Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[SisAmethyst]

While I'm also wholly against DDO following the "Standard" MMO Formula I have no problem with it going to a tree system if its done right..theres a REASON most games use it.

Now the thing is with DDO despite using a similar tree system its utilized completely different just by the fact that our leveling system is a entirely different beast. Now I'm going to make an example but bear with me because its been year since I played WoW but here goes nothing.

...

I would NEVER be able to do that in other MMOs...not even Rift or FF11...the former amounts to a far less in-depth PrE system and the latter having the ability to Dual-Class...both having the same tired stand and press button to win mechanic...hell rift doesn't even try to hide it you can put your entire combat sequence into one button

Sure, I like the tree as well as it is far more intuitive then what we have at the moment. On the otehr hand it is quite complex and enable us to do quite crazy combinations which is a good thing. So my point was just to not make it to strict and fixed like it is in WoW or Rift. As you said, DDO goes far more in depth with its Enhancments and I hope that the Devs will not simplify it too much in this process just to fit it all into a tree.

P.S. : We don't have any Gold Farmer and any griefers are quickly shunned the lack of an open PvP system helps with that....yeah No PvP is in MY Pro section

hehe, I guess you are not alone there

[Aashrym]

We arent talking about filling the entire tree. We are talking about progression to specific levels in the split. Youre saying its not limiting unless theres enough points to fill the entire tree?

That would be incorrect. Like the current system, the new system will have level limited enhancements. In a 12-6-2 situation the person cannot access enhancements over level 12 for fighter, over level 6 for ranger, and over level 2 for monk. They traded in ability to ascend vertically to level 20 in fighter, and they gained the ability to ascend to 6 in ranger and 2 in monk. That is the trade off. There is no reason to arbitrarily limit the system further through UI. The trade off is vertical movement for lateral movement. By gaining up to level 6 ranger enhancements and level 2 monk, they denied themselves access to fighter 13-20 enhancements.

Your statement that there is enough enhancements in fighter trees is incorrect, because they are being limited by the number of trees, which encourages pure class building. If they werent limited by trees then you would be correct, but since they are, there is far less reason to multiclass.

The ability to multiclass here SHOULD (but doesnt) give us the option to choose whatever we want from ranger 1-6, whatever we want from monk 1-2 and whatever we want from fighter 1-12 using the 12-6-2 class split. We cant do that because once we choose something from three trees, all lateral movement is locked out, which was the entire advantage in multiclassing in the first place, lateral movement.

Vertical movement does not cost another tree. Lateral movement does. It is NOT an equal system.

I'm saying there is no difference between being limited to advancement in a tree by level req's or being limited by advancement in a tree because of AP spend req's or lack of AP left to spend in a tree. A grayed out option is a grayed out option. That cuts vertical movement in trees for pure classes.

Players do not go 12/6/2 because of the enhancements on that 2nd level character and it would be just as viable. Players hit the splash for the abilities the class that come with it and the enhancements are a small concern or small perk.

What they normally do is multiclass the higher levels for the PrE's they want and that option has not changed. Instead what has changes is the fact they have more options to mix more PrE's by multiclassing and more free abilities from which to select with those tree choices. Losing some choices and gaining other choices is not a net loss.

An individual class within the multiclass does hit some choice restrictions compared to the old system but those choices move to the character instead and we build for a character, not one class within the character.

I'm inclined to think new builds might be Horc 12/6/2 splits with Kensei II, Tempest I, and Ravager III; or maybe Drow 12/6/2 Tempest Capstone and Kensei II -- I'm sure drow won't mind a boost in popularity if it works although changing the ranger levels to rogue levels for Assassin I might be better for the free benefits, sneak attack, and assassin tree because the feat restriction on tempest just dropped and I don't need the ranger levels -- or forget assassin completely and still take the sneak attack for rogue at 5 levels and 3 monk levels -- or drop monk for rogue at 2 levels for sneak attack and evasion and take barbarian 6 for fast movement, rage, and occult slayer I. A pure class can't do any of that.

