Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Hellllboy]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

Not that I don't appreciate fine tuning the game-but I could think of a ton of different issues that should be prioritized before Enhancements. I would agree that new players may find it difficult to navigate at first-but most players get used to it soon enough.

[azrael4h]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

So are the feat pre-reqs also being changed? Tempest, for example, would require no less than 7 feats... putting it effectively a Ranger or Fighter only PrE, even for a Drow (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Spring Attack, Dodge, Mobility, TWD/TWB/whatever the other options were). Tempest, right now, isn't worth taking to tier III, and the cost has me debating the use of even tier I and II compared to what they give. AA also has this issue, though I'll admit a lack of familiarity with Defenders and Assassins. Ravager, of course, does not exist on live so I can't look at it.

If the feat reqs were loosened, I can see Drow getting a decent bump though. FvS Tempest Avengers? Cleric Tempest Warpriests? Bard Tempest Warchanters? But if it can't fit in with the core healing/casting feats and toughness, then it will be just a red herring. It won't open up many build possibilities at all. Maybe some obscure PM/Tempest build somewhere.

One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

One more question regarding the marks; will they open up enhancements to boost them? Like the Half-Elven mark which gives Call Lightning Storm. It's useless save for a Wizard (who has better things to burn 3 feats on) or maybe Artificer. Or the Halfling healing marks. Will we be able to buy enhancements which boost these abilities? What about the idea about regenerating uses, for more sustained use of these abilities. Or is that more an idea for the Dragonmarked Heir lines?

[Aashrym]

Well My Dwarven Arcane Tank is gonna love that

I have a dwarf pale master who was just waiting to try out such an opportunity.

[Tsuarok]

You guys are not allowed to implement these awesome changes!! I have to study!!!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am not a fan of this. PrEs are a specialization within your class abilities. Making an AA/tempest means you don't really choose. You should be limiting other options as you open new options within your class. What's the point of of Prestige otherwise? This would take a lot of convincing for me.

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?

Very good comment. As you may have guessed, its not so simple. But there is a very good explanation.

Pen and paper D&D Prestige Classes rarely (if ever) required a base class. They required BAB, skills, feats, and/or generic "spellcasting" of a type.

For example, for most melee/tank-oriented prestige classes, you needed a certain BAB score and certain feats. Barbarians, Rangers, Fighters, and Paladins were all viable options to get to most melee type prestige classes. Once you were in the Prestige Class, things looked relatively equal. You ceased to level in your specific base class but became more like the eventual result of the Prestige Class. The point being that it didn't matter what base class you started off in. You could even start as a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and eventually qualify.

D&D prestige classes were all about the Role and function, not the class itself. There are many PrCs that don't translate to PrEs very well because you simply can't tie them to a class - they're tied to a ROLE.

Take Eldritch Knight for example. What's the role? An arcane spell slinging melee type. Spell Slinging? Does that mean Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard? Does melee mean Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin? The answer is yes - it can mean all of those. Another is the Sacred Fist. Divine spellcasting on a fist-fighting melee. Monk by definition? Absolutely not. A monk/cleric would qualify, as would a pure class Druid, Ranger or Paladin that took the right feats. It's completely impossible to peg many PrCs to a specific Class even though the Role is very well defined.

DDO has, in effect, pegged Roles TO Classes with the Prestige Enhancement System. Specifically, viable fighting types. If you want to fight, you're a Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin, and even the Paladin in that group is highly suspect. D&D made no such requirements or pegs. Anybody was a viable melee combatant if built properly (feats, PrCs, equipment, etc).

The biggest losers here are hyrbrid builds. And by that, I mean anything that typically does X, but is capable of doing Y very very well. Because Turbine has chosen to only implement PrEs that offer a 1 (or sometimes 2) dimentional aspect of a base class, anything not conforming to Turbine's preconieved notions of what that class is meant to do is essentially non-viable in endgame scenarios.

Earlier (up to level 9 or 10) in the leveling cycle, these non-standard builds work fairly well as the gap between different classes isn't nearly as noticeable. Same is true for PnP. However, in PnP you can actually pick up the Prestige Class made for your Role. In DDO, you're stuck to a base class or two, with little chance of ever being able to fulfill that desired Roll.

Thats why I think its great to hear that Turbine wishes to correctly untie Prestige Enhancements from most base classes.

There DOES need to be a limit. Limiting us to 2 or 3 PrEs per character (heck, 2 for non-humans and 3 for humans would work too). Or 1-2 for that matter, as long as all PrEs are available to all classes. There are also limits to how MUCH training you get and WHEN you can start taking the training based on class, time and other factors.

