LET'S TALK: The Shroud

[Aashrym]

And now those same think_im_ubers are excluding people out of Shroud Normal of all raids, according to people in this thread, and the implication is that the newbies only chance is to get in with these "think_im_uber" people in order to complete THE SHROUD ON NORMAL.

You are talking about replacing greensteel with full abishai and completed tod. From that comment alone you sound like the think_im_ubers crowd. That's insane right there.

New players do get in with good groups and also get excluded from groups. Both happen. Just because some do find the help they need does not mean we should ignore the ones who do not. Toning down the damage for the blades on normal will not stop anyone from teaching the players in the good groups but it might help the players learning the hard way a bit.

If some group of 12 level 20's wants to power their way through the blades running normal shroud then we are at a so what does that hurt point because they are choosing to run normal content over level that should be run by characters level 16-18. If they wanted something more challenging they would have higher difficulties from which to choose. Those players do have a lot more options and choices beyond GS.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You got a chrono 5 item set, thranes goggles, and tod set.

Where are you slotting 45 HP?

Chai, this comment right here illuminates just how out of touch I think you are with the very players you say are helping beat the current Shroud. How long do you think it takes most new folks starting at zilch, having no friends/no guilds yet, to wrap their paws around all that gear... on all or even some of their toons?

It seems there's a double purpose. Are you being genuine? No idea since I have no idea what server/guild you reside from.

You very well may be telling the truth. And kudos to you sir if you are telling the truth. I'm finding it hard to see how your positions correlate in game to your opinion in this matter on these forums. It's like two different people. Your motivation on the forums is in direct conflict to the work you say that you do on whatever server it is you come from.

In my opinion, I think you should step back and think about your position better, actually empathize with the other side of this debate and look for common ground. Because from my vantage point I'm just not smellin what the Rock......... [insert raised brow]....... is cookin'.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

and the implication is that the newbies only chance is to get in with these "think_im_uber" people

This is the crust of what you are not getting, and what runs contrary in your game/forum stances.

Not a single solitary sole has made this statement about the Shroud. Keep focused.

Its the people who DO NOT HAVE a "tour guide" such as yourself, and those who ARE feeling disenfranchised with the Shroud that I'm supporting. Many have told you that in this thread, lastly Aashrym, but you keep ignoring that sector of player. (The exact same type of player you say you help in game.)

[Chai]

Chai, this comment right here illuminates just how out of touch you seem to be with the very players you say are helping beat the current Shroud. How long do you think it takes most new folks starting at zilch, having no friends/no guilds yet, to wrap their paws around all that gear... on all or or even multiple toons?

If out of touch = running 8 normal shrouds per week, 4 toons times twice a week, completing 95% of the time while recruiting out of raid training channels on one server, running 2 more toons through twice per week out of raid training channel on another server, running Shroud in a permadeath guild on another server, then yea.....

....out of touch it is. Since thats not the definition of out of touch, and I do not fit that definition.....

....Im going to ask you to refrain from your campaign to outline how because of the fact I disagree with your assessment of the situation, somehow I am out of touch with the PUG scene on the servers I play on. You will be hard pressed to find people who go out of their way to invest in the strength of the PUG scene like the group I play with does.

The people you agree with have clearly outlined what their reaction has been to the current situation. Play with only those who they know, and heavily exclude everyone else from NORMAL difficulty SHROUD. This is far more out of touch than what Ive been up to in the past few months.

[Chai]

This is the crust of what you are not getting, and what runs contrary in your game/forum stances.

Not a single solitary sole has made this statement about the Shroud. Keep focused.

Its the people who DO NOT HAVE a "tour guide" such as yourself, and those who ARE feeling disenfranchised with the Shroud that I'm supporting. Many have told you that in this thread, lastly Aashrym, but you keep ignoring that sector of player. (The exact same type of player you say you help in game.)

You do know the difference between "implication" and "made a statement"?

Please, stop using new players as an excuse to get your autocompletion back.

The new players are not the ones on the boards complaining about this en masse, the vets are. They are using new players as an excuse. What the new players ARE doing, is completing 95% of the time when they use tactics. When they DO NOT use tactics, they SHOULD fail. Overgeared vets also fail when they do not use tactics and succeed when they use them.

I ignore the hogwash perpetuated on the forums on a daily basis.

I do not ignore players who need assistance in game. What I see in game on multiple servers does not support the level of overexageration I see on the forums.

Heavy exclusion from normal shroud? Paaahhhhleeeezz. New players DO_NOT_NEED vets to run normal shroud. They need one person with a few completions after the blades change to lead.

[Thrudh]

If out of touch = running 8 normal shrouds per week, 4 toons times twice a week, completing 95% of the time while recruiting out of raid training channels on one server, running 2 more toons through twice per week out of raid training channel on another server, running Shroud in a permadeath guild on another server, then yea.....

....out of touch it is. Since thats not the definition of out of touch, and I do not fit that definition.....

