Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Flavilandile]

Ok, I went through most of the dev posts ( and a few other ) since Page 5 and the tree picture...

Here are my comments and worries :

So here is the mockup that was promised.



A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

From what I left of the post above i have a few questions and comments :

Will it be possible to take enhancements from other trees than the 1 Racial+3 Pre ?

For me, tucking us in trees like that is putting restrictions on the customization possibility instead of opening new opportunities.
Unless you have decided that there's a bunch of things that will be common to all races in the Racial tree.
( Skills, Toughness, Stats, ... )
On the same thing tucking us in trees that way will make it impossible to have a mechanic master at sneaking... unless there's some cross reference with the tree of the Assassin, or you duplicate the sneak bonuses of the assasin tree in the mechanic tree... Or you add a Class Tab that has all the non PrE but Class specificenhancements tucked in.

Extra Song is in the Virtuoso tree for Bards. [...]
Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack

Follow up on the tucking us in a tree .
Typically : why couldn't I take any extra song as a Warchanter or a Spellsinger ?
Typically : why couldn't I take Dex I and II as a Mechanic instead of Int I and II ?
Typically : why couldn't I take the Sneak attack stuff as a Mechanic ?

Last what of those that doesn't want to follow a PrE path ?
There's some out there that don't want any PrE on their characters.

Now what of the Race/Class enhancement stacking ? ( Typically Fighter Toughness/ Race Toughness )

At first I was really interested with the idea, but since then I've become doubtful.

Time will tell, this is really going to be a make or break change when it goes live.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I certainly like the look of the approach. However, I am a tad worried about its application toward casters. With a caster, a varied number of spells are needed to effect mobs with varying blanket immunities. If they are forced to choose from three laid out lines, then the ability to buff the necessary occasional odd spell in their list necessary to fight say a lich could be seriously curtailed, unless they open a line for that one mob type (which seems very inefficient).

Perhaps giving players some freedom to program some or all spots in a given tree would help here. For example, some fire savants may want to take a few buffs to ice (as is the case currently in game). If they have the ability to add some ice buffs to their fire tree then this same situation can be achieved with a tree approach.

Again why is the limit to three trees necessary?

This is an interesting point. Sorcerers must have more than 3 trees as there is already 4 PrE's. Will they be an exception or will this PrE get an overhaul?

Wizards should be easier, I mean, just have a Wild Mage, Archmage and Palemaster Tree. I expect to see most elemental lines feature at least somewhat in all trees with some obvious ones getting more in each.

Archmage: Force, moderate cold/acid/fire/lightning
Palemaster: Negative, major cold/lightning? minor fire/acid
Wild Mage: Fire (BURN!), Acid (MELT!), moderate cold/lightning (or maybe major for all 4 but no force)

Something like this? Then if you want maximum in a particular line you'll be taking points from all 3 lines which will lock out your racial tree.

[Anneliese]

So, lets take some deep-splashed builds with 3 classes (maybe 7/7/6).

In this new system, their current APs could be from _10_ trees. (1 race, 3 per class)

Are we locked into just 4 trees?


------------------------------------

Personally I think you should do the following with the new system:

#1 If two enhancements do the same, then they should count for both trees. Also if one enhancement is better, let it also count for the weaker one of another tree (i.e. bard scroll mastery II also counts as cleric scroll mastery II)

#2 If I can take an enhancement now without any prereqs beside APs spent, then that should also be possible in the new system. To use something posted above, imagine the sneaking line being deep into assassin, even tho currently any rogue can take it. It means that a mechanic could no longer take the full sneaking line, since he would have to take a lot of APs he doesnt want.

An easy way to fix that would be to allow "Class levels" to replace "APs spent" as an alternative. So, to take the above example, if I want the sneaking line as a rogue, I could select it just like now, but if I want to take it as a fighter, I have to invest X points in the assassin line first. (The only exceptions for that would be PrE specific abilities and the PrE capstone)

#3 No restrictions on amounts of trees. If I can build something now, I want to build it in the future as well.