This system looks incredibly multiclass friendly. Why on earth would I make a pure fighter and limit myself to the choice of fighter trees when I can make a race with a nice melee unlock, pick from the best trees available to those classes, still have access to high level enhancements, have access to a capstone if I wanted it, and still have more options than I can possible spend points on?

Multiclassing does not cost a tree, there are still 3 for the character regardless. Multiclassing provides a choice of what trees will be available until those trees are locked in. Choosing from 12 classes with 3 trees each means 36 tree combinations to select from by multiclassing before considering at what level to preplan them out. Pure classing has less than 10% of the options available to multiclassing.

The vertical movement is still there whether it's in the race tree, the race PrE unlock, or high enough up in a main class on something like a 16 or 18 level break point with multiclasses.

Going pure class, at best, means I have limited the number of tree options that I won't be able to spend points in because spending the points in 1 means limiting my vertical advancement in the others. Spending 30+ in one and possibly the same in race leaves **** to spend on the other 2. Which I guess is okay because going pure means I don't have the option of getting better choices to suit my build design anyway.

I'm seeing a whole lot of potential reasons to not make a pure class. The most options seem to be coming from 12-18 levels in 1 class and 2-8 levels in a second class, possibly with a 3rd splash just to cherry pick the class abilities. I might agree it's not an equal system but not because it's better for pures, because it's the other way around.

[Aashrym]

I do agree though that there needs to be incentive to multi-class in this new system and I'd say either an Extra Pane per class or my suggested Multi-class system (would prefer this) would suffice.

I don't think those are racial PrE markers on the bottom of the race tree. I think those are free race bonuses similar to the free PrE bonuses but for spending points in the race tree. The race PrE unlocks the ability to swap a class PrE for a full class PrE tree unrestricted by class level until we get more info.

[Vormaerin]

Old School Gnome stats all the way (+2 Int/Dex, -2 Str/Wis...known as a Tinkere Gnome in 3.5)

Those aren't old school gnomes. Those are middle school gnomes. Old School gnomes were illusionists, practical jokers, and nature lovers with nary a thought for mad science, mechanical devices, or any of that.

Tinker gnomes came out about 10 years after the original D&D gnomes did.

[Feithlin]

A part of the difficulty of making racial PrEs identical to class PrEs is that it will lead to some combinations in favor of specific classes.

A stalwart defender and a defender of siberys are mostly on par atm, with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. If the stalwart PrE can be taken as a racial PrE, a dwarf / WF / human (if SD is one of their PrEs) DoS will have a much higher defense than any Stalwart defender, who won't be able to stack his enhancements with another defensive racial PrE.

This is why I think the racial PrEs should be independant from class PrEs. It would also add a nice dimension to the game, as these racial PrEs could be used with a wide variety of classes (just like DD3.5 Prestige classes).

Of course, this would require working on a lot of additional sets of enhancements, but I think it's worth it. And I'm sure you could get a lot of good ideas from players.

[jkm]

A part of the difficulty of making racial PrEs identical to class PrEs is that it will lead to some combinations in favor of specific classes.

A stalwart defender and a defender of siberys are mostly on par atm, with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. If the stalwart PrE can be taken as a racial PrE, a dwarf / WF / human (if SD is one of their PrEs) DoS will have a much higher defense than any Stalwart defender, who won't be able to stack his enhancements with another defensive racial PrE.

This is why I think the racial PrEs should be independant from class PrEs. It would also add a nice dimension to the game, as these racial PrEs could be used with a wide variety of classes (just like DD3.5 Prestige classes).

Of course, this would require working on a lot of additional sets of enhancements, but I think it's worth it. And I'm sure you could get a lot of good ideas from players.

I think the reason that they are reusing the class PrEs is that the unique racial ones were descoped.

[LeLoric]

A part of the difficulty of making racial PrEs identical to class PrEs is that it will lead to some combinations in favor of specific classes.

A stalwart defender and a defender of siberys are mostly on par atm, with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. If the stalwart PrE can be taken as a racial PrE, a dwarf / WF / human (if SD is one of their PrEs) DoS will have a much higher defense than any Stalwart defender, who won't be able to stack his enhancements with another defensive racial PrE.

