Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[dkyle]

Ok been following this for a while and haven't said much because frankly we don't have enough info to make a legitimate desicion one way or the other but I am worried about the 3 pane limit not only because of multiclassing but also because of stuff like Monk stances for example...is this going to be split up into different PrEs does ninja spy get earth & fire than shintao gte wind & water and mystic get i dunno fire and water...cause thats broken...there really should be a tab for stuff like that even if its only a few things.

Yes, Monk Stances are a big problem. I can see two likely outcomes:

1. Put them in Henshin. It makes sense lore-wise, but would be awful for multiclassing monks. It also means that all Monks would be putting points (and quite a few of them) into Henshin, since the stances are just too good to pass up.

2. Split them among the PrEs, as you suggest they might do. But what goes where? I'm not so confident that Ninja Spy would get Earth, since Ninja Spy is the Developer Designated "Rogue-ish" PrE, while Earth is the Developer Designated "Tanking" stance. Fire, in spite of its mechanical affinity to Ninja Spy, strikes me as a Developer Designated "light" element, especially given the Jidz-tet'ka bonus. I expect Wind to go to Ninja Spy (Dex going to the Rogueish PrE). Water is hard to say, but given the Jidz-tet'ka "poison" bonus, Ninja Spy makes some sense. I really have no idea what Henshin would get. Maybe Fire (given Oremi's set), and Water (just because the worst stance would inevitably be one of the ones that gets duplicated)? I think all of this is a very bad idea, though, as it shoehorns in certain combinations of PrE and Stance.


So, what do I think they should do?

Simplest option (at least conceptually) would be a General Monk enhancement tree, that all monks (multi'd or not) get free access to. Put the stances there. But that's kind of boring.

I think the more interesting option would be to create new sets of stances, for each PrE. Henshin gets the current Elemental stances, Shintao gets ones themed around the positive+elemental quasielements, and Ninja Spy gets ones themed around the negative+elemental quasielements. The general "purpose" of each stance would be similar (so Earth, Mineral and Dust would all be the tanking stance, adding to CON), but there'd be variation in how, specifically, they operate. Maybe Mineral is more about percentage bonus HP and healing amp, instead of damage percent mitigation, while Dust provides an incorporeal miss chance, stacking with shadow fade, with a higher percent than Earth's damage percent mitigation (so, better for avoiding physical attacks, but not useful against spells).

Why? I mean, SERIOUSLY, WHY?

I cannot think of a single reason why we can not change our enhancements as often as we like. If all I want to do is stand at a trainer and redo my enhancements, why not?

Beeing able to change a characters enhancements as often as you like does in no way break any game mechanic or anything. It is just a lame and annoying limitation.

And how often have you realised just as you closed the chat with the trainer that you made a silly mistake somewhere that you have to live with for 3 days.....?

Get rid of artifical and silly limitations like this

He said he was removing the timer. You just pay some more plat. You really think that's onerous?

Frankly, I'm not too sure about removing the timer. It turns things like Savants from a major decision that's supposed to be something you live with long-term, into something you can change on a per-quest basis.

I have not played any pnp 4.0, but for those who have, it *seems* to me that the contemplated changes to the enhancement system would move it into that direction, can someone familiar with 4.0 comment on that?

It bears no resemblance to 4E mechanics, at least not any more than PrEs already resemble 4E's Paragon Paths more than they do 3.5's PrCs.

[katz]

i am excited about this change. it is POTENTIALLY one of the better things to happen in the game since i started playing. but there is also potential for much fail and angst. i humbly request the devs tread carefully in their zeal to fix things.


that being said, i have a few concerns about a few tid bits that have been let slip. my main is a halfling 16 bard (warchanter)/2 rogue /2 barbarian. at first i was quite excited at the prospect of something crazy like warchanter/assassin/ravager (and here just a couple days ago i was asking how i could up my DPS, ) however... it's been mentioned that "extra songs" comes from virtuoso (currently planned. not concrete. i understand this). and caelbro made the observation of the probable tree origins of some of the rogue enhancements.

my current loadout gives me rogue haste boost, maximum extra songs (giving me 21 total with my warchanter TOD set), maximum song duration, and song of makers (WAY too useful in Cannith area). i'm not keen on the prospect of losing certain aspects of my favorite character. and i'll admit i'll be honestly p*ssed off if i have to LR/TR her to make her viable after this change.

some concessions i know i'll probably have to make. things change. i know this and i accept this, but some things i think are too important to lock away to be used only by one tree


i *am* giddy of the prospect of my dwarven pale master gaining stalwart defender, tho. she was already on her way to being an arcane tank. XD

[MaxwellEdison]

The two main problems I see are Sorcs and Monks.