....Im going to ask you to refrain from your campaign to outline how because of the fact I disagree with your assessment of the situation, somehow I am out of touch with the PUG scene on the servers I play on. You will be hard pressed to find people who go out of their way to invest in the strength of the PUG scene like the group I play with does.

The people you agree with have clearly outlined what their reaction has been to the current situation. Play with only those who they know, and heavily exclude everyone else from NORMAL difficulty SHROUD. This is far more out of touch than what Ive been up to in the past few months.

Why do you run the Shroud so much if it's not a centerpiece raid anymore? Do you run any other raid 12 times a week?

Why don't you tell those players that all the Shroud gear is replacable and they should be running epic Chrono instead?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What the new players ARE doing, is completing 95% of the time when they use tactics.

If "new players" were completing 95% of the time, this thread wouldnt exist, and you wouldnt be sweating helping out all of the "less fortunates".

Im sorry but you'll never sell your story to me.

Oh by the by, where do I sign up to learn your shroud tactics. Please PM me this data. Id LOVE to come along one of these runs and see this for myself. You can give me a major "I told ya so!"

[grodon9999]

This is the crust of what you are not getting, and what runs contrary in your game/forum stances.

Not a single solitary sole has made this statement about the Shroud. Keep focused.

Its the people who DO NOT HAVE a "tour guide" such as yourself, and those who ARE feeling disenfranchised with the Shroud that I'm supporting. Many have told you that in this thread, lastly Aashrym, but you keep ignoring that sector of player. (The exact same type of player you say you help in game.)

I have, but it's a server thing. We have a whole new order of idiots on G-land.

[Chai]

Why do you run the Shroud so much if it's not a centerpiece raid anymore? Do you run any other raid 12 times a week?

Because its a great raid for training people for what to expect.

Why don't you tell those players that all the Shroud gear is replacable and they should be running epic Chrono instead?

Some of them are running chronos with us as well.

[grodon9999]

Overgeared vets also fail when they do not use tactics and succeed when they use them.

You've repeated this nonsense throughout the thread . . . why do you equate over-geared with bad play?

[Thrudh]

If "new players" were completing 95% of the time, this thread wouldnt exist, and you wouldnt be sweating helping out all of the "less fortunates".

Im sorry but you'll never sell your story to me.

Oh by the by, where do I sign up to learn your shroud tactics. Please PM me this data. Id LOVE to come along one of these runs and see this for myself.

Well, he did say 95% are completing when using tactics...

But I don't think 100% of Shrouds are using tactics. I know, every run I'm on, we complete, because either the leader explains what to do, or he's silent, I explain what to do...

But I'm guessing from all the complaining that there are plenty of PUG Shroud groups out there who don't understand how to avoid the blades. Personally, I don't think we need to change much... As time goes by, more and more people learn. Within a few more months, we might be at 95% completion across ALL groups.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have, but it's a server thing. We have a whole new order of idiots on G-land.

Hahaha, you may have a point there Grodon!

[Chai]

If "new players" were completing 95% of the time, this thread wouldnt exist, and you wouldnt be sweating helping out all of the "less fortunates".

Im sorry but you'll never sell your story to me.

Oh by the by, where do I sign up to learn your shroud tactics. Please PM me this data. Id LOVE to come along one of these runs and see this for myself.

This thread exists because Vets can no longer use the formula of overgeared + brute force = completion. They do not want to make the raid 10 minutes longer to teach players how to run it. They want to grab 11 players, blast through, collect their ingredients, and log onto the next toon, rinse repeat. When they can no longer do that, they exclude players they dont know in order to get the job done more quickly with minimal screw ups.

The blades hitting harder is not causing players who use tactics to not be able to complete the raid. It is causing experienced overgeared players who refuse to use tactics to fail.

[bhgiant]

snip

that's my guildy . Chai, I am sorry but I agree. I have tried to follow your posts in this thread and others and have been confused both by your positions and your retorts. Perhaps it would be best to give your position succinctly (may I suggest in bullet point style?) and give your support for said points in a similar fashion?

For example

Position: I agree with reducing the blade damage on normal and possibly hard

Reasoning
The Shroud has become less PUG friendly (according to my subjective observations)
- less people accepting newer individuals due to the threat of a failure in Part 4 (I myself am guilty of this travesty, I simply don't have the time to run Shroud multiple times every 3 days)
The Shroud is a lvl 17 raid and should not be as difficult as it is
- content difficulty should be such that 1st life at-level toons can complete on normal most of the time
- the Shroud is not an extreme challenge
- the blades create a situation where 1st life at-level toons do not have enough gear, skill, and HP to reasonably survive and is therefor too difficult for its level

Final Notes
- The Shroud is an incredibly fun and well-crafted raid. It has incredible flavor and mechanics. Many of us run it and enjoy it because of its relative ease after the 6th run or so. This has diminished as the added stress of failure has clouded the enjoyment. Please bring it back and give us back that experience. Those of us who want a challenge always have Hard and Elite.

