Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[LeLoric]

That sounds like level gating and PrEs is going away if you are going to take two different PrEs all the way up. Unless it is the race/class allowances like current.

So is level gating going to happen still? I won't be upset, just curios.

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

looks like theres still level gating

[aradelothion]

a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant

By that same token, would a human FvS be able to go radiant servant as well?

[sweez]

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

Jyrja tanked a coupla WL eLoBs on his WF SD. Wasn't "ideal" but it worked. Also Buki tanked plenty norms on his WF 18/1/1 monk.

[Pwesiela]

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

This is where I worry. Can you honestly see an epic LOB taking any other tank if this is what's available? I've tanked eLoB on my tank. It's rough. Even at 1200 hp and 100+ac. And if I can get all that plus self healing and more hp/ac? I fear we get into the "one build to rule them all" WoW mentality.

[bhgiant]

This sounds amazing. The biggest/greatest part about DDO is the character customization/creation. These improvements will only amplify that, by a LOT.

-Putting things in trees decreases the difficulty of planning your character.
-Making prestige requirements "X amount in tree Y = prestige granted" instead of "take these enhancements in an exact order that you really didn't want but have to anyway ad nauseum" increases customization, originality, and flavor which is more fun.
-Opening multiple prestige classes to a class (whether a class prestige or race prestige) increases options which increases customization, originality, and flavor which is MORE FUN!
-Increasing options will decreases the number of re-rolls one has to do because you just realized that despite your hours of research, you didn't realize your build won't work the way you wanted it to. Less rerolls, less frustration, MORE FUN!

This isn't going to stop people from being min-max biased idiots in-it-for-my-epeen players who don't understand that fun to most people doesn't mean get the best lootz and do the most damage or urnewbgohooooome!111!! It does mean that there will be a whole lot less of them though, which makes me incredibly happy . The only thing wrong now is that I'm not going to have enough AP to make my Drow Assassin III also a Tempest III...

Edit: I just thought of something... I see a big downside now to going with a race and class that offers the same prestige line. If I go Halfling Assassin, I'm missing out on quite a bit of customization because I don't have an added racial prestige like Tempest from Drow. Sure they have the Halfling Guile line but that would hardly make up for it imo. Are you going to introduce a favored class concept like in PnP?

[Dreamshifter]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

From what we've been told, a Paladin might be able to grab RS, if Human. The cost? Lots of AP that probably won't help much outside the RS abilities, reducing DPS further. Will this replace Clerics? Probably not, but with a caveat.

It might replace some clerics, who really wanted to run a durable, self-healing Battle Cleric, but find the Cleric class (and FvS) to not be to their taste. Grabbing a Paladin with RS (with or without a Paladin PrE as well) might suit their playstyle better. And I don't think that's a bad thing. For those playing healing/casting Clerics? Heck no, this won't be nearly as good as a real Cleric, as a Paladin RS won't get any other healing.

By that same token, would a human FvS be able to go radiant servant as well?

Honestly? Probably not, due to mechanics. FvS don't get Turn Undead (Paladins do, even if it is worthless for anything other than fueling abilities for them), so they can't power the bursts and auras.

[BananaHat]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

[Dreamshifter]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

I really think SD for WF is a mistake, and a placeholder. I'm hoping they will change it once the real WF PrEs make it in.

[Cauthey]

Thank you MadFloyd, once again (!!!), for engaging the community on future design decisions. We love you for it! Or, at least, I do. *bro hug*

I'm not sure I'm that sour with the existing Enhancement UI. The biggest PITA is toggling what you have access to versus what you don't have access to, and then all of the scrolling back and forth.

Though, if I were to improve it, I would try to take a page from the Civilization IV (among others) technology tree UI.

With Civ IV, you could easily scroll to the technology that mattered (Bronze Working, Flight, Lasers, etc.), and click on it. The tree would automatically map you a "shortest distance" to said technology.

That being said, if I roll up a cleric, I've already heard about how awesome Radiant Servants are. However, being new to the class and enhancement lines, I have absolutely NO idea about how to get there. Oh! But this looks good! And clerics should do that...right? ...<insert further cherry-picking of the wrong lines here>

It would be nice if the enhancement UI had something off to the side on a panel that illuminated the necessary lines for the Prestige Class. You could click once on a button of Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, or Warpriest that would change the color of all the pre-requisite enhancement lines. Perhaps click on it a second time to spend all remaining action points to automatically take as many of the pre-reqs as you can afford to get you there.

Another great feature would be some way to permanently toggle to hide enhancements that you have no interest in. "Yeah, my Human can take the Constitution ability score buff line. But, I don't need CON! Hide it!" Now, you don't ever have to look at that line again (perhaps even through resets) until you click on the "Show all hidden lines" button.

