will spend points in a PrE tree that does effectively nothing for them when they hit 10/20/30 AP. Ranger is a GREAT example of this. Deepwood sniper and AA are mediocre on the first tier or so for a melee ranger. Yet, a tempest ranger is really going to probably want to spend some points on FE enhancements in the deepwood sniper tree. Rogue will suffer a similar problem with mechanic (which has a horrible PrE unless you are building a specific repeater build) and acrobat (again pretty mediocre unless you are building a specific staff build). Basically these sorts of sub-optimal losses from spending in PrE trees that grant you little to no extra benefit will mean that these builds will be sub-optimal. What is worse the only way that they have a saving grace is if special developer attention is paid in a precise manner to help them. Basically the player's builds become even more a thrall of the developers whims and time tables.

Now, the three class PrE limit comes into play. This further guts deep multi-class builds making them pretty much untenable as they currently are built. I am sure there will be a few which will be dreamed up under the NEW RULES, but existing builds will have a very hard time of it.

So now we come to the next wrinkle. Some general enhancements are being including in multiple trees and are going to stack. Any logical observer will know that this system being proposed is a power increase already across the board. Stacking though is a whole other animal. If truly critical things are put as stacking then you have one of two issues pop up...either you give half the benefit or so in both trees and force people to spend in both trees diluting their final build except in the cases of strong synergy which will be the uber builds...or you let them stack away with same benefits leading to large stat inflation. Stat inflation is dangerous of course, but another two points of strength is not going to break the game...another 50% electric damage might though...now really think about this logically...would electric damage be limited to electric savant??? well that would not work for wizards for sure...so wizards have archmage, wild mage, and pale master all presumably with electric damage...jeez that is more then 50% more electric damage...unless all of them can only purchase lesser tiers and every wizard in the game has to spread out their expenses in all three schools to be decent with any damage spell...I assume people see the issues here...

Now comes the final and most brutal problem. The uber builds and what they will look like.

Well we do not know for sure, but we DO KNOW that multi-class builds will have some pretty severe issues spending points effectively to get full PrE benefits. We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class. This is a simple math equation of 30+30+?racial or 40??+30+?extra. This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical. Casters of course will have even more reasons to remain pure/mostly pure under this new system having gained SD as a great racial option for defense if they want or becoming stronger more focused casters. So at the same time that multi-class builds will be taking it on the chin and many different racial builds are looking pretty weak there will be certain really incredible builds.

This does not seem well thought out. In fact, it seems like it was barely thought out as to it's effects on existing toons and it's distorting effects on the current game.

[maddmatt70]

I must confess that I am a little more nervous about some of the changes today then yesterday. My main character, Rabiez, is a healing warchanter. Will I be able to do that very easily with your new enhancement system? Bard Song Magic 4 will likely not be on the same tree as warchanter, but perhaps will be on the spellsinger tree thus making it more difficult for me to create that character with your new enhancment system. Its character customization like for characters like Rabiez that do not fit the typical mold, but yet are very effective that this new enhancement system makes me nervous.

[Cyr]

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

With only 4 class tabs thogh, the 3 class multi-class may die off. Seems to me that the 2 level multi-class will be the way to go, since the way it's described, many people will want two trees in their main class... (If Kensai has the STR boosts, and the Haste Boosts, my SD fighter multi-class is going to have to lock in both Kensai and SD)

No Thrudh. Every description we have been given indicates that class based PrE's will be limited by your level in the class as before (while racial PrE's will look at your total level instead).

[Hafeal]

ty both.

No this has NOTHING to do with 4e

Bad =/= 4e and honestly it doesnt deserve the reputation but too many people feel change = bad.

It bears no resemblance to 4E mechanics, at least not any more than PrEs already resemble 4E's Paragon Paths more than they do 3.5's PrCs.

[Failedlegend]

I think the more interesting option would be to create new sets of stances, for each PrE. Henshin gets the current Elemental stances, Shintao gets ones themed around the positive+elemental quasielements, and Ninja Spy gets ones themed around the negative+elemental quasielements. The general "purpose" of each stance would be similar (so Earth, Mineral and Dust would all be the tanking stance, adding to CON), but there'd be variation in how, specifically, they operate. Maybe Mineral is more about percentage bonus HP and healing amp, instead of damage percent mitigation, while Dust provides an incorporeal miss chance, stacking with shadow fade, with a higher percent than Earth's damage percent mitigation (so, better for avoiding physical attacks, but not useful against spells).