Take monks for starters. The two current PrE's are literally polar opposites of each other. Would this new take on enhancements allow a Shintao Ninja Spy? If so, should it?
It doesn't really make sense from a lore perspective, and having ToD alongside Tomb of Jade/Dismissing Strike/Kukon-Do seems close to, dare I say it, gamebreaking. Do you have anything mocked up yet for this?

As for sorcs, the savant lines actively resist one another. Is the plan to split them into Fire/Water and Earth/Air with half the tree locking out the other half while Acolyte takes up the third?

[dragons1ayer74]

After more investigation and reading some comments and concerns I hope that these improvements are considered:
1. Make changes and have a "General Class" tree for each class so in the end a single class character could choose from (General Class, Racial, and up to 3 Prestige trees).
2. No ability is on more than 1 tree. A "General Class" tree will allow this to work and vastly help with balance.
3. Multi Class character would add on the “General Class” tree for each class taken but would still be limited to 3 prestige trees.
4. The Prestige trees are not tied to class level but might be tied to other requirements (X points spent in this tree, Base Attack Bonus, Alignment, Base Skill of X, Feat Requirement, etc).

[Thrudh]

The only issue is that a multiclass character might not be able to take everything he wants because it might be spread across too many trees. I'm not sure that's a real problem, though. Decisions are an important part of balance and creativity, too. If the class feats and abilities aren't enough to justify a splash without the enhancements, it might not be worthwhile in the future.

On the other hand, you are going to be able to build different types of multiclass characters than you can now. It doesn't seem like flexibility is being lost. Just the parameters of the options are being changed.

This is probably true, but it's a pretty big change to the game.

[dkyle]

Half-Orc: Ravager Monk?

On this note, please, pretty please, make Ravager work with unarmed, Devs, even if the ToD ring continues to not work. If not, please don't make it the Half-Orc PrE. I've got a vested interest in this, as not getting Racial PrE on my Monk would be really disappointing, but in general, the racial PrEs should be as widely useful as possible, to mitigate the shoehorning they naturally encourage..

Racial prestiges should be attained 2 levels later than class ones.

That's next to nothing. All that will do is discourage even two level splashes.

[macubrae]

My main is a capped fighter(below), but by far my favorite toon to play is my halfling frenzied/kensei/tempest. Some will say it's a gimp build, but I say it is FUn. He has the favored weapon bonus, greater TWF, and rages for tough fights. Also, with the new tree system, he will be impossible to build. Out of the twenty plus toons I have across three servers, he has leveled the fastest.

Self healing, hard hitting, foaming at the mouth, halfling dualing khopeshes and quikly approaching cap will be obsolete. He sunders and has tripped giants, has good saves and by the devs is there anything faster? Barb speed, +30% stride, House P amulet, and ranger haste boost. When he gets his boots of propulsion he's going to break the sound barrier.

He's my favorite for a reason and now all I can do is throw my hands up and wait for him to be destroyed.

Needless to say, I probably won't renew my VIP status. I've played D&D for almost thirty years, this is my prefered game setting, with the monsters I've fought since I was thirteen, and DDO has been great filler for the part of me that needs this entertainment. I guess my days are numbered. I like making flavor builds and making them work. Most are not made for epic content and I'm fine with that, I avoid the monotonous grinds. I just can't be happy with a cookie cutter, we've made the decisions for you, dumbed down(IMO) build. I hope that the people that you are pacifying are properly rewarded, from what I've seen in this thread, I will not be.

P.S. Just because you want 10 million subscribers like WOW, doesn't mean you need to be a WOW wanna-be. Alot of us are here because we didn't like WOW.

[nibel]

As I understand, getting one level in a class will open to you the whole 3 trees of this class. The only thing that requires more class levels are the prestige bonus.

If I'm correct, a 1 rogue splash should be capable to get the full sneak attack damage enhancement of the assassin tree. But if he do not get 6 rogue levels, he dont get the assassin bonus enhancement.

If the plan is that, then multiclass will be as effective as today. Maybe more. You'll do sacrifices of losing the capstone enhancement as today (Probably the 41 pts capstone requires 20 levels on class), but you can get more powerful enhancements than an actual one level splash can provide you. Eg, all barbarian 18/fighter 2 may get haste boost 4.

=========================================

Second, about racial pre trees: Did you thought of throwing it away and developing Paragon "prestiges" to cover if you spent a lot of points in racial enhancements.