[CaptGrim]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

Warforged Juggernaut!!!!

Please add this in, Divine healing penalties bull rush and all. (think abundant step with trip DCs on all mobs you pass through the hit box of.)

[CaptGrim]

I really think SD for WF is a mistake, and a placeholder. I'm hoping they will change it once the real WF PrEs make it in.

I agree, but the problem with place holders is the number of people you make upset when the REAL PrE makes it in and they pull the ol' switch-a-roo on them.

Leave it empty or finish it up right, Placeholders are bad unless you spam a big disclaimer on the enhancement window and that is about as unprofessional as ****.

[Artos_Fabril]

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

Cringing/Drooling over the possibilities from an AM/PM necro/enchantment wizard. Epic+ DCs in two schools with increased HP and SP? Yes please! (Spell Focus: Necromancy + Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy to qualify for both PrEs! Double down on Necromancy SLAs and DC bonuses!)

Will opposite element savants be locked out? Or will "Elemental Savant" really become a single PrE with 1 of 4 paths, but still allow a sorc to take a second PrE (Acolyte of the Skin)?

Has any thought been given yet to how this will affect ToD sets? Will they be "rebalanced" or otherwise changed?

Will monk PrEs be changed to allow shintao and ninja-spy simultaneously? If not, will monks be otherwise compensated for being the only (or rare) class absolutely locked out of one PrE by taking another?

[Dreamshifter]

I agree, but the problem with place holders is the number of people you make upset when the REAL PrE makes it in and they pull the ol' switch-a-roo on them.

Leave it empty or finish it up right, Placeholders are bad unless you spam a big disclaimer on the enhancement window and that is about as unprofessional as ****.

I fully agree, I'd rather they left it blank, if that is their plan. I'd hate for them to set it up, then have to annoy people later if they want to change it.

On the other hand, leaving WF as the only race without a racial PrE is almost as bad. Maybe they can leave SD in later on, and give WF (and maybe other races) multiple racial PrE (rPrE). There is a lore argument for both SD and WFJ (the Lord of Blades doesn't speak for all WF), but that kind of thing could be said of most other races as well (House J Halflings being the most notable). Have to wait and see.

[noinfo]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

I really like most of these options alot. My primary concern though is the Aracne Archer that is currently available to Elf, at the moment having this as a racial PRE is not an issue as there are no other racial pre available but this will be a further limiting factor to the race once others become available. While it can be used in specific builds it requires splashing for a blue bar whereas other melee currently do not. Fitting with the woodland theme I would like to see them have the option of either AA or Tempest with one locking out the other.

Drow Tempest is an excelent choice, though if any race needs a bump in power its drow. I would like to see something along the lines of Assassin as an alternate option.

[scoobmx]

IMO Warforged will not work well as Defenders at all until Repair Amplification items are added to the game, and at least some of those items are of comparable quality to the healing amplification items available today.

A Warforged Defender with 100% incoming Arcane healing and 101.4% incoming Divine healing (Healer's Friend 1, 20% amp item, 30% amp item) requires twice as much healing to tank a boss as a Human in the same gear (Human Imp Recovery 3, 20% amp, 30% amp for a total of 202.8% incoming divine healing).

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

I've tanked plenty of nLOBs on Argo (I even have somewhat of a rep for inventing how to tank him). On epic it is not doable though. I posed the question to Rachna in her build thread with no response. We have one on Argo who tanks elob with a WF but you are required to be a monk splash fighter with pally PLs and stacked heal amp gear and enhancements. In other words there is only 1 viable build for tanking if you are WF and turbine has ruined the race altogether. Really now, a p2p flavor race? Come on turbine. Reduce the base heal penalty to 20% instead of 50 would be my vote. It also speaks to poor design when there is only 1 way to tank the guy, which is DR and heal amp. What happened to AC? My WF AC stalwart is getting the turbine shaft here. Also: where are the other items with heal amp 30? Only claw gloves. Really?

[waterboytkd]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

So, I've been thinking about this more. First, Elves. Getting AA is a no-brainer (they already have it), but unless the requirements for AA get changed (like removal of SP prereq), it's also going to be a pretty niche choice (unlike Dwarves and Stalwart Defender, which any melee and most every caster will gladly go to). Perhaps, Elves should get a second racial PrE? Maybe Tempest as well (in D&D lore, especially Eberron, elves are big TWFighters, especially with their double-scimitars). Would be a little wild that elves would effectively get the same PrE lines as Rangers, but then elves are supposed to be quite rangery (again, especially Valenar elves in Eberron).