This is why I think the racial PrEs should be independant from class PrEs. It would also add a nice dimension to the game, as these racial PrEs could be used with a wide variety of classes (just like DD3.5 Prestige classes).

Of course, this would require working on a lot of additional sets of enhancements, but I think it's worth it. And I'm sure you could get a lot of good ideas from players.

The bulk of the benefits of the two defender prestiges is the stance. You can't be in both stances so theres little to no gain. While there would be a small benefit I don't think getting both would be game breaking and theres probably much better choices within different trees.

[Failedlegend]

I don't think those are racial PrE markers on the bottom of the race tree. I think those are free race bonuses similar to the free PrE bonuses but for spending points in the race tree.

Hmm...wonder what will go there?

The race PrE unlocks the ability to swap a class PrE for a full class PrE tree unrestricted by class level until we get more info.

I thought that was the way it worked but the fact that race has the 5/10/15/etc. progression I thought I may have been wrong.


Anyways Using the Tempest example I put together a quick Swiftblade Mock-up


Swiftblade:

Requires: One Arcane PrE & One Martial PrE (I'm thinking you don't need a specific amount of points they just need to be locked in)

Note: Most of these bonuses only function while under the effect of haste and all bonuses stack with the base effects of Haste

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

As for enhancements in the Tree it would consist of stuff like increased Run Speed, Spell Resistance, Freedom of Movement, Increased Balance, Jump and Tumble...anything to do with movement or speed basically.

Oh and with Multiclass PrEs any Level Gates should be based off of Character level

[Aashrym]

Hmm...wonder what will go there?



I thought that was the way it worked but the fact that race has the 5/10/15/etc. progression I thought I may have been wrong.


Anyways Using the Tempest example I put together a quick Swiftblade Mock-up


Swiftblade:

Requires: One Arcane PrE & One Martial PrE (I'm thinking you don't need a specific amount of points they just need to be locked in)

Note: Most of these bonuses only function while under the effect of haste and all bonuses stack with the base effects of Haste

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

As for enhancements in the Tree it would consist of stuff like increased Run Speed, Spell Resistance, Freedom of Movement, Increased Balance, Jump and Tumble...anything to do with movement or speed basically.

Oh and with Multiclass PrEs any Level Gates should be based off of Character level

Might be for multiclass per character level. I was thinking it was an incentive to spend points on the tree because there would be more incentive to spend points on the pre trees for the freebies if they didn't add similar functionality to the race tree. I was thinking the character level was for the race unlocked PrE and the points spent was still the deciding factor for that tree's unlocks and free abilities.

[Failedlegend]

I think I may not be understanding what you said correctly so I apologize If I got it wrong but here goes

I was thinking it was an incentive to spend points on the tree because there would be more incentive to spend points on the pre trees for the freebies if they didn't add similar functionality to the race tree.

Are you saying that the 5/10/15/etc. in the racial tab is just to give it equal footing with the Prestige Tree

ie. Human

5 Points Spent: Unlock Racial PrE
10 Points Spent: 10% Healing Amp, +1 to All Skills
15 Points Spent: Human Versatility 1
20 Points Spent: 20% Healing Amp, +2 to all Skills, Human Versatility 2
25 Points Spent: Human Versatility 3
30 Points Spent: 30% Healing Amp, +3 to All Skills, Human Versatility 4
41 Points Spent: ????

Personally though I think two things need to be done

1) Remove the fact that Racial PrEs are just copies of class PrEs...even if it means it won't make it into the summer update....here's some examples of racially specific PrEs

Warforged: Reforged AND Juggernaut (let players if they so choose to embrace or stray from being a war machine)

Halfling: Luck Stealer or Whistler

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender

Drow Elf: Scorpion Wraith

Elf: Arcane Archer AND Eldritch Knight

Half-Orc: Bloodfist or Eye of Gruumsh

Human: Adroit Explorer or Steelsky Liberator

Half-Elf: Can take any Class PrE associated with their Dilly


2) The Racial Prestiges should be the 5/10/15/etc. of the Racial Tab

Might be for multiclass per character level.