[red_cardinal]

Or will there be a separate Prestige class capstone to the pure class capstone?

This. /signed

Make capstone available according to a specific prestige. Tempest gets its own, Deepwood gets its own, AA gets its own.

[red_cardinal]

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

I'd rather much more see effective implementation of prestige classes in the current tree GUI with minor modifications to preserve space and reduce scrolling. Totally new GUI doesn't really interest me as it doesn't affect the GAMEPLAY.
And it's all about GAMEPLAY, when it comes down to enhancements, NOT GUI.

Let mockup screens stay a mockery, and let prestiges reform be in existing/slightly graphically modified trees.

[red_cardinal]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

Well, I posted 2-3 screenshots on how to render existing trees to conserve space and reduce scrolling. The main point here, where enhancements and prestiges come in is TO MAKE THEM GAMEWISE VIABLE, not to change GUI so it's all pretty and fluffy.

I say this because I think you'll be playing around with GUI more than doing what players want for GAMEPLAY.

GAMEPLAY > GUI (period)

Just make minor improvements on GUI which are effective, not a total revamp. I'd much rather see all prestiges done

[red_cardinal]

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

Racial and prestige bonuses should stack as it is by now.
Prestige and prestige bonuses shouldn't stack.

A bad analogy:
If your agile by your nature and that can be enhanced by some practice - sure - have a racial +2 to DEX.
And if somebody teaches your ballet (acrobat :] ) your DEX score should be increased for +2 because you maxed out your ability to twirl/jump around/roll over/whatever from your profession.

You shouldn't have two prestige non-racial 'professions'. If you could have them, stat bonuses shouldn't stack. That would lead to inflation.

[Riggs]

Cringing/Drooling over the possibilities from an AM/PM necro/enchantment wizard. Epic+ DCs in two schools with increased HP and SP? Yes please! (Spell Focus: Necromancy + Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy to qualify for both PrEs! Double down on Necromancy SLAs and DC bonuses!)

This is exactly what I meant when stuff should NOT STACK.

Or else what will happen is not "omg I am so uber now!", what will happen is new high level monsters will get yet another increase in saves so you HAVE to have a double pre to land any spells - and some plain old first life archmage will have 99% of their necro spells fail.

There should be multiple ways to get a bonus to spell dc, not several stacking ways to boost the same dc.

And re talk about epic Lob and tanks - the fact that people are talking about 100+ ac and 1000+ hp and it still barely helps (or the ac not at all) is just stupid already - if any of this cross pre stuff stacks key metrics - the game is just going to get even more stupid at high level it is not even funny.

[Riggs]

I've tanked plenty of nLOBs on Argo (I even have somewhat of a rep for inventing how to tank him). On epic it is not doable though. I posed the question to Rachna in her build thread with no response. We have one on Argo who tanks elob with a WF but you are required to be a monk splash fighter with pally PLs and stacked heal amp gear and enhancements. In other words there is only 1 viable build for tanking if you are WF and turbine has ruined the race altogether. Really now, a p2p flavor race? Come on turbine. Reduce the base heal penalty to 20% instead of 50 would be my vote. It also speaks to poor design when there is only 1 way to tank the guy, which is DR and heal amp. What happened to AC? My WF AC stalwart is getting the turbine shaft here. Also: where are the other items with heal amp 30? Only claw gloves. Really?

Yeah healing used to be a key factor, now healing matters less than having massive healing amp. -50% healing was ok when stuff wasnt hitting for hundreds of points of damage and other various types of massive damage. Dont have 100%+ amp? you dont tank.

[red_cardinal]

I'd actually prefer the Racial PrEs be relatively minor, but unique PrE options, than copies of class PrEs.

Racial prestiges should be attained 2 levels later than class ones.

[Riggs]

The Feat and AP costs might not make the 800+ HP WF archmage/Stalwart a reality . . . but I gotta say I think WF having Kensai as the option is kinda cool and works for machines build for war.

Kensai/monk is pretty natural overlap for flavor alone.

[Riggs]

mmm Ravager.. Here's my ideas, trying to use your new 1,1,1,1,1 model:

Ravager I:
.....

