LET'S TALK: The Shroud

[MadFloyd]

This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

Controvery ensued.

It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?

[Scraap]

Just fix the multi-proc nature of the damage dealing mechanic.

[Moltier]

Just fix the multi-proc nature of the damage dealing mechanic.

Scraap!

Thats the only problem with the blades. They often do more damage then epic queen, on normal.
(or just add some kind of character defense)

[Dagolar]

I rather enjoy the changes. However..

Just fix the multi-proc nature of the damage dealing mechanic.

This. It's not the damage that's an issue- even before it was lowered again. It's that a single blade can hit you 8 times at once, due to how the damaging-boundaries/hitbox triggers. Add in having 6 blades surrounding and randomly switching aggro to [the healer] and it can get messy.

Up the damage again, and for each blade add in an [immunity to further damage from [that specific blade] for 3 seconds] buff after being hit by them.

Of course, that's the clean way to deal with it.

You could always keep it messy, run with it, and throw up Xoriat references everywhere. I mean, a chaotic shifting in planar alignments leading to an erratic confrontation with randomly spawning doom? You know Xoriat is into it.

[Havok.cry]

Please do not. Once a player learns how to avoid the blades it is not much harder than it used to be. Instead please devote time to fixing any lag/hitching/whateveratechnicalpersonwouldcallit that is in the shroud.

[Maxallu]

Honestly, IMO groups seem to have adapted and normal runs are being completed at a high rate. Now I prefer to run hard with all 20s to have a shot at 4 largest. I do think the end table could lose the smalls all together. They are a waste of an end reward.

[morticianjohn]

I think things are (nearly) back to normal for shroud PUGs. The requirements for people to be somewhat competent in HP and playskill have gone up so fewer lvl 16-17's are running it though I don't know that this is all bad.

[HGM-Chi]

The requirements for people to be somewhat competent in HP and playskill have gone up so fewer lvl 16-17's are running it though I don't know that this is all bad.

Whaaa? It's a level 17 quest. I would expect level 16 and 17s to be running it.

Anyhow, generally speaking I think the shroud be returned to the level of difficulty it was before the blades fix, and before the HP increases on hard/elite difficulties, but keep the increased rewards on hard/elite and the newest end rewards system.

Why? This allows newer players to acquire their greensteel more quickly than was previously available, and helps narrow the gap between newer players and long standing ones. Lets face it... the increase in difficulty on hard/elite has little impact on the people that are already well geared and knowledgeable, in tight guilds and well formed social networks... they'll be able to take advantage of the new chests and additional ingredients with little extra effort, which actually widens the gap between the new and the old.

[Postumus]

I think things are (nearly) back to normal for shroud PUGs. The requirements for people to be somewhat competent in HP and playskill have gone up so fewer lvl 16-17's are running it though I don't know that this is all bad.

Except it is a Level 17 Raid, so fewer level 17s running it is a BAD thing.

[Niv-mizzet]

No. They're fine. Groups have quickly adapted, and I haven't seen a fail since the 1st week after the change. I always thought it was silly to have the blades in there in the first place before when they were virtually no threat. Kinda glad that got changed.

[Galeria]

Honestly, I hated the new blade issues in the Shroud at first. Now, I think they add another obstacle but are not impossible.

I would probably vote to dial down the damage that they do on normal, but leave other difficulties alone. The extra chests IMO are worth the extra risk, but on norm it shouldn't be instakilling a level 17 player.

[RedDragonScale]

Honestly, I hated the new blade issues in the Shroud at first. Now, I think they add another obstacle but are not impossible.

I would probably vote to dial down the damage that they do on normal, but leave other difficulties alone. The extra chests IMO are worth the extra risk, but on norm it shouldn't be instakilling a level 17 player.

That was going to be my point.

At-level toons/parties are probably a little overwhelmed with how much damage the blades are doing in Part IV mostly.

I like how they spawn from when the bearded devils die but honestly, they do a little too much damage.

Just tone down a bit how much damage the blades do (in Normal difficulty only) so at-level parties will run Shroud and have a better chance to complete.

[Thorin2001]

Honestly, I hated the new blade issues in the Shroud at first. Now, I think they add another obstacle but are not impossible.

I would probably vote to dial down the damage that they do on normal, but leave other difficulties alone. The extra chests IMO are worth the extra risk, but on norm it shouldn't be instakilling a level 17 player.

This.
I like the changes after being very negative at first.
It is a raid after all and should be a kind of a challenge.
But remember: it is a lvl 17 raid on normal and lvl 17 chars should be able to complete it without beeing fully equipped. Maybe tune down the damage of the blades ~25% (on normal only) and/or add a reflex-save to halve or negate the damage.