Your agreeing that any Multiclass Level gates should be based on character level.....because otherwise no one would ever get the highest point as you can't have a multiclass PrE w/o multiclassing thus you wouldn't have a class at lvl 20 :P

I was thinking the character level was for the race unlocked PrE and the points spent was still the deciding factor for that tree's unlocks and free abilities.

I was more thinking that one of the 5/10/etc. unlocks it than any level gates would be character levels...although I still don't think it's a good idea to make them copies of the Class PrEs

[orakio]

It took them 3 years to add the handful of PrE's we have gotten. What makes you think that they would be able to finish 7+ new racial PrE's plus the other unifinished class PrE's before their midyear timeline?

There are a couple reasons I would imagine that they are using currently planned class PrE's as the racial PrE's.
1) It limits the amount of development to get this system out in a reasonable time
2) Less options than if racial PrE's are unique means it is easier to balance
3) Allows you to build the same type of character multiple ways, if you want a tempest FB assassin you don't necessarily need ranger levels.

Having unique racial PrE's is a good idea eventually but not a reasonable expectation for the initial release of the new system.

[Failedlegend]

Having unique racial PrE's is a good idea eventually but not a reasonable expectation for the initial release of the new system.

1) Remove the fact that Racial PrEs are just copies of class PrEs...even if it means it won't make it into the summer update....here's some examples of racially specific PrEs

Response in orange...it's from the post your replied to

2) Less options than if racial PrE's are unique means it is easier to balance

I disagree even though its the same PrE it's a different source....ie. Elven AAs became kind of irrelevant when Half-Elfs were released since they had AA as well

[Chai]

I'm saying there is no difference between being limited to advancement in a tree by level req's or being limited by advancement in a tree because of AP spend req's or lack of AP left to spend in a tree. A grayed out option is a grayed out option. That cuts vertical movement in trees for pure classes.

This supports what Im saying that there needs to not be a further arbitrary limitation based on the UI. The checks and balances are already in place due to the number of points that can be spent. It doesnt matter how many points worth of good options you put in front of me, I can only take 80 points of enhancements.

Players do not go 12/6/2 because of the enhancements on that 2nd level character and it would be just as viable. Players hit the splash for the abilities the class that come with it and the enhancements are a small concern or small perk.

My 18 bard 2 fighter uses str 1, toughness 1, and fighter haste boost currently, as does by 16/2/2 bard. Its not jsut the 2 feats that make the 2 fighter splash worth it.

So the 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 rogue doesnt use rogue haste boost or SA damage 1?

Its like I said before, let the players decide. Put it in front of the players and let them decide why they splash or why theyre staying pure.

What they normally do is multiclass the higher levels for the PrE's they want and that option has not changed. Instead what has changes is the fact they have more options to mix more PrE's by multiclassing and more free abilities from which to select with those tree choices. Losing some choices and gaining other choices is not a net loss.

And if those options dont make the 12/6/2 split as good as their current character, then they are forced into TRing most likely.

An individual class within the multiclass does hit some choice restrictions compared to the old system but those choices move to the character instead and we build for a character, not one class within the character.

Arbitrary choice restrictions, based on the UI, and for no other reason. Its the DA of character building.

I'm inclined to think new builds might be Horc 12/6/2 splits with Kensei II, Tempest I, and Ravager III; or maybe Drow 12/6/2 Tempest Capstone and Kensei II -- I'm sure drow won't mind a boost in popularity if it works although changing the ranger levels to rogue levels for Assassin I might be better for the free benefits, sneak attack, and assassin tree because the feat restriction on tempest just dropped and I don't need the ranger levels -- or forget assassin completely and still take the sneak attack for rogue at 5 levels and 3 monk levels -- or drop monk for rogue at 2 levels for sneak attack and evasion and take barbarian 6 for fast movement, rage, and occult slayer I. A pure class can't do any of that.

And a multiclass cant do ALL of that. Once they have options selected in 2 trees and put one point into the third tree, thats all she wrote. You now get to put more points into ONLY what you already put points into.

This system looks incredibly multiclass friendly. Why on earth would I make a pure fighter and limit myself to the choice of fighter trees when I can make a race with a nice melee unlock, pick from the best trees available to those classes, still have access to high level enhancements, have access to a capstone if I wanted it, and still have more options than I can possible spend points on?

