Insults, aggression and arrogance

[Daine]

Freedom means living alongside the jerks, really it's a pretty small price to pay.

[joneb1999]

All this is just hypothetical and Im interested in finding peoples attitudes -

Does someone who is insulted, threatened etc have the right to fight back and so if they are not so good with words or threatening attitude is it acceptable if they fight back using lawful authorities or using their fists even?

If you say no then how do explain how it is acceptable to make people suffer through verbal attacks that actually can depress them, make them fearful, bullied, leading to physical and mental illness and consequences including even taking their lives?

If people say its anothers fault for allowing themselves to become victims of verbal attacks then isnt it also a persons fault for making themselves victim to physical assaults or arrest and charged by the law? Person number 1 calls number 2 a stupid d******* and number 2 punches them. Who is wrong and who is right? Who is the victim? Didn't number 1 make himself a victim to no 2 after trying to victimise number 2first?

Are people who verbally attack in manners as being discussed just cowards and bullies who hide behind words and cry foul when the fight goes badly wrong for them just as loud as those they decry ?

[leadhead]

All this is just hypothetical and Im interested in finding peoples attitudes -

Does someone who is insulted, threatened etc have the right to fight back and so if they are not so good with words or threatening attitude is it acceptable if they fight back using lawful authorities or using their fists even?

If you say no then how do explain how it is acceptable to make people suffer through verbal attacks that actually can depress them, make them fearful, bullied, leading to physical and mental illness and consequences including even taking their lives?

If people say its anothers fault for allowing themselves to become victims of verbal attacks then isnt it also a persons fault for making themselves victim to physical assaults or arrest and charged by the law? Person number 1 calls number 2 a stupid d******* and number 2 punches them. Who is wrong and who is right? Who is the victim? Didn't number 1 make himself a victim to no 2 after trying to victimise number 2first?

Are people who verbally attack in manners as being discussed just cowards and bullies who hide behind words and cry foul when the fight goes badly wrong for them just as loud as those they decry ?

The people that fall in the "can be depressed by verbal attacks" category have a boatload of their own baggage already built up because they refuse to stick up for themselves. That is their problem and they need help to resolve those issues and there is plenty around all they need to do is ask for it. To suppose that everyone filter their words and emotions so that we all live in sterile padded cell type of reality is lame and detracts from the overall human experience.

Hey some people hate being born and they try to do everything they can to crawl back into the womb. Thats fine, knock yourself out if you want to do that, but leave me out of it, I will say what I choose to say.

[joneb1999]

The people that fall in the "can be depressed by verbal attacks" category have a boatload of their own baggage already built up because they refuse to stick up for themselves. That is their problem and they need help to resolve those issues and there is plenty around all they need to do is ask for it. To suppose that everyone filter their words and emotions so that we all live in sterile padded cell type of reality is lame and detracts from the overall human experience.

Hey some people hate being born and they try to do everything they can to crawl back into the womb. Thats fine, knock yourself out if you want to do that, but leave me out of it, I will say what I choose to say.

The question Im asking now is how would you feel if you were taken to court for slander, inciting hatred or on the other hand punched in the face for what you choose to say? I understand we have freedom of speech and its wrong to go round flailing our fists but should or shouldn't a person have to roll with the physical punches if they throw verbal punches?

[Ninety0ne]

All this is just hypothetical and Im interested in finding peoples attitudes -

Does someone who is insulted, threatened etc have the right to fight back and so if they are not so good with words or threatening attitude is it acceptable if they fight back using lawful authorities or using their fists even?

If you say no then how do explain how it is acceptable to make people suffer through verbal attacks that actually can depress them, make them fearful, bullied, leading to physical and mental illness and consequences including even taking their lives?

If people say its anothers fault for allowing themselves to become victims of verbal attacks then isnt it also a persons fault for making themselves victim to physical assaults or arrest and charged by the law? Person number 1 calls number 2 a stupid d******* and number 2 punches them. Who is wrong and who is right? Who is the victim? Didn't number 1 make himself a victim to no 2 after trying to victimise number 2first?

Are people who verbally attack in manners as being discussed just cowards and bullies who hide behind words and cry foul when the fight goes badly wrong for them just as loud as those they decry ?

If your skin is so thin you are emotionally damaged in a video game you aren't stable enough to be living outside a hospital where you can get help. Let alone on the internet or other risky places. just like a loudmouth who gets punched in a bar don't make your personality disorders other peoples problems. Being an emotional mess and a poor player is griefing squared
on anyone unfortunate enough to group with such.

[leadhead]

The question Im asking now is how would you feel if you were taken to court for slander, inciting hatred or on the other hand punched in the face for what you choose to say? I understand we have freedom of speech and its wrong to go round flailing our fists but should or shouldn't a person have to roll with the physical punches if they throw verbal punches?

Absolutely. You mess with the bull etc...

[joneb1999]

If your skin is so thin you are emotionally damaged in a video game you aren't stable enough to be living outside a hospital where you can get help. Let alone on the internet or other risky places. just like a loudmouth who gets punched in a bar don't make your personality disorders other peoples problems. Being an emotional mess and a poor player is griefing squared
on anyone unfortunate enough to group with such.

Absolutely. You mess with the bull etc...

Hmm how candid. I would love to see the people behind forum keyboards and screens going about their daily lives as unfortunatley all I have to go on from forums are what they write.