Since this will be a big win for mixed class builds over what we have now.. there needs to be clear benefits of staying pure. This is why enhancements and even capstones may change to make it all work.

At the end of the day, all your toons should feel like the same toons, except with better training and more effective execution!

Lastly, with so many more ways to fulfill your roles as a fighter mage, as a battle cleric, etc etc, the less card stock, cookie cutter builds we'll see running around.

[Eladrin]

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.

Human: Pick one. Any as in..any racial PrE or ANY PrE

It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.

So are the feat pre-reqs also being changed? Tempest, for example, would require no less than 7 feats... putting it effectively a Ranger or Fighter only PrE, even for a Drow. AA also has this issue, though I'll admit a lack of familiarity with Defenders and Assassins. Ravager, of course, does not exist on live so I can't look at it.

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.

One more question regarding the marks; will they open up enhancements to boost them? Like the Half-Elven mark which gives Call Lightning Storm. It's useless save for a Wizard (who has better things to burn 3 feats on). Or the Halfling healing marks. Will we be able to buy enhancements which boost these abilities?

I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

[pasterqb]

All the Dev respones in this thread gives me tears of joy.

[NostalithilDarkstar]

please get rid of the "total point spent" prerequisite

[Dreamshifter]

Lots of interesting possibilities in this rework. I am definitely liking what I am hearing, a lot. Especially if it makes adding future PrEs easier. Anything that gets rid of old code, in favor of new, more functional code, is a great thing. However, this...

This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant

I will admit to having to hold in a "Squeeeee!" over. Now comes the torture of waiting on these changes. At least I've got months to go before I TR again, I guess...

[Failedlegend]

So basically this is what you guys have been hiding from us or at least part of it.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.

Any chance while your doing this you'll change explanations to include was does and does not function with ranged (which frankly poisons should) and just clean up the tool-tips in general (although I guess since your rewriting alot of enhancements they will be rewritten anyways)

I CANNOT wait for this to hit Lama...and hope you plan to put in on there nice and early so we can playtest and break it :P (I think you mentioned something about this earlier)

[Pwesiela]

Very good comment. As you may have guessed, its not so simple. But there is a very good explanation.

Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

[jkm]

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Are you still planning on having the most powerful additions as predominantly that same class?

Using your example, right now Assassin 3 is exponentially more powerful than Assassin 1 (I don't want to even get into the silliness that is FB3 vs FB1). This type of power up the chain decreases the viability of multiclassing and locks people into being cookie cutters.

[Failedlegend]

you're not the tank the party is looking for.

[azrael4h]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.


There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

All this is sounding awesome. Whats more awesome is that we're actually getting some feedback here. Thank you for coming out and being up front with this, especially on a Sunday when you should be off.

[Dreamshifter]

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

Well, Eladrin already stated that taking two PrEs up to level 3 would take most of your AP, so that should restrict people to two at most. And will no doubt leave them lacking in other areas. That said, once it hits, I'll be checking out a Dwarf Paladin, and seeing what stacks between DoS and SD. Likely, not enough stuff to make the combo work.

Still, I won't say that such concerns are meaningless, that's for sure. This is going to be a delicate balancing act for the Devs, and we (the DDO community as a whole) will definitely need to help them find those potentially broken combinations. Heck, this discussion has prompted me to start installing the Lamma server again, which I haven't been on in years (has it really been that long? ). Here's hoping that these changes are as good as they potentially could be, and not as disastrous as we fear.

[arkonas]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

[jkm]

I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

The dwarven line needs to be rethought. Maybe bonus damage but scorpions become like rusties to them? (Haverdasher joke)

Second, Is there any plan to push the purchaseable past life feats into the enhancement system? Right now it is so heavily biased against the 7 feat classes it isn't even funny.

[jkm]

So one other idea you can tear apart is the idea of importing an XML template into the Enhancement UI that would highlight for people what enhancements they should take when.

Since everyone uses offline planners, it would allow them to put it into Ron's system and spit out something to suck into the game that would show them what they needed without having to alt-tab back to whatever they were doing.

[Aashrym]

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible

So what are the chances we will be able to cherry pick enhancements from the PrE's like splashing classes? My thoughts are will I be able to make a bard with warchanter IC bonus, enthrall, bonus spell dc, and sp regen all in one bard on a system like this, as an example?

[gloopygloop]

All of this sounds like we'll be able to pick up some great stuff and we'll probably be able to sqeeze a little more our of some classes that are currently AP starved (Paladin), but that we will have a large enough variety of fun toys to choose from that we will end up with real variety in our characters.

I like that.