Because if you like options in all 3 fighter trees, or you like options in 2 fighter trees and your racial tree, you get no enhancements in any of the classes you multiclassed into.

Multiclassing does not cost a tree, there are still 3 for the character regardless. Multiclassing provides a choice of what trees will be available until those trees are locked in. Choosing from 12 classes with 3 trees each means 36 tree combinations to select from by multiclassing before considering at what level to preplan them out. Pure classing has less than 10% of the options available to multiclassing.

Taking enhancements in any tree costs a tree - even a class you multi'd or splashed into.

The vertical movement is still there whether it's in the race tree, the race PrE unlock, or high enough up in a main class on something like a 16 or 18 level break point with multiclasses.

Arbitrary limitation is arbitrary. Its a "Because we said so" limitation.

Going pure class, at best, means I have limited the number of tree options that I won't be able to spend points in because spending the points in 1 means limiting my vertical advancement in the others. Spending 30+ in one and possibly the same in race leaves **** to spend on the other 2. Which I guess is okay because going pure means I don't have the option of getting better choices to suit my build design anyway.

Going pure means you can advance all the way up in 4 trees potentially. The racial + 3 class PRE. A 12/6/2 can advance all the way up in 1 - the racial - and then everything else is level restricted. They SHOULD gain lateral choices but they do not because once they make a choice in a third tree, the lateral choices they gained from multiclassing are closed off. Thus it is MORE limiting.

I'm seeing a whole lot of potential reasons to not make a pure class. The most options seem to be coming from 12-18 levels in 1 class and 2-8 levels in a second class, possibly with a 3rd splash just to cherry pick the class abilities. I might agree it's not an equal system but not because it's better for pures, because it's the other way around.

I disagree. Multiclassing is about the trade off. The builder traded vertical advacement for lateral advancement, only they dont get MORE lateral advancement. They get just as much lateral advancement as the pure, 3 trees, but less vertical advancement. Thats not a trade off, its a limitation, and an arbitrary one at that.

[Aashrym]

I think I may not be understanding what you said correctly so I apologize If I got it wrong but here goes



Are you saying that the 5/10/15/etc. in the racial tab is just to give it equal footing with the Prestige Tree

ie. Human

5 Points Spent: Unlock Racial PrE
10 Points Spent: 10% Healing Amp, +1 to All Skills
15 Points Spent: Human Versatility 1
20 Points Spent: 20% Healing Amp, +2 to all Skills, Human Versatility 2
25 Points Spent: Human Versatility 3
30 Points Spent: 30% Healing Amp, +3 to All Skills, Human Versatility 4
41 Points Spent: ????

Something like this, yes. Having 4 trees when each AP spent costs the same should have similar value. So that is where racial paragon features or whataver fit in. Free abilities for hitting those same AP spend thresholds and a race capstone of some sort if we were to spend enough points in there.

That way spending 15 AP in a PrE tree has similar value to spending 15 AP in a race tree.

[Aashrym]

stuff

I don't want to get into a big stretch of long responses.

1) Multiclass can do all that. I never went over 3 trees.

2) A pure class fighter cannot take rogue haste boost either. A multiclass has the option of taking it if he splashes rogue, grabs the tree, and spends his points. The ability to choose 3 trees from 12 classes and start the build from there over 3 trees from one class is enough versatility IMO. It's not actually any more restrictive than locking out choices in the pure class trees than the AP spent per tree req's. Barring alignment restrictions from bards and barbarians with paladins and monks in combination 36 available trees is a lot of choices over 3.

3) We don't know that rogue haste boost will even exist in the new system or at what tier it will be evaluated to belong in. We do know there will be more options that we have now.

4) It's not an arbitrary limitation. It's a consistent building process for all characters whether they multiclass or not.

5) Going pure does not mean you can advance in all 4 trees potentially unless you limit that vertical progression. If I spend 20 AP in each I hit a bunch of PrE II's just like a multiclass could but without the advantage of choosing which PrE II's I want, and I would not have any points left over to spend in those tiers I just opened up. There is zero potential to advance up in all the trees.