Also, as was mentioned, Drow are a pretty meek race choice right now (-Con, less build points/points chosen for you), so maybe you could give them Tempest or Assassin (Assassin would work excellently lore-wise as the Scorpion Wraiths).

To deal with them getting two PrEs, maybe you have the same system that humans will have that makes them choose one of the two. Or, heck, considering that elves and drow are largely considered the two weakest races in the game, just let them have both! They'd still need the AP to take both, but it'd open up some cool build options for the races that other races just wouldn't get.

Second, humans. Here's some input. Take it or leave it, however you feel:

You mentioned that class selection could determine what PrEs a human could have as his racial PrE. This would work well. Pick 2 PrEs per class that a human gets the enhancement tree for, but in order to start taking enhancements in either of those trees, he would have to "purchase" into it (maybe 2 AP spent on a base ability that's exclusive of the other PrE's base ability). Non-human (and non-helf) races would not have this extra cost (the benefit of not having this kind of flexibility). For example, if you are a human and take a level in Fighter, you would gain access to, say, the Assassin tree and the Tempest tree. You could only take enhancements from one of those trees, and your gate levels would be Human AND Fighter (so to get Assassin 1, you would need to be a human with 6 fighter levels). Cleric could get Angel of Vengeance and Hunter of the Dead.

Now, if you multiclass, you can gain access to more than 2 trees. Say you've got Fighter and Cleric levels, you would gain access to Assassin, Tempest, Angel of Vengeance, and Hunter of the Dead trees, but again, you could only take the base ability of one of those trees, could only get enhancements specific for one of those trees. This would give humans flexibility in PrEs based of their class, so you don't get useless PrEs for your class, and give multiclass toons the option of whatever PrE they want most/think is best. But I want to stress that the "slightly higher investment in Racial tree to unlock" can only be slightly higher. You don't want to make it so that human is a bad choice because the flexibility is too expensive (I think 2 AP higher, total, is about fair, given how tight AP can be). Also, if having a choice of 2 PrEs is too much flexibility, attach one PrE to each class.

Which brings me to helf. I honestly think Helf should be done in one of two ways (neither of which require a "gargantuan" AP investment): first, Helf should get access to a PrE based on their dilly. Each dilly has exactly one PrE associated with it, and, if necessary, new enhancements for each dilly could be introduced to make the PrEs mechanics function correctly for a helf of any class. I think this is the cleanest, and perhaps fairest, way to do it. NOTE: they would not gain AA anymore.

Second way: They gain access to multiple PrEs the same way humans do, only they also have the elf PrEs in their list (can still have a total of 1 racial PrE). This would be the same slightly higher cost that humans have. They would just get a few extra options (Tempest and AA). You could also make them choose between elf and human first (for 1 AP), which determines which PrEs they get to choose from (2AP), so they would be 1 AP higher than human for a racial PrE, and 3 higher than everyone else.

The big concern I have, though, is the use of the word "gargantuan". I can't stress enough how potent Stalwart Defender as a PrE is going to be. +6 Con and +20% health is amazing on anyone, sorcs and wizzies included (I know all the wf sorcs in my guild would try and fit it). Add a +6 Str to that and you have every melee drooling. The way I see it, the flexibility of human and helf would be the reason not to go dwarf. But if the cost for that flexibility is exorbitant AP costs, I don't know if too many people would find it worth it.

[Khellendros13]

I've tanked plenty of nLOBs on Argo (I even have somewhat of a rep for inventing how to tank him). On epic it is not doable though. I posed the question to Rachna in her build thread with no response. We have one on Argo who tanks elob with a WF but you are required to be a monk splash fighter with pally PLs and stacked heal amp gear and enhancements. In other words there is only 1 viable build for tanking if you are WF and turbine has ruined the race altogether. Really now, a p2p flavor race? Come on turbine. Reduce the base heal penalty to 20% instead of 50 would be my vote. It also speaks to poor design when there is only 1 way to tank the guy, which is DR and heal amp. What happened to AC? My WF AC stalwart is getting the turbine shaft here. Also: where are the other items with heal amp 30? Only claw gloves. Really?

Also tanked normal LoB on my WF Barbarian with Healers Friend 2, 20%, 30% and 10% ship heal amp.

[voodoogroves]

If we're doubling the class-race PREs (Arcane Archer ... Dwarven Devender -> Stalwart) then I'd like to see WF get something like Ravager or Occult Slayer or Kensai before Stalwart - unless there's amp-o-plenty options. There has to be a reason to use them as others have said. Kensai could be fun if the LOB faith spec. qualified you for Kensai in place of all the other feats. Then we'd see some tactics options on WF divine builds.