[Drwaz99]

Either make them much less lethal or not have the ability to hit 20 times in an instant. Both together is the true problem. On normal..Hard or elite, hope you have some TR HP if you accidentally get hit by a few. And the end rewards still just plain suck.

[zavozod]

Cut back damage 30% on norm/hard. Elite is fine. Throw a reflex save in there.

[pSINNa]

Pugging this one a lot of Ghallanda under the new regime, and in pug a set of tactics has emerged that see's these pugs complete 8/10 times (the few failures come when listening skills and party co-ordination are zilch).

I'm a fairly lazy raider, but i can live with change as it stands. I lead a shroud a few days ago that everyone agreed was the most relaxing they'd had since the change, it can still be a bit of a cruise with a little know how and co-ordination, and i don't really see that as a bad thing.

Of course, when it does fail i shake my fist at the sky! lol.

(i'm' more concerned with edq, with not a single completion in pug since it's change, and only one completion running with a raiding channel gig once since then - lfm's have dried up to almost nothing, and the drops remain extremely miserly on this one....)

Coit out~

[Rheebus]

Pugging this one a lot of Ghallanda under the new regime, and in pug a set of tactics has emerged that see's these pugs complete 8/10 times (the few failures come when listening skills and party co-ordination are zilch).

I'm a fairly lazy raider, but i can live with change as it stands. I lead a shroud a few days ago that everyone agreed was the most relaxing they'd had since the change, it can still be a bit of a cruise with a little know how and co-ordination, and i don't really see that as a bad thing.

Of course, when it does fail i shake my fist at the sky! lol.

(i'm' more concerned with edq, with not a single completion in pug since it's change, and only one completion running with a raiding channel gig once since then - lfm's have dried up to almost nothing, and the drops remain extremely miserly on this one....)

Coit out~

The Shroud now has room for more casters or ranged DPS when it was exclusively filled with melee DPS in the past (+bard, 1 arcane, 1 or 2 healers). I haven't noticed any difficulty in completing the Shroud since leaders figured out that 8 melee is not necessarily the only way to fill. I've led hard Shroud PUGs with no problems on Ghallanda. Having the chance at a reflex save would be a good change. Those charactes tend to have lower hp, and clouds of blades seem just the type of thing that should allow a reflex save. If I can avoid a fireball, I should be able to avoid a few swords.

eDQ was ridiculous until we figured out to move the healers BEHIND the queen so her comet falls don't kill/knock them over. Healers, arcanes, and ranged DPS should stand behind the queen, but not close enough that she can spin around and hit you. Take 20-30 feet. Be sure to get displacements out to the party so the archers have a much smaller impact. Plus we SPAMheal once she goes into destruction mode. Since we figured these changes, eDQ hasn't been nearly so hard. An AC tank is also very useful if they can keep aggro while the rest of the party beats on her flanks.

I say the changes are fine. They keep the player base on their toes. I like change. It keeps me interested.

Not sure why I titled this "Fix eDQ." I don't think it needs fixing!

[sweez]

The Shroud now has room for more casters

Yes, but 'old' Shrouds didn't have room for casters not because casters sucked in them (and even before dots casters hardly sucked at shrouds since Harry is a straight mana-dump fight, same goes for soloing an elemental in pt 2, dots just made them insanely effective), but because group leaders were mostly ignorant. Even today you'll see plenty of raid LFMs up that take only 1-2 casters, even though the only raid where casters aren't outright superior to melee is Abbot.

[Stringer_Bell]

I rarely post on the forum but I would love to see it changed back. I am a fairly casual player with a family so I found it nice that I could log in and quickly join a shroud and go as there would be many shrouds posted. My guild is small so in order to run shroud I need to PUG. Nowadays, shroud runs are rarely (really rarely) posted and I miss running the shroud, as I think it is one of my favorite quests. It would be nice to see them posted again. The idea of switching the blades back on normal and keeping it for hard would likely make most happy.

Thanks for asking the community,
D

[BurnerD]

The only issue I still see is occasional game performance issues. In the past you could survive a little lag. Now it is much harder and sometimes just impossible. Kinda stinks when you get to part 4 and wipe because of party wide lag spikes.

I could see normal being toned down slightly maybe, but not much. Leave hard and elite alone.

I'm ok with the blades hitting as hard as they do. I am wondering if some changes to how they act would help. There are times will blades will sit on Harry at the beginning of the round and not move or disappear, making it difficult to melee him. This might not be intended.....