Benefits:
Pain Touch: Your melee attacks gain +1 Weapon Die. If your unarmed you instead gain +1d8 bludgeoning damage on melee strikes.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut I:
A special melee attack that deals an additional 1d6 evil damage over time. Also inflcits a 1d4 constitution penalty. Works similar to the current Ravager item damage over time effect: 15 second duration, deals damage every 2 seconds. Can be stacked up to 3 times for a total of 3d6 evil damge per 2 seconds, and 3d4 constitution penalty. The contitution debuff instead lasts 1 minute and works a debuff - thus works on all bosses and is useful for lowering raid bosses fort saves to meld well with the (required) improved sunder.
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Aura of Fear:
Enemies within a doublewide AOE aura of the Ravager are shaken with fear. (Works as shaken does now: A shaken creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. )
...

lol.

A tier 1 pre that adds 5d6 (esos?) to base damage, 8 points of con damage per 2 seconds, that now works on raid bosses. Tier 1 eh?

No thats not massively overpowered at all. I guess I should play 5 barbs too.

[red_cardinal]

just thought I give a crazy example of using
- 1 fighter
- 2 from arti ?
- 2 from cleric ?
- 1/2 from human ?
that is a lot of trees 5 to 7 depending on how it gets counted but they are all necessary to make this build even 1/2 decent ... I just don not see how this could translate into the new system and still be possible

Just something to think about

edit: I am still messing with enhancements this is just the latest effort as I play around but should give an idea

Yes. That's a little to much flexibility. And in that forest, nobody would see a tree. You'd actually have to look for
a specific tree, which is nice. Not all builds would be viable, but if the emphasis here is on experimenting, well, such a system gives you that.

[Riggs]

Here's a suggestion that would allow the people who have legacy enhancements to keep them, and provide additional functionality for the future. Before anyone slams me for being interested only in myself: I have no toons in this situation, but I do know several people who do.

Before this update, create an NPC who, if you have the Critical Rage enhancement line, will give you a Token of Feat: Legacy Critical Rage. After the update, this same NPC will accept that token and give the player the feat Legacy Critical Rage. Under the new scheme, the Critical Rage enhancement would have Requires feat: Legacy Critical Rage (and anything else originally required, such as level 12 Barbarian, etc). This puts only a small onus on the players: visiting this NPC both before and after the proposed update, but lets them keep what they have earned.

Not only does this solve the problem of not screwing over the customers who have been subscribers for years, and held onto their enhancement line, but would allow for future expansion. For one thing, any time someone with the Critical Rage feat wanted to LR or TR, they could go get the token beforehand, and redeem it afterward. You could add a warning to the reincarnation NPC that they have an enhancement line they will lose if they don't go get a token first.

Other functionality: suppose for example, someone opened up that Epic Lord of Blades chest and saw:

Token of Feat: Evasive

This tokens shows that the bearer has been successfully evading damage for a long time, and will allow you to use one of your normal feat choices to purchase the Evasion feat.

Not that the developers would want to let people just purchase Evasion for any toon, but you get the idea. It would allow for non-loot rewards that are incredibly cool.

Terrible ideas all around.

[quijenoth]

Ok only up to page 43 ATM but want to post this before work...

There’s lots of discussions about 3 Class builds losing out on options but what I’m seeing is they are generally asking for the same things, toughness, stat boosts, and class defining abilities such as sneak attack.

Addressing toughness.

Racial toughness 10 APs over 4 enhancements = 40 hps
fighter/barbarian toughness 10 APs over 4 enhancements = 40 hps
nets a player 80 hps for 8 enhancements (20 aps)

My suggestion is to remove fighter / barbarian toughness and load racial toughness in the toughness tree to 8 ranks and 10 hps per rank.

8 ranks for dwarf and warforged, 6 ranks for half-elf with barbarian dilettante 4 ranks for everyone else.

