Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Scraap]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

So assassin 2, mech 1 for instance to maintain the instakills with a side order of ganking those hard to reach places then?

[Lifespawn]

So assassin 2, mech 1 for instance to maintain the instakills with a side order of ganking those hard to reach places then?

i took what was said to mean if you had a racial that used to take it's place as a class pre that was changing

also that a 12 ftr 6 pally could now take stalwart and dos

[Lifespawn]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

happy about the changes except the crit rage my poor bowbarian will be useless

[waterboytkd]

i took what was said to mean if you had a racial that used to take it's place as a class pre that was changing

also that a 12 ftr 6 pally could now take stalwart and dos

Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?

[BattleCircle]

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

This would make me and many many others extremely happy, giddy even.

[azrael4h]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

So will these be front-loaded, like the arcane damage lines are now? e.g. 10hp at first tier for Toughness enhancements, 5 per after? (just an example, no one get worked up or start comparing me to Hitler for this).

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

Nice. So We'll be seeing Kensai Defenders then? I can see melee players gaining a lot of lost ground with that, if they can slip in both PrEs.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

You just made Shade happy. :P For that matter, the thought of unique capstones for each PrE line makes me happy. Almost as much as more PrEs. Just please don't restrict the capstones to those PrEs. RS, for example, is extremely good, and I could see building a melee-type Cleric, but still using RS for healing rather than Warpriest. An example, but still, this falls in line with #1 of my first post.

[Coldin]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

Ahh, I see. Still, that's much better than the current system.

But what will humans get I wonder? They always felt like a poor choice as far as enhancements go. No racial weapon. No racial prestige.

[Eladrin]

Oh wow. I mean, Dwarf getting Dwarven Defender...that would make dwarves one of the sickest classes...unless, of course, every race got a sick PrE (Horc could get Ravager or FB, Halfling or Drow could get Assassin, Helf could open any one PrE from their Dilly, Human could...I don't know; what about warforged? is warforged juggernaut still coming? if so, pretty pretty please make it a viable option for any class), which is more or less what you said. You didn't say get access to a sick PrE...and you should. Or, better yet, make sure that all PrEs are as sick as the others...

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?

Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)

So will these be front-loaded

It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.

Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.

One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

[sephiroth1084]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

I like the sound of ALL OF THAT! Oooh!

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

My issue with Crit Rage (and I don't have it on anyone), is that some people have had to go without changing their enhancements for years now, and for at least a few characters, their having this is rather central to their character build (bowbarians). If you don't want that to remain the case, say so, but this is going to really upset a few people. Moving it to a capstone won't help most of them.

I'd love to see the ability to gain Crit Rage opened up to everyone, particularly if it can be used to make an interesting archer to add some variety, but I don't see this happening in a way that satisfies those, admittedly few, people who have held onto this with whitening knuckles.

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

I really like the sound of this, but how would it work for, say, a Dwarven Paladin? Would the benefits of Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender stack? Would they still lock each other out?

As far as being able to pick up multiple PrEs...I like the idea, but it looks to me like it could be unbalancing in some ways. With the addition of lowered AP costs as well, that looks even more problematic. A Kensai Stalwart would have more Str most of the time than a barbarian, in addition to probably more HP and all the other benefits of both. Do you want wizards to be able to pick up both Pale Master and Archmage as a double-necro spec (+4 to DCs)? I like the options this implies, but am a little leery of some of the results...


By the way, I posted a thread with comments and some suggestions on the AP situation for paladins here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4249196

[Aashrym]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Sounds like an improvement. I don't thing front loading them is the best approach. I would be looking at standard increments from start to end.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

I like this idea. Feats are a restricting factor on most builds and paying 1 feat for the chain of dragon mark abilities would definitely make them more accessible.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

I'm a bit more l cautious on that but would have to do the wait and see. I can see OP combinations happening and if the combinations are too good it would still be restrictive in our choices. A very poor choice is pretty much the same as that choice not existing.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

I would hope that is BAU. I would expect you to be doing everything you can to make it appealing.
On that same note, however, what you think might be appealing might not match what we think would be appealing. More information and then better feedback.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

That last line sound like we might see more choices in capstones, which starts off as optimistic. I think adding barb crit range into a pre profile sounded like a heck of an idea when it was mentioned earlier and I'll /sign that one.

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be sets of skill bonuses combined and have the bonus added. No one is going to want to spend AP on swim enhancement but if we had athletics enhancements, for example, that add to jump and swim and maybe something +1 Fort save it becomes a bit more attractive. Other skills that are more attractive on their own (IE UMD) are fine without the added incentive to take them.

[voodoogroves]

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

Would Stalwart replace (effectively) Dwarven Defender?

One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

Blade of Orien? Nonsomatic Chiurgen? I can beg if it helps get them to a commit ;-)

[sephiroth1084]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

Is it intentional for these to be melee-specific? Is this a psuedo-buff to melees relative to casters? Is it because everyone can swing a weapon and has HP, but only some have SP and spells?

Does the human/half-elf ability grant access to any of the PrEs the other races get, or to any PrE?

Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)

Is that implying that Tempest will have some AP added to its prerequisites, or have some of the feats replaced with enhancement prereqs?

It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.

Oh! Are we getting some combined skills enhancements? I'd enjoy that!

[Coldin]

I would like to see more attention given to Paladin's smite ability through Enhancements. A tree devoted to increasing it's damage, uses, and perhaps other affects would be very neat. The current enhancements has some of this, but not really enough that smites can be a paladin's primary area of focus.

[Aashrym]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Halfling: Assassin

In the books I've read they were more into devices and pictures depicting halflings they have typically been armed with a crossbow. Any thoughts on mechanic instead other than assassins are more popular currently?

[voodoogroves]

In the books I've read they were more into devices and pictures depicting halflings they have typically been armed with a crossbow. Any thoughts on mechanic instead other than assassins are more popular currently?

In eberron they are into healing and hospitality.

Except when they are into poisons and murder (Nonsomatic Chiurgen)

I'm fine with them getting Assassin.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am absolutely loving what I'm reading Eladrin!

I would hope that Dragonmarks becomes a project in 2012. I can see it really sweetening the deal.

Boy, breaking off PrEs from classes has got to be the best news I've heard from Camp Turbine in 4+ years. I think many will enjoy it (so many more build options will become available). I'm optimistic at this point that you "will do it right".

[Silverleafeon]

Happy dance...

[Pwesiela]

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

I am not a fan of this. PrEs are a specialization within your class abilities. Making an AA/tempest means you don't really choose. You should be limiting other options as you open new options within your class. What's the point of of Prestige otherwise? This would take a lot of convincing for me.

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?

[Battlehawke]

While most of these changes sound exciting, clearly some of the current "builds" will be broken. In other words I've spent years developing one of my builds into the ideal tank and the requirements after the changes may make my very effective toon very ineffective. There has been very little given by Turbine over the years to compensate us in any way after such a "nerf". With such "Ultimate" changes coming, will you give us all +20 GR token for each of our toons, or is this just another way to squeeze a little more money out of us to fix our own toons that are clearly going to be nerfed?

I'm not saying they all will be nerfed, just some. Clearly some will be made better.

[Failedlegend]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender Well My Dwarven Arcane Tank is gonna love that
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin Hmmm...any chance assassin stuff works with Ranged weapons...cause I have this Halfling artificer who's very inteligent
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. Any as in..any racial PrE or ANY PrE
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf Makes Sense

Comments in red....the forum build gurus are gonna have a field day with these...whats the timeline of this stuff...like next update or like 2013?