There, not so hard. Clearly defined points that give others the opportunity to disagree and criticize and discuss and that I can defend with further information. It's not about being right.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But I'm guessing from all the complaining that there are plenty of PUG Shroud groups out there who don't understand how to avoid the blades.

Yes, that and many who are avoiding running it all together. From the number of LFMs, its clear the "PUG Shroud" is being avoided en masse.

[Missing_Minds]

What the new players ARE doing, is completing 95% of the time when they use tactics. When they DO NOT use tactics, they SHOULD fail.

I'm not going to support one side or the other in this debate, but I will say this.

When the cap was 10, and there was no AH, you used tactics or you DIED. Do you long timers remember the death penalty back then? I sure do.

Then the cap got raised.
Then the AH came into being.
And the cap was raised again.
All while raising the cap new more powerful stuff got released.

Oh look.. Death penalty went away...

With the stronger gear, less fear of death, and easier access to stronger gear, the idea of using tactics went bye bye only to be replaced with brute force. That became the new mindset.

The store and SP pots only helped this further.

The game was definitely harder when it was skill over gear. Was the game more fun? Meh, who cares really as that is a personal opinion. But when you had to think, you didn't snooze much, and piking was not an artform, it was rude.

I am of the opinion that the raid should be a challenge, but not impossible. The blade change was a bit of bs in my opinion. And only a bit. The blades themselves, however, are completely BS! due to their "god mode" #$!#$%@$#@ abusing the hell out of client/server position detection. If their collision detection was shrunk by half, MAYBE that would be enough to change the "instant death while running" BS we face with them. But the correct thing to do is to make them suffer the same things we do when trying to hit objects, and the same rate.

The fact we got so complacent just standing in blades... How many people stand in fire, burning, in real life? I'm not talking coal walkers, I'm talking standing in fire. Answer, very few, and those that do actually use tactics (and yes, gear as well) for the most part to survive it.

[grodon9999]

I officially declare this thread dead, my head's starting to hurt from reading it. Somebody PM me if any more exceptional silliness can't be missed.

[Chai]

But I'm guessing from all the complaining that there are plenty of PUG Shroud groups out there who don't understand how to avoid the blades. Personally, I don't think we need to change much... As time goes by, more and more people learn. Within a few more months, we might be at 95% completion across ALL groups.

Exactly. This is a great training ground for tactics use.

If it gets nerfed back to "autocompletion for all" status, then new players are going to breeze right through it like they did the rest of the game, get to another raid that does require some level of tactics other than "surround and pound" and get hit with the shock of having no learning curve one moment, and a steep learning curve the next.

How far does this rabbithole go. Do we then nerf TOD to autocompletion next? Oh my god guys, these hellhounds are wayyy too muuuch for the newbies. Lets have them be carebears on normal that breathe rainbows. TOD needs to be accessible!!!

Neg rep for this one too, by the same two people who hit me up like clockwork. I can predict to the hour when its going to happen.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I officially declare this thread dead, my head's starting to hurt from reading it. Somebody PM me if any more exceptional silliness can't be missed.

I'm out too, have fun Chai!

(Please PM me your server/guild data so we can meet up, would really like to experience your Shroud training run first hand....)

[Chai]

I'm not going to support one side or the other in this debate, but I will say this.

When the cap was 10, and there was no AH, you used tactics or you DIED. Do you long timers remember the death penalty back then? I sure do.

Then the cap got raised.
Then the AH came into being.
And the cap was raised again.
All while raising the cap new more powerful stuff got released.

Oh look.. Death penalty went away...

With the stronger gear, less fear of death, and easier access to stronger gear, the idea of using tactics went bye bye only to be replaced with brute force. That became the new mindset.

The store and SP pots only helped this further.

The game was definitely harder when it was skill over gear. Was the game more fun? Meh, who cares really as that is a personal opinion. But when you had to think, you didn't snooze much, and piking was not an artform, it was rude.

I am of the opinion that the raid should be a challenge, but not impossible. The blade change was a bit of bs in my opinion. And only a bit. The blades themselves, however, are completely BS! due to their "god mode" #$!#$%@$#@ abusing the hell out of client/server position detection. If their collision detection was shrunk by half, MAYBE that would be enough to change the "instant death while running" BS we face with them. But the correct thing to do is to make them suffer the same things we do when trying to hit objects, and the same rate.

The fact we got so complacent just standing in blades... How many people stand in fire, burning, in real life? I'm not talking coal walkers, I'm talking standing in fire. Answer, very few, and those that do actually use tactics (and yes, gear as well) for the most part to survive it.

Yes!!! Sheminanaya Shouldaboughtahonda!!! Especially this....

The fact we got so complacent just standing in blades... How many people stand in fire, burning, in real life? I'm not talking coal walkers, I'm talking standing in fire. Answer, very few, and those that do actually use tactics (and yes, gear as well) for the most part to survive it.

"Meh just stay in the blades and /ignore them" has been the accepted strategy for too long. Why even have the Shavarath Blades in the first place if they are no threat?