I REALLY like this idea. Sure the "General" tab would work but this would give us FAR more variety

If the devs were to follow this general idea for all classes/PrEs I'm sure it would work out (and from the Tempest+Dervish example I think they are)



Oh and somewhat related issue...I feel sorry for Ron this completely destroys his awesome character builder

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken. (..as far as what they can do. I realize the names and math of enhancements will change, go away, be improved etc.)

In my mind, your changes should allow all toons to do what they were doing before, the same or better.

I'm not sure that you can guarantee this, but a comment relative to what I'm suggesting might be a good idea.

[Vazok1]

I am against a flat 3 tree limit. I think you have had a serious failure of imagination on this point.
However I recognise that it is needed for balance issues, I also recognise (as I'm sure you do) that we splash builds with another class regularly in order to gain xx at the cost of xx.

For example, 12fighter/6barb/2rogue sacrifices the fighter capstone, tier 3 prestige, several feats and many other high level enhancements/class abilities in exchange for evasion (to an extent, depending on reflex saves), umd and tier 1 barbarian prestige/enhancements. usually the fighter would then pick up some level 2 rogue enhancements, for example damage boost, and wand and scroll mastery I in order to augment the other class abilities he gained from the 2 rogue. Given the 3 tree limit he would not be able to do that without considerable loss, kensai would take up 1 tree, barbarian another, then he would have to chose between a few points into rogue, or a few points into fighter/barb enhancements he wanted that were not in the kensai/barb trees.

I see why this is being done as we'd end up with some 8/6/6 split ruling all combining lots of damage boosting features in that set-up.

My suggestion would be instead of having a tree locked as soon as we put a single point into it would it work to have the tree lock once you pass 4 points in a tree? that cuts you short of the first prestige (at 5 I believe) but would still allow us to pick up those little abilities that allow us to specialise our characters in what we desire. and if you feel an ability is too powerful to be accessible by a 2class splash. put a 5 spent pre-req on that tree for that enhancement, very easy to balance, very easy to implement.

For example, wand and scroll mastery allows us to specialise more into self healing at the cost of 2 levels of rogue. fair swap in my opinion. however even that self healing boost is not worth it if you lose access to an entire other tree just so you can put that 1 action point in there for 1 ability. so that pushes us back into the norm of being healed by someone else and while I hate the term it is pushing us towards more ''cookie cutter'' builds under the guise of greater choice.

I don't believe I am the only one who really values these 1ap additions to builds which allow so much more versatility and fun with your character.

[Fegof]

I'm a little worried that they are changing the system in order to charge TP for enhancement slots. So as FTP you would have space to get Haste Boost II but to get HBIV you would need to spend cash to open those slots.

The non-paranoid part of me is eager to see what kind of new builds will come out of this.

[Ziindarax]

Yup, which will KILL existing builds.

This entire thing sounds like one giant slap in the face to existing toons the more I read about it. Everyone's power level is going to increase, but some combinations are going to be dramatically better then others.

So let me explain why Eladrin's description of the system will disapoint and annoy players.

Limiting different enhancements to certain trees is the main problem here. By doing this a player is forced to gut the versatility of a multi-class build whose main build purposes are often very well thought out to harmonize well.

It also causes an even more serious problem then potentially destroying multi-class builds of various types. This problem is comes from the wasted potential dillema. Essentially a player who has a certain build concept will spend points in a PrE tree that does effectively nothing for them when they hit 10/20/30 AP. Ranger is a GREAT example of this. Deepwood sniper and AA are mediocre on the first tier or so for a melee ranger. Yet, a tempest ranger is really going to probably want to spend some points on FE enhancements in the deepwood sniper tree. Rogue will suffer a similar problem with mechanic (which has a horrible PrE unless you are building a specific repeater build) and acrobat (again pretty mediocre unless you are building a specific staff build). Basically these sorts of sub-optimal losses from spending in PrE trees that grant you little to no extra benefit will mean that these builds will be sub-optimal. What is worse the only way that they have a saving grace is if special developer attention is paid in a precise manner to help them. Basically the player's builds become even more a thrall of the developers whims and time tables.

Now, the three class PrE limit comes into play. This further guts deep multi-class builds making them pretty much untenable as they currently are built. I am sure there will be a few which will be dreamed up under the NEW RULES, but existing builds will have a very hard time of it.