6) If I liked all three fighter trees I could make a fighter and have them. If I liked all three fighter trees, 2 monk trees, and a rogue tree I cannot have them. If I multiclass I cannot have all of them but I have more choices on the ones I do take. Going pure locked out 33 PrE trees. Multiclassing did not. They both get 3 trees and one has a lot more control over which trees those are.

7) My pure bard uses wand and scroll, full IC, song magic IV, and lingering song IV. Placing those in 3 different trees means my existing pure bard can lose access to some of those too.

If I have to give up lingering song IV. If you give up haste boost I, 10 hp, and STR I (which usually only means waiting longer because you need a +4 tome instead of a +3 tome because of it) will not impact you significantly when you are likely making use of those 2 fighter feats, 10 hp out 600+ won't break anything, haste boosts are limited uses for short durations. Both are if's, both are relevant to existing builds, that does not specifically target multiclass, and new builds will emerge for everyone.

I don't doubt some existing builds will need to be rebuilt under the new system. The fact that they can be rebuilt effectively under the new system with more options indicates it is not restricting multiclassed players excessively. The end result is they still have a lot more choices in PrE tree options and class options and free PrE abilities. That choice in free PrE abilities is worth the change but also on of the reasons I would want to restrict the number of trees available.

[Failedlegend]

I don't doubt some existing builds will need to be rebuilt under the new system. The fact that they can be rebuilt effectively under the new system with more options indicates it is not restricting multiclassed players excessively. The end result is they still have a lot more choices in PrE tree options and class options and free PrE abilities. That choice in free PrE abilities is worth the change but also on of the reasons I would want to restrict the number of trees available.

The problem isn't whether we can make effective characters after the change the problem is the 3 Tree system will LIMIT our options which is the exact opposite of what multiclassing is supposed to do. Like I said before either we need to get an extra 1 or 2 Panes per extra class or we need something like my Multiclass PrEs.

Lets put it this way while you may not agree we NEED more trees you can agree that even if we did have more and decided to spend X amount of AP in Tree 4+ for a few cherry picked bonuses it would equalize since we can't spend as much in our "Main" PrEs. I still say the Multi-Class PrEs w/ 3 Trees would be the better option but that will take alot more work which the devs may not have time for since their "reinventing the wheel" and all.

Oh and why were on limiting options Racial PrEs should not be Class PrE copies.

[Aashrym]

The problem isn't whether we can make effective characters after the change the problem is the 3 Tree system will LIMIT our options which is the exact opposite of what multiclassing is supposed to do. Like I said before either we need to get an extra 1 or 2 Panes per extra class or we need something like my Multiclass PrEs

That's not multiclass specific and the options are not limited when you can just decide which PrE's you want and how high you want them, then choose the class splits you need compared to a pure class and total lack of options in that regard.

The class abilities outside of the enhancements also provide reasons to multiclass. There is little incentive to remain pure class.

I like your idea that a PrE tree becomes available for unlock based on the other 2 trees locked in and still remain on the 3 tree system, but that would be a tree only available to multiclasses. Even then we could still be looking at nothing but incentive to multiclass. Right now it's mostly melee because the higher levels offer little over a multiclassing. I don't see that changing by moving to 3 trees just because some of those players might need to spend a few of those AP on different benefits.

[Failedlegend]

The 3 tree limits the available options to pure classes compared to now too tho. Splitting up the abilities in trees determines what enhancements will be available to pure classes in the same way it does to multiclasses because of that unlock costs.

That's not multiclass specific and the options are not limited when you can just decide which PrE's you want and how high you want them, then choose the class splits you need compared to a pure class and total lack of options in that regard.

The class abilities outside of the enhancements also provide reasons to multiclass. There is little incentive to remain pure class.

I disagree Single classes get ALOT out of this new system.