Rank 1 to 2 – no prerequisites
Rank 3 to 4 – minimum level 1 in fighter or barbarian
Rank 5 to 6 – minimum level 5 in fighter or barbarian
Rank 7 to 8 – minimum level 10 in fighter or barbarian

Overall costs if your keeping them similar to existing costs would be 2 APs each.
The same could be applied to saves allowing all races to improve on them but only monks, favoured souls and paladins to take them higher.

Add in a skills/abilities tree – this covers all the basic skill increases as well as any class specific abilities such as spellcasting enhancements, ability increases, and skill enhancements.

You could also add in all the class specific effects such as sneak attack and favoured enemy and simply lock them out without the appropriate class but I find this unnecessary and defeat’s the uniqueness of certain prestige lines. Remember you can’t multiclass and expect to have access to everything a pure has, pure deserve to stand separate. remember multi-classing dilutes your pure class abilities, so in effect they should likewise dilute the enhancement options you get by multi-classing.

For those saying "but i dont want to take a pre" simply put from what we have seen pres are now "PERKS" you get for taking the enhancements YOU want. They are free and no-one ever complains about things they get for free.

Now personally I like what the devs are doing, limiting the pres to 3 is only giving more freedom to the players. However there are KEY aspects of enhancements that do need addressing on a global scale. I think a skills/ability tree fits that.


Regarding the effect a fourth tree would have on the UI perhaps having racial tab switch places between the skills/abilities tab would save on space. Or have the racial and skill/ability tabs always showing and tier off the class/prestige lists.

[Riggs]

But the healing penalties in the modern game have really killed their viability. When you're going through literally hundreds of hjeal-scrolls a raid having a WF stalwart is just not practical.

If you make the defensive aspects that WF and dorfs can bring to the table viable in ALL levels of play this might be viable, but as it is now it is not.

Make the AC and DR worth something in the hardest levels, even epic LOB, and you might be cooking with gas, as it is now the best options are some silly earth-stance builds with such broken levels of healing amplification it screams "nerf meh!"

Yeah, dr lines right now are just absurd compared to damage taken now. "I can spend 12 AP on 3 dr - and then get hit for 120 - awesome."

No monsters, epic or no - should be doing that much damage that can kill anything under 127 ac in 2 seconds.

Monks get 'epic DR'...wow 10 dr. Thats awesomely epic - except against level 20 monsters, and epic monsters that hit for 60-100+ per hit. A DR of 10 at cap is close to having a 0 DR now.

The only viable melee builds that can be expected to stand in front of monster instead of behind it - is a mega amp defender with 5 toughness feats and max con and a stance to add 20% more hp and reduce damage.

People are drooling over the stacking possibilities - and more stacking is exactly what this game does not need. because most of the people drooling seem to forget monsters get powered up more than players get powered up.

[red_cardinal]

So, lets take some deep-splashed builds with 3 classes (maybe 7/7/6).
In this new system, their current APs could be from _10_ trees. (1 race, 3 per class)
Are we locked into just 4 trees?

I hope not. All class trees should be available. But 10 trees is a forest and every tree needs to be rendered. And for that you need space on the screen. That's overdoing.

I'm kinda against this tree system. It's to wide and dispersed.

Personally I think you should do the following with the new system:

#1 If two enhancements do the same, then they should count for both trees. Also if one enhancement is better, let it also count for the weaker one of another tree (i.e. bard scroll mastery II also counts as cleric scroll mastery II)

If a leaf from both trees is the same, render only one. There is no such thing as bard scroll mastery II and rogue scroll mastery II. If a character is multiclassed, show only "scroll mastery" for higher class level (ex. rogue 8/bard 6/x would show "scroll mastery" for rogue only).

#2 If I can take an enhancement now without any prereqs beside APs spent, then that should also be possible in the new system. To use something posted above, imagine the sneaking line being deep into assassin, even tho currently any rogue can take it. It means that a mechanic could no longer take the full sneaking line, since he would have to take a lot of APs he doesnt want.