So now we come to the next wrinkle. Some general enhancements are being including in multiple trees and are going to stack. Any logical observer will know that this system being proposed is a power increase already across the board. Stacking though is a whole other animal. If truly critical things are put as stacking then you have one of two issues pop up...either you give half the benefit or so in both trees and force people to spend in both trees diluting their final build except in the cases of strong synergy which will be the uber builds...or you let them stack away with same benefits leading to large stat inflation. Stat inflation is dangerous of course, but another two points of strength is not going to break the game...another 50% electric damage might though...now really think about this logically...would electric damage be limited to electric savant??? well that would not work for wizards for sure...so wizards have archmage, wild mage, and pale master all presumably with electric damage...jeez that is more then 50% more electric damage...unless all of them can only purchase lesser tiers and every wizard in the game has to spread out their expenses in all three schools to be decent with any damage spell...I assume people see the issues here...

Now comes the final and most brutal problem. The uber builds and what they will look like.

Well we do not know for sure, but we DO KNOW that multi-class builds will have some pretty severe issues spending points effectively to get full PrE benefits. We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class. This is a simple math equation of 30+30+?racial or 40??+30+?extra. This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical. Casters of course will have even more reasons to remain pure/mostly pure under this new system having gained SD as a great racial option for defense if they want or becoming stronger more focused casters. So at the same time that multi-class builds will be taking it on the chin and many different racial builds are looking pretty weak there will be certain really incredible builds.

This does not seem well thought out. In fact, it seems like it was barely thought out as to it's effects on existing toons and it's distorting effects on the current game.

Agreed, and the more the developers continue to ignore posts such as these highlighting the flaws in their planned system (and even offering suggestions for improving the it), the more convinced I am that they're going to implement this as planned (and nothing most of us who have genuine feedback/concerns say or do will change it).

The Devs wanted feedback for their system; it would be nice if they stopped cherry-picking the responses that favor their system (or show a general acceptance for it as it is currently planned). Hopefully, they will prove me wrong, and more emerging details will reveal that my concerns have been over nothing.

[bhgiant]

DOOOOOMMMM!1!!!!!1!

We need to remember this is a very early preview, hardly something to draw conclusions on. The Devs clearly want our feedback and help on this or they wouldn't have shown us 6 months before it's set to come out.

If it's done correctly, a "general" enhancement tree won't be needed for each class. The separate prestige classes will have a specific focus in mind (Kensai = melee dmg, Defender = tank etc) so it may work. So if done correctly, multiclassing won't die but rather be enhanced (the devil is in the details as always, too soon to see). What I can't figure out is how a general enhancement tree go toward prestige requirements? If you choose one prestige that it goes into, you could spend a lot of points in the general line, have those points go toward an untrained prestige, and hypothetically still get a tier or two. Having a general enhancement tree would just confuse and complicate matters rather than make them more simple I think.

My thoughts as it is right now is that each vertical tier beyond the first will be every 4 levels, so at 4, 8, 12, and 16, totaling 5 tiers. Prestige horizontal tiers will still be class level appropriate every 3 levels, at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 and the capstone at 20. Is this correct?

[Thrudh]

We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class.

This is a very good point... I think the new racial PrEs may be just too strong.

Right now, race is a flavor choice. In the future, it may become way too important for builds.

This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical.

I would like to see them flatten out PrE benefits more. Power Surge at level 6 Kensai (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18). Frenzy at level 6 FB (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18)

[Thrudh]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken.

Oh I don't know if that's necessary or even possible with the scope of these changes.

[mystafyi]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken.

this is a pipe dream. many builds will be broken requiring folks to buy hearts of wood to respec.

[Thrudh]

My suggestion would be instead of having a tree locked as soon as we put a single point into it would it work to have the tree lock once you pass 4 points in a tree? that cuts you short of the first prestige (at 5 I believe) but would still allow us to pick up those little abilities that allow us to specialise our characters in what we desire. and if you feel an ability is too powerful to be accessible by a 2class splash. put a 5 spent pre-req on that tree for that enhancement, very easy to balance, very easy to implement.

For example, wand and scroll mastery allows us to specialise more into self healing at the cost of 2 levels of rogue. fair swap in my opinion. however even that self healing boost is not worth it if you lose access to an entire other tree just so you can put that 1 action point in there for 1 ability. so that pushes us back into the norm of being healed by someone else and while I hate the term it is pushing us towards more ''cookie cutter'' builds under the guise of greater choice.

Good post!

I don't believe I am the only one who really values these 1ap additions to builds which allow so much more versatility and fun with your character.

Exactly. I have splashed ranger or barbarian occasionally JUST to be able to spend 1 point for Sprint Boost.