- Currently only Multiclasses and AAs (The only current Racial PrE) have access to the ability to have multiple PrEs in the new system Multiclasses lose that advantage and due to racials they even lose the advantage of having PrEs from DIFFERENT classes

- Capstones (If Tempest represents the Standard) have got a wicked power boost and only a Single Class Lvl 20 can take a non-racial capstone as the 41 pt. bonus has a 20 Lvl gate

- ALL Tier 3s are being completed or revamped if their too weak...alot of the reasoning for multiclassing was either because a tier 3 was outclassed by a Tier 2+ Tier 1 or the Tier 3 just didn't exist yet...thats being removed under the new system

- Single classes lose nothing in this change they still have access to what they have now as unlike multiclasses even if your a 20 Palemaster you can cherry pick from Wild Mage or Archmage. Multiclasses on the other hand DO lose access to some key enhancements either from their main class or their splash class(es) since they will be limited to 3/6 or 3/9 Trees...honestly the content doesn't matter the point is we WON'T have access to what we can do now...and frankly since their redoing the whole system each PrE will likely be relatively equal in power


So really there's nothing that multiclasses gain that Pures don't and they lose plenty while Pure classes gain the above...I don't get how you fail to see that.

That's not multiclass specific

How the 3 Tree limit not limited to Multiclasses...yeah sure single classes have the same limit but they only HAVE 3 Trees so again I say..Single Class No Loss + Plenty Of Gains vs. Multiclass Big Loss + Less Gain than Singleclass

The class abilities outside of the enhancements also provide reasons to multiclass.

Agreed there's also plenty of reasons to stay pure...that system is not changing nor is it the system in question...although from the looks of The Tempest Capstone Single-Classes are getting a boost here too

[Chai]

I don't want to get into a big stretch of long responses.

1) Multiclass can do all that. I never went over 3 trees.

2) A pure class fighter cannot take rogue haste boost either. A multiclass has the option of taking it if he splashes rogue, grabs the tree, and spends his points. The ability to choose 3 trees from 12 classes and start the build from there over 3 trees from one class is enough versatility IMO. It's not actually any more restrictive than locking out choices in the pure class trees than the AP spent per tree req's. Barring alignment restrictions from bards and barbarians with paladins and monks in combination 36 available trees is a lot of choices over 3.

3) We don't know that rogue haste boost will even exist in the new system or at what tier it will be evaluated to belong in. We do know there will be more options that we have now.

4) It's not an arbitrary limitation. It's a consistent building process for all characters whether they multiclass or not.

5) Going pure does not mean you can advance in all 4 trees potentially unless you limit that vertical progression. If I spend 20 AP in each I hit a bunch of PrE II's just like a multiclass could but without the advantage of choosing which PrE II's I want, and I would not have any points left over to spend in those tiers I just opened up. There is zero potential to advance up in all the trees.

6) If I liked all three fighter trees I could make a fighter and have them. If I liked all three fighter trees, 2 monk trees, and a rogue tree I cannot have them. If I multiclass I cannot have all of them but I have more choices on the ones I do take. Going pure locked out 33 PrE trees. Multiclassing did not. They both get 3 trees and one has a lot more control over which trees those are.

7) My pure bard uses wand and scroll, full IC, song magic IV, and lingering song IV. Placing those in 3 different trees means my existing pure bard can lose access to some of those too.

If I have to give up lingering song IV. If you give up haste boost I, 10 hp, and STR I (which usually only means waiting longer because you need a +4 tome instead of a +3 tome because of it) will not impact you significantly when you are likely making use of those 2 fighter feats, 10 hp out 600+ won't break anything, haste boosts are limited uses for short durations. Both are if's, both are relevant to existing builds, that does not specifically target multiclass, and new builds will emerge for everyone.

I don't doubt some existing builds will need to be rebuilt under the new system. The fact that they can be rebuilt effectively under the new system with more options indicates it is not restricting multiclassed players excessively. The end result is they still have a lot more choices in PrE tree options and class options and free PrE abilities. That choice in free PrE abilities is worth the change but also on of the reasons I would want to restrict the number of trees available.

I disagree. Again you are not addressing the trade off.

A pure character gets access to 4 full trees of which they can put points into 3.
A 12-6-2 character gets access to 10 trees with level restrictions (vertical sacrifice) - still can only put points into 3.

Multiclassing is all about the trade off. They are making a vertical sacrifice to gain lateral choices. However, having more lateral choices gets cancelled out the minute the builder puts a point into the third tree.