Bonus = enhancement (eg. +1 move silently)

Racial and class bonuses should stack and be separate as they are now.
Ex. Halfing gets +1/+1 to move silently
Rogue class gets +1/+1/+1/+1 to move silently.
Rogue assassin PRE doesn't get + to move silently.
Rogue acrobat PRE doesn't get + to move silently.
Rogue mechanic PRE doesn't get + to move silently.

Prestige classes shouldn't grant passive bonuses to skills. Only character class should.

If that wouldn't be a design option and if Assassin I should add +2 to move silently, II +2, III +3 (for instance),
then:
Halfling would be able to stack:
- choose 2 ranks as a RACIAL bonus,
- choose 4 ranks as a CLASS bonus,
- get + to skills as a free COMPETENCE bonus.

That would be a little over the top. How would that scale in the current content and would it make sense?

#3 No restrictions on amounts of trees. If I can build something now, I want to build it in the future as well.

No, 10 trees is way to much on a human.

[Riggs]

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:

*Scimitars as finesse-able*
(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

Can we just ditch Finesse as a feat and simplify a huge part of the game?

A light weapon uses Dex or Str whichever is higher, not damage, just to hit. Raid weapons can still be there that add to damage as well.

It was a silly rule in pnp - now is the chance to fix it in DDO.

[honkuimushi]

My concern from the beginning was that trees would lock you into only being able to take abilities on that tree and there would be little or no non-tree abilities. And that seems like it's being borne out. My impression is that you'll be able to choose 3 PrE tabs from your racial and class PrE choices. So an elven Rogue would be able to put points in Elf, and 3 or AA, Assassin, Mechanic, and Acrobat. This woks of for pure classes, but multiclasses would likely be locked out of important abilities or even out of taking any class enhancemets at all for some of their classes. I think that a general class tab is needed and it seems like others have had the same idea. I had some different ideas about excecution though. I would like to see 5-6 tabs-- A racial tab, a general class tab, and 3 or 4 PrE tabs. Either a dedicated racial tab and 2-3 class tabs or 3-4 or PrE tabs in total with racial being an option,　perhaps with the limit of 1 racial PrE.


Where my idea differed from some of the others was that I evisioned that the general class tab would include all of the classes you have taken and be limited to lower level abilities and key class abilities. So for example, Sneak Attack is important for all Rogues, but Assassins are better at it. So 1 or 2 ranks of improved Sneak Attack would be in the General tab, and higher ranks would require the Assassin tab to be active. UMD isn't really more thematic to any of the 3 PrEs, so Wand and Scroll enhancements would be found in the general tab, with restrictions based on Rogue levels(or a combination of Rogue, Bard and Artificer levels.) Similarly, the current class ability boosts should probably go in the general tab. So, sticking with Rogue, Dex would be found in the general tab, but Int would maybe be found only in Mechanic and Assassin tabs. If 2 classes have the same stat, like Ranger and Rogue, the level required should take both classes into account. Class capstones should also be found in the general tab.

If you had Fighter levels as well, your basic, low level enhancements should be found in the Fighter section of the General tab. All fighters are concerned with using weapons expertly and some tactics, so the general enhancements should include at least one rank of weapon damage and tactics enhancements. For higher levels or something more niche, like AC, you would have to select that as one of your active PrE trees.

Elemental damage for Wizards strikes me as a similar thing. No PrE really is more thematically oriented towards a specific Element, so they should probably go in the General tab. Sorcerers are tougher, the Savants are heavily elementally themed, but Acolyte of the Skin isn't really. So maybe the Elemental lines should be placed in general, but have them count towards the most thematic PrE as well. This may require exclusive lines and maybe raising the required APs for certain tiers, but this could have some interesting synergies. For example, boosting fire damage is in the general tab and gives you advancement in the Fire Savant PrE, but taking Fire Savant I requires that you have no points spent boosting Ice damage. Improved Sneak Attack I is in the general tab under Rogue and gives you points in the Assassin tree, if you have it selected. Elven Ranged Damage is in the racial tab, but would give points in the AA and or Deepwood Sniper trees if they are active. I'd also like to see some racial variations in the PrE trees based on favored classes or abilities. So if the Kensai tree gets a +1 damage ability, maybe elven Kensais can get a +2 if they take a scimitar or long sword, in addition to the normal racial bonuses. So an Valenar Paladin with a scimitar can get a faith and a racial bonus and a Valenar Kensai with a scimitar can get the racial bonus and a higher bonus from Kensai than if he had chosen a battleaxe or a khopesh.