Other suggestion to avoid the fight on dwarven/warforged SD is making the racial lines slight different than the fighter SD. Let's say... WF SD have squares for extra fortification and repair/heal amplification. Dwarven SD have a square for saves/HP. So, a pure fighter Dwarf/WF may want to dabble into their racial line even if it is only for a few enhancements.

[mystafyi]

That's next to nothing. All that will do is discourage even two level splashes.

I think you missed the part where he said racial pre's, not class pre's.

[Dexol]

Whilst im loving what im seeing and thinking up silly builds like Halfling Dragonmarked Light Monk Assasin and Radiant servant spellsinger i do think we have all overlooked the headache this is going to be for one poor man

Ron, good luck on updating the character planner!

[dkyle]

I think you missed the part where he said racial pre's, not class pre's.

Didn't miss that, but yeah, brain fart, still. Splashing wouldn't lock out the level 20 part of the Racial PrE.

I still don't think a 2 level delay is enough to make Racial PrEs anything other than a near-total replacement for deep multiclassing.

[voodoogroves]

Didn't miss that, but yeah, brain fart, still. Splashing wouldn't lock out the level 20 part of the Racial PrE.

I still don't think a 2 level delay is enough to make Racial PrEs anything other than a near-total replacement for deep multiclassing.

This may not be true.

Just take a gander at the Half Elf Arcane Archers. Most of them these days are 12/6/2 builds ... with 12 being fighter, ranger, monk, etc.

[dkyle]

As I understand, getting one level in a class will open to you the whole 3 trees of this class. The only thing that requires more class levels are the prestige bonus.

If I'm correct, a 1 rogue splash should be capable to get the full sneak attack damage enhancement of the assassin tree. But if he do not get 6 rogue levels, he dont get the assassin bonus enhancement.

My impression was that the enhancements in the tree would have level requirements, just like current non-PrE enhancements have. But we haven't gotten confirmation of this.

If you're right, that boosts the viability of splashes quite significantly. Deeper multiclasses as well, but to less of an extent.

Even then, giving up a PrE worth of bonus enhancements will be a big cost.

[Thrudh]

Splashing character classes to get prestige class bonuses is the multiclassing philosophy right now. Changing that damages the game.

Well it changes the game. Not sure yet if it damages the game.

Might be a good thing... I've gotten used to the 18/12/6 splits, but I remember lamenting the fact that all multi-classes would be built around those splits going forward.

If 17/3 or 16/4 builds become useful again, that might open up some more options for us.

[aerendhil]

oh-my-God.

I'm quite happy about that evolution but ...
It means I will not TR until it goes live.
I'd be too afraid to mess a toon because of a wrong levels split !

[Thrudh]

Instead there are at present loads of Enhancements that are totally pointless, priced totally wrong, with weird pre-reqs, and we have vast differences in Enhancement power between both classes and races. It is a mess. (Not to mention us having less than half of the PrE tiers.) A large and thorough pass through this is great IMO.

I agree that a full pass through enhancements is NOT a waste of time.. I'm very glad they are focusing on this.

[Thrudh]

I have spent three years perfecting and equipping an Old School Crit Rage Bowbarian. The proposed changes to enhancements leave me very nervous indeed even with the ''maybe's and ''possiblies'' from Eladrin later in this thread

They should have deleted that enhancement long ago... And you should have known that your character might someday lose it.

Good news is, Ravager may have crit range enhancements, so you might be much better off (finally able to respec your enhancements)

[katz]

Whilst im loving what im seeing and thinking up silly builds like Halfling Dragonmarked Light Monk Assasin and Radiant servant spellsinger i do think we have all overlooked the headache this is going to be for one poor man

Ron, good luck on updating the character planner!

poor Ron!

he's gonna have to totally reprogram

[Thrudh]

Why? I mean, SERIOUSLY, WHY?

I cannot think of a single reason why we can not change our enhancements as often as we like. If all I want to do is stand at a trainer and redo my enhancements, why not?

Because then a sorc could switch between fire and cold at will, depending on which quest he's doing next. I could switch from Kensai (for epic DPS) to Stalwart Defender (for tanking a raid).

Switching enhancements at will is just as bad as letting someone change feats at will or change class levels at will.

[Razcar]

Multiclass characters will surely be impacted under the proposed system. How much they will be affected will vary on a case by case basis.
That was the entire reason for this post and the conversation that followed. While the suggestion in that post would still be restrictive to a certain degree, it would be MUCH less restrictive than the current proposal.

I agree that 5 trees would be OK. Maybe have 4 trees, 3 class and 1 race, for characters with 2 classes (or less of course), and if you have a 3-class MC you will open up the 5th class tree.