This is an arbitrary mechanic that specifically restricts multiclassing more than it is being restricted currently.

And again I say: Let the player decide why they will multiclass. There is no reason to place an arbitrary restriction on this to further restrict choices.

There is no current factual information that supports your statement that toons can be rebuilt under the new system to be more effective. There is factual information that has been laid out here that shows us how this will be more restricting to multiclass builds than pure class builds. If they change this, it will likely be due to the feedback received indicating players are not in favor of arbitrary limitations.

Also understand that "rebuilding to be more effective" for 12-6-2 builds will likely come at a cost of either real life money, or in game time to farm + in game time to run a TR back to 20. This should not be forced on players simply due to an arbitrary limitation placed into the system for no other reason than "the UI only has 3 slots". This restriction doesnt exist right now. Why does it need to in the future?

[Aashrym]

I disagree Single classes get ALOT out of this new system.

- Currently only Multiclasses and AAs (The only current Racial PrE) have access to the ability to have multiple PrEs in the new system Multiclasses lose that advantage and due to racials they even lose the advantage of having PrEs from DIFFERENT classes That would happen as they are added to the existing system as well. That has nothing to do with the 3 tree system as more Race PrE's became available, but that's why it might be worth losing access to some enhancements for pure class. There is no reason to remain pure for that benefit, however, because it is more available with more options by multiclassing. PrE's within the same class do not necessarily complement each other.

- Capstones (If Tempest represents the Standard) have got a wicked power boost and only a Single Class Lvl 20 can take a non-racial capstone as the 41 pt. bonus has a 20 Lvl gate Why go pure if I can get the capstone I want without going pure? This entirely depends on what race unlocks become available but if human does end up with a wide variety then there is less point in going pure for he capstones. The general idea would be capstones should have roughly equal value for roughly equal cost so with equal value then we have roughly equal value without going pure. This is still very dependent on what becomes available but not needing to go pure for a capstone removes that incentive in at least 5 cases compared to now so far.

- ALL Tier 3s are being completed or revamped if their too weak...alot of the reasoning for multiclassing was either because a tier 3 was outclassed by a Tier 2+ Tier 1 or the Tier 3 just didn't exist yet...thats being removed under the new system I can hit 2 that on an 18/2 or any race unlock, and it looks like in the actual race tree as well. There is no reason to go pure for that.

- Single classes lose nothing in this change they still have access to what they have now as unlike multiclasses even if your a 20 Palemaster you can cherry pick from Wild Mage or Archmage. Multiclasses on the other hand DO lose access to some key enhancements either from their main class or their splash class(es) since they will be limited to 3/6 or 3/9 Trees...honestly the content doesn't matter the point is we WON'T have access to what we can do now...and frankly since their redoing the whole system each PrE will likely be relatively equal in power Single classes don't keep the upper tier enhancement availablility in all trees because of AP unlock requirements. They lose access to higher level enhancements because of the 3 tree system based on what is split up from where. I can cherry pick the lower stuff better by having access to more trees to replaces the ones I'm stuck with on a pure class with more appropriate trees by multiclassing. A pure class will NOT have all the option he does now on those 3 trees. I CANNOT select from the top tiers in all 4 trees to get the same options I can now at those levels. If the top abilities currently available to a pure class are split up into 3 trees that class does NOT have the AP to spend for minimum unlock requirements to select them. They are gone. There are no top tier enhancements in the current system that require 20AP to unlock let alone several and trying locks out tier III PrE's and any chance for a capstone. I fail to understand why losing access to a low level option for a multiclass is detrimental to multiclassing but losing access to to high level enhancements for pure classes seems to continue to be ignored as non-existent.


So really theres nothing that multiclasses gain that Pures don't and they lose plenty while Pure classes gain the above...I don't get how you fail to see that.

Pure classes gain nothing but the ability to have more a some extra pre abilities with no choice in them and lose access to high level enhancements they would normally have access to. They lose sole access to capstones.

If I don't need to go pure for a capstone and lose access to high level enhancments I would have still had under the current system and cannot afford to spend a lot of AP in several trees and and can change to better trees for my build by multiclassing what is my incentive for remaining a pure class?