Also, I would like to see a little more variation in racial PrEs. AA and Dwarven Defender seems good, but I don't really like WF getting Stalwart. Kensai seems like a better choice with less overlap, but I really think Warforged Juggernaut was the best idea. But I see racial PrEs as a good opportunity for futer expansion, with multiple, exclusive options. That's why I thought that it may be a good idea to have tab just for racial PrEs. So maybe WF could choose from Juggernaut, Reforged, or Spellcarved Soldier. Fleshy races would have what is currently planned and maybe Dragonmarked Heir or some of the more specific Drangonmarked PrEs. I admit, I think Scorpion Wraith is a better choice for drow than Tempest and Assassin for halfling also strikes me as off. For Humans and half elves, if they can choose almost any PrE as a racial PrE, then they should probably be capped at level 2 or be a little more expensive than normal.


This will be a major change and it's hard to make judgements with as little information as we have. But right now it just seems too restrictive, especially for multiclassed characters. For example, I have a 13 Rogue/ 6 Monk / 1 Fighter 1 WF Acrobat build. The reason for Rogue levels are obvious, and I took 13 levels for the second tier of the PrE, extra Rogue feat and Sneak Attack. The Monk levels are for stances(especially Air), feats, healing amp, and the extra Sneak Attack from Ninja Spy. Fighter was an extra feat along with extra hp from a Toughness enhancement and tactical enhancements for my Stunning Blow. WF was chosen for hp and general toughness, 2-hander enhancements and tactical enhancements. In this system, Acrobat is a given. Ninja Spy would probably be my second choice, which leaves me with one more. Are all the enhancements I wanted in Acrobat, or are they spread out into Assassin and Mechanic? Are the stances and healing amp in Ninja Spy, or would I have to look at the other PrEs. In any case, I probably won't be able to take any Fighter Enhancements, which was the main reason I took the Fighter level. The enhancements I want may even be spread into multiple PrEs. In that case, I would have been better off taking another Monk level instead for more self-healing. Providing a general tab for all classes would make things a little more forgiving for multiclasses without penalizing pure builds. In fact, if general abilities are allowed to count for 1 or more PrEs as well, it could be an even greater boon for pure class builds. I wouldn't expect to see every low level ability in the general tab, some abilities really are more suited to specific PrEs and that may include some of the more popular enhancements. Boosts come to mind. But every Paladin should have a decent aura and be able to effectively Smite Evil. Every Rogue should be able to sneak, do traps, and UMD items. Every Bard should have a strong Inspire Courage. And every Ranger should be a real threat to his Favored Enemies. Maybe certain PrEs should be even better at doing some these things, but all members of the class should be able to improve their central class abilities.



TL,DR version-- I think a general class tab is needed to keep the variation in builds we have now. That would lead to a racial tab, a general class tab, and 3 or 4 PrE tabs, possibly with one tab reserved for a racial PrE. I'm not really satisfied with the new racial PrEs. I preferred Warforged Juggernaut and Scorpion Wraith. I would also like to see more racial PrEs like Reforged, Spellcarved Soldier, Dragonmarked Heir and PrEs for Specific Dragonmarks.

[Riggs]

So what? It's more "D&D" than all the silly robot dogs.

it's it's not like the servers aren't already infested with them, this would give them and avenue of viability.

Love it or hate it, RA Salvatore is a huge part of D&D lore. The fact that the most famous character in D&D lore would be an utter gimp in this game is broken, these are good changes.

A better fix would be eliminating finesse as a feat altogether. Light weapons use the best of Dex/Str. Then having a feat/enhancement that can add certain weapons to your light category - a drow might get scimitar, a horc might get longswords etc Fighters could take any one handed weapon and make it light say with points.