Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Nataichal]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


)

I see this as being either A)Overpowered B)Unbalancing and/or C)Creating a blend where it is far less meaningful what your class is.

[geoffhanna]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

What is the halfling special? Dino-rider?

(really hoping it is dino-rider)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

You'll always have party leader robots who only want cookie cutter builds that they think is "most efficient" or the "only way to win". However, by giving us so many more builds the ability to "get the job done" in more situations means more questing more of the time. This is a big boost to pugs, smart builders, and if the UI is improved, just about everybody will benefit.

If we see more communication like this thread, improved testing (for bugs/exploits), improved ui, finished pres, and druids this year - it will be a gigantic 2012.

[sirgog]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

IMO Warforged will not work well as Defenders at all until Repair Amplification items are added to the game, and at least some of those items are of comparable quality to the healing amplification items available today.

A Warforged Defender with 100% incoming Arcane healing and 101.4% incoming Divine healing (Healer's Friend 1, 20% amp item, 30% amp item) requires twice as much healing to tank a boss as a Human in the same gear (Human Imp Recovery 3, 20% amp, 30% amp for a total of 202.8% incoming divine healing).

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

[geoffhanna]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

Boo. patrly because Halflings do not get Dino-rider, but mainly because it is assassin.

I am so not interested in that. Assassin is an INT PrE but halflings are a DEX race. Is there synergy with the backstab bonus? Yes maybe, but assassin really just brings a whole buttload more abilities that don't apply to most of the end game.

If you're going to pick a rogue PrE out at random, pick Acrobat. Have a PrE ability that makes qstaff a finesse weapon, and another that allows you to apply DEX to qstaff damage. Way more synergy there than there would ever be with Assassin.

Or you could go all Eberron on us and make it a Halfling Barbarian PrE. Because we are playing in Eberron and all. And halflings are Barbarians in Eberron. Or at least many of us are.

But regardless, Assassin does us no favors at all. Seriously.

Meh, I am way too basking in happy Broncoland too get too worked up over this. Maybe tomorrow.


See? Happy faces all around

[waterboytkd]

I see this as being either A)Overpowered B)Unbalancing and/or C)Creating a blend where it is far less meaningful what your class is.

I have to disagree. As long as all races have a great racial PrE, overpowered doesn't apply (it's a relative term).

As for unbalanced, Stalwart Defender is probably going to be one of the best racial PrEs (+6 Con, +20% hp), but 2-4 races will have access to it. Halflings get Assassin, meaning any melee class can get access to a great insta-kill (though I might get rid of the Stealth requirement of Assassinate--just make it so you can't have aggro). We don't know how good Ravager is, but considering Horcs are the kings of melee dps, I imagine it'll just give you more of the same (great choice for one-trick ponies). Elves get access to good ranged dps (which a melee toon that wants more soloability might consider; MIGHT). Humans and Helves get access to, well, any of that. All of that sounds good (Ravager being unknown), so I don't think it's unbalanced.

As for negating your class, I think your class is still your core, and determines what you'll be mostly doing. I see the racial PrEs as ways to either expand your uses, increase survivability/soloability, or (making assumptions about Ravager) just give you MOAR dps.

So, I really like all this.

[Don1966]

from the Dev comments in here it seems that PrE's are getting a bit more make over than just the UI enhancement. would there be any chance of removing or changing the worthless prerequisites for some of the PrE's? for instance, radiant servant 1 and 2 requires improved heal 1 and 2, no cleric i know of puts any skill points into heal and would never spend precious AP trying to boost that skill. also prayer of life and incredible prayer of life are required, again i don't know of any cleric that would want to put an AP into this if they didn't have to, throwing out a heal and hoping for a crit on it to save the day is something no good cleric does. i could argue that improved turning is worthless but i realize some builds do turn and would want to take it regardless but there are a lot of builds that don't try to turn and for them that is another wasted AP. looking over the requirements for Pale Master i don't see anything in there that a pale master wouldn't take anyway. changing the cleric prereq's from improved heal 1 and 2, prayer of life 1 and incredible prayer of life 1 to the smiting line and improved turning to extra turning would make me very happy. of course if you do manage to roll out war priest my cleric will probably take that instead.

[Scraap]

One thing on pre-reqs and racials: can we get mental toughness to add a blue-bar, so things like aa or other ones you may add as a racial sla for instance are powered, even without resorting to a required class mix (or an enhancement line that's part of the pre its-self of course)?

[sirgog]

Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

You'll always have party leader robots who only want cookie cutter builds that they think is "most efficient" or the "only way to win". However, by giving us so many more builds the ability to "get the job done" in more situations means more questing more of the time. This is a big boost to pugs, smart builders, and if the UI is improved, just about everybody will benefit.

If we see more communication like this thread, improved testing (for bugs/exploits), improved ui, finished pres, and druids this year - it will be a gigantic 2012.

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

[jkm]

One other point for further options. It would be nice if Favored Souls had a polar opposite enhancement line for Cursed Soul. It would basically be like the light/dark monk and effectively add 2 classes to it instead of just 1.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

Outstanding news.

[LeLoric]

Wow seems like a much more ambitious plan than I had expected.