[Shade]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

mmm Ravager.. Here's my ideas, trying to use your new 1,1,1,1,1 model:

Ravager I:
Requires:
Power Attack, Improved Sunder.
5 points spent in the Ravager tree (would include stuff like improved ppwer attack, improved intimidate, sprint boost)
6 class levels in Barbarian or Half-Orc

Benefits:
Pain Touch: Your melee attacks gain +1 Weapon Die. If your unarmed you instead gain +1d8 bludgeoning damage on melee strikes.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut I:
A special melee attack that deals an additional 1d6 evil damage over time. Also inflcits a 1d4 constitution penalty. Works similar to the current Ravager item damage over time effect: 15 second duration, deals damage every 2 seconds. Can be stacked up to 3 times for a total of 3d6 evil damge per 2 seconds, and 3d4 constitution penalty. The contitution debuff instead lasts 1 minute and works a debuff - thus works on all bosses and is useful for lowering raid bosses fort saves to meld well with the (required) improved sunder.
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Aura of Fear:
Enemies within a doublewide AOE aura of the Ravager are shaken with fear. (Works as shaken does now: A shaken creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. )


Sub enhancement Cost 2 AP:
Visage of Terror:
The ravager has plumbed the true depths of horror and hopelessness.
Once per day (and it recharges once every 120 seconds) the ravager can trigger a special melee attack that deals normal damage plus acts as a spell like ability similar to the phantasmal killer spell. DC10 + Bbn/HalfOrc level + Charisma mod.
Add +5 to the DC if the attack is a critical hit, add +10 if it's a natural 20+confirm.

Sub enhancements for this tree:
Enhanced terror cooldown - 1/1/1 ap: -20 seconds recharge per, down to as low as 60 seconds.

Enhanced Terror DC: - 1/1/1 AP: +2 DC to visage of terror ability per AP.


Ravager II:
Requires:
12 points spend in Ravager Tree. (the above sub enhancements count also)
12 bbn or halforc levels.

Benefits:
Gain Barbarian Critical Rage I. (+1 critical threat while raged), Unarmed damage bonus increases to 2d8.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut II:
Upgrades the damage die to 1d8 per stack.

Ravager III:
Requires:
20 points spend in Ravager Tree. (the above sub enhancements count also)
18 bbn or halforc levels.

Benefits:
Gain Barbarian Critical Rage II. (+2 critical threat while raged), Unarmed damage bonus increases to 3d8.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut III:
Upgrades the damage die to 1d12 per stack.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Master Pain Touch:
You've mastered your pain touch and can inflict critical pain causing grevious injury. This is a special melee attack with very long cooldown and limited uses that recharge slowly. It deals an additional 10 bleed damage per strength modifier you have (60 strength = 250 damage), if this attack is a critical hit, multiply the damage by 3. If this attack is a vorpal strike (nat 20, confirm), multiple the damage by 6 and of the enemy survives the attack, he must make af fortitude save throw or die (counts as a death attack). DC: 10 + Half Class/Halforc level + Strength mod.
3 uses per day. Cooldown: 15 seconds, Charges recharge 1 every 80 seconds.

Another enhancement in the Ravager Tree - does not require Ravager III.

Just some ideas ive been thinking about for a while..

Would make it so we never really lose crit rage for those who still have it. And be the ideal Bbn/Halforc PrE for DPS versus low fort targets, though more difficult to play as it relies on many active abilities.. While Berserker would likely remain best for high fort, especially undead/constructs (who will in some cases will be immune to some of the damage as its typed as evil/bleed dmg), and be a bit easier to maintain.

Berserker as a Rough idea i'd increase it's strength bonus, decrease the self damage, grant a powerful 8 second stun ability in it's tree, and a charge ability.

Occult Slayer as a Rough idea i'd grant the same +10/15/20% hp bonus stalwart get, but only work for two handed/TWF. Grant a temporary super damage shield that depends on your doing damage to the boss to work (DPS-Tank, no shield block and intim like a stalwart can). Grant similar active abilitys as bewildering blow, grant big bonuses to saves vs magic, and additional chances to re-roll against spell effects if you roll a 1.

Anyways sounds exciting.. Let's make melee less of a joke vs casters with this enhancement overhaul.

Tho lets make the arcane caster ones fun too, atm Savant and Archmage are petty boring imo, while Palemaster is insanely powerful.. needs to be balanced out a bit.

[danlan]

Two questions:

1. Will favored souls be able to take radiant servant pre?

2. Will wizards be able to take both palemaster and archmage pres?

Thanks for your response in advance!