With changes of this scope I run into some pretty big concerns.

Most any character is gonna find they need a different feat or maybe don't need a feat for a prestige anymore. Hopefully some free feat respec tokens would be nice or better yet just lesser hearts.

It definitely seems like many more choices are available and lots of new build types are going to be out there. I always appreciated DDO in that every character is somewhat unique. Will this be too much though in that you can't recognize one fighter from another. Kinda makes pugging out a specific role a little hard to do.

With such a vast change and being able to combine and mix and match form different class/race options. Please oh please find a way to note which stack or make everything stack. Some things we have taken years to figure out through testing and having to start that process completely over again wihtout some definitive wording will be confusing/frustrating to players.

Will there be generic non-pre quailifying enhancements. There are currently enhancements that any prestige class would take like sneak attack training for rogues inspire courage buffs for bards. If these only count for one prestige it kinda makes other prestiges more gimp by nature. Or better yet have core enhancements like those above count towards any prestige.

[Scraap]

It definitely seems like many more choices are available and lots of new build types are going to be out there. I always appreciated DDO in that every character is somewhat unique. Will this be too much though in that you can't recognize one fighter from another. Kinda makes pugging out a specific role a little hard to do.

Notion on that: hows about changing the current class selection in lfms and party displays into PREs instead? If they are going with the notion of 'role is your pre, class is your baseline bag of tricks' anyway.

[LeLoric]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

If dragonmarked prestige is not to be included what then becomes of the tod set?

Oh and will the race/class combo of say a half-orc barbarian be able to get a better version of ravager or is a kensai half-orc gonna be a better ravager than a barbarian.

[azrael4h]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

Well, in that particular case, the Paladin gets to be more resilient, and able to help keep a party going longer, but they still won't have the burst healing of the Cleric. Most likely, they won't carry the gear to boost the aura and burst near as much either. Maybe a full Party of high Healing Amp Pally RS builds could raid without a dedicated divine, via just their massed auras, but I doubt 99% of the groups forming will have so many Paladin RSII builds in them to make Clerics or Favored Souls no longer needed. However, I do see more experienced groups desiring a Paladin RS build in the group.

Furthermore, as Eladrin said it would take a huge AP investment to take two full PrEs, I doubt we'll see that happening. Especially if more things are boosted into desirable status, like the Dragonmarks. AP's will probably be too tight even with cost reductions if there are more desirable enhancements to pick from.

I think we'll see 2/2 or 3/1 splits on the PrEs being taken for various builds, rather than a full Radiant Defender of Syberis type build. I also see more classes finding roles outside of their current niches.

I also doubt things like stances will stack; so I don't see Dwarven Double Defenders at all. Things like Rage canceling out Defender stances as well, Power Surge possibly being typed the same as Defender stance bonus, etc...

I do agree with Sirgog about WF not working well with Defender. I have gotten to the point that I will not run any of the tanking raids as a divine without a fleshy tank. Just so much easier to deal with, assuming some level of gear and competence from the tank in question. I'd almost rather have a meatbag rather than a WF Tank (meatbag meaning a normally dps build attempting to tank without truly being built to tank, like Barbarians). On top of that, I would like to see them get something different than Dwarves. I feel much the same about Half-Elves and AA, though at least that is understandable. Maybe give WF Kensai instead? And while we're at it, Half-Elves Acolyte of the Paper Bag. The tier 1 ability is a paper bag over their heads.

[LeLoric]

One good thing is when this hits lamannia I don't think they will have trouble getting people over there. Gonna take some vast research to figure out everything.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

I disagree with that first sentence. Its an overused statement that should not apply in many cases but is heard too often. On the rest of what you say, I agree totally. There is no doubt in my mind that this improvement will give a big head ache to those party leaders that like to limit their quests to only bard or only clerics or no rangers or no this or that. It wont be so easy anymore. And thats freakin SWEET!

We will be seeing quite a few more builds fulfilling roles in post Shroud to end game content that before just wasnt possible. There will be many more toons available alas less need to require only 1 type of build in order to accomplish a vital task in a quest/raid..

In content like epLOB, of course it will take a toon that has specialized for that level of content.

Now it may be possible to see more builds around with the math necessary to get more stuff done, and if so I think thats a very good thing.

[Silverleafeon]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.


There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

Thank you so much!

[Diib]

Is there any chance you will look at the PREs and divorce them from the classes. That is, let us choose our PREs with even more flexibility?

In PnP (I know this is not PnP) prestige classes had a variety of pre-reqs, and often to get a prereq required some of a specific class features (Temple Raider requiring so much divine and so much sneak attack, for instance). This would still require some rogue, and some one of the divine classes, but wouldn't be a pre tied to a specific class.

Right now, the closest thing you have to the original system are the racial pres (a good idea). But if you are going back to the drawing board why not do it right?

Requirements for a PRE should be feats, caster levels, bab, skill levels, etc. Not x levels of class y.

Just a suggestion.

[Missing_Minds]

That sounds like level gating and PrEs is going away if you are going to take two different PrEs all the way up. Unless it is the race/class allowances like current.

So is level gating going to happen still? I won't be upset, just curios.