[Oobiedoobienoobie]

For the most part, on-line gaming is communication without consequence. What would you say to your boss if there was no consequence? To that customer? To the person in front of you that is walking too slow? Except for extreme behavior that can get you banned, there is little incentive to behave properly other than your personal integrity and a sense of respect for your fellow man or woman.

I really think blame the victim mentality is a harmful aspect of our society that really needs to be addressed.

I just want to say I agree with these two quotes exactly.

I am new to online computer gaming, and DDO is my first MMORPG. I didn't really want to try it because I had heard about the cultures of online gaming and how much they frankly suck. Sure enough, I play for a few days and ****, it's exactly as people told me. I see a lot self-entitled right to impatience and rudeness (an "eliteness" some are proud of) against others who are new to the status quo and trying to learn the game. One guy, for example, had a complete lack of verbal self-control, berating a player in my party for some stupid small thing, then told her it was -her- fault he was saying these things because -she- didn't have a thick skin. In another example, a veteran guild I was considering joining told me they wanted my personality to fit: the officers like to provoke drama and -make people upset-, especially on the ddo forums, because it's "fun."

So ok, I don't know how people think these things are acceptable, but frankly I'm appalled. I've experienced a crass degradation of basic civility. You can tell me I'm just not used to the culture, you can label me a newbie outsider, and that I should just "accept it," but then I'll be sad to have to tell people IRL that the DDO community is full of ass-holes. How can people possibly enjoy this game when you're forced to accept an environment that not only tolerates, but promotes and ENJOYS such poor behavior? This isn't a matter of being an overly-sensitive pushover who cries at the slightest comment, but about players who use that as an excuse to justify -all- jerk behavior regardless of who's receiving it. Just because this -is- a culture without consequence doesn't mean respect gets to be thrown out the window. Seriously, is that all it takes to give up one's principles? -That- is what I would call being "thin-skinned."

[Kominalito]

are We Just Talking About Khyber? Or All Servers?

Zing!!!

[leadhead]

Hmm how candid. I would love to see the people behind forum keyboards and screens going about their daily lives as unfortunatley all I have to go on from forums are what they write.

As I said before, I am actually a very laid back person and most of the time I am on the receiving end of jackassery. Does it make me feel peachy? Nope. But I also understand that there are no laws, or rules, or neurotoxins made by Pfizer that are going to change the situation. If that were true, it would have been done already because human beings have been taking the **** from themselves for 40,000 years now (or all the way back to the Pleistocene if you are a Cremo fan). Its just who we are. Sometimes you just have to deal with jerks, its just life...even in videogames were you pay to have fun, or restaurants or six flags.

I spent some years in the military...you learn to let it roll of your back in a hurry.

[Raiar]

There is absolutely no situation, online or offline, in which deliberately being a jerk is acceptable behavior. People here seem to be saying that just because jerks exist, that makes being a jerk acceptable. That's complete nonsense. People play multi-player games in order to hang out with people in a fun social environment, not in order to be harassed by a bunch of idiots.

[leadhead]

There is absolutely no situation, online or offline, in which deliberately being a jerk is acceptable behavior. People here seem to be saying that just because jerks exist, that makes being a jerk acceptable. That's complete nonsense. People play multi-player games in order to hang out with people in a fun social environment, not in order to be harassed by a bunch of idiots.

Absolutely...in case I was giving the wrong impression. Being a jerk is not acceptable behavior.

However, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. It is not acceptable behavior to be a jerk. But some people will be and its sometimes you have to deal with it.

[Daine]

There is absolutely no situation, online or offline, in which deliberately being a jerk is acceptable behavior. People here seem to be saying that just because jerks exist, that makes being a jerk acceptable. That's complete nonsense. People play multi-player games in order to hang out with people in a fun social environment, not in order to be harassed by a bunch of idiots.

...and there's the assumption that always fails, that your idea of fun is everyone else's idea of fun.

There are a lot of awefully arrogant surgeons about, basically they're jerks but I don't wish them to be any other way, that arrogance about their skills that bleeds into their everyday social interactions is the same arrogance that one day may save my life. The jerk of a criminal lawyer who every now and then gets an innocent client and defends him with vigour, good for him, he's upholding justice (on a good day). The arrogant scientist that cures cancer because he is so arrogant he just wont accept what can't be done; the arrogant physicist that solves the worlds energy problems, I want them around as well. The jerk/thug that grew up to be a soldier that defends us from evil, good on him for being a jerk, his early thuggery has made the world a better place.

I don't want all people to think like me. I don't want everyone to think that my idea of fun has to be everyone else's idea of fun. I want people to think differently. I don't mind that there are arrogant jerks, abusive jerks and all the other kinds. I don't want to interact with them, I minimise their opportunities to interact with me by avoiding most jerk hangouts; I live a happy life. The world needs diversity or we stagnate and eventually become unable to overcome the challenges that confront us.

So here's my thanks to the jerks of the world that are or went on to achieve something. Just because people have poor social skills or choose not to exercise good social skills online doesn't mean they're not making valuable contributions to society.

Asking for an absence of jerks is the same as asking for diversity to be cleared from the slate. I not only believe people have the right to be jerks I think we need some people to be so. Poor manners in an MMO, I'm grown up enough to handle it; asking for everyone to be the same, think the same, worship the same god, live to same rules, that always ends in disaster, despair, tyranny and death, I think the world has grown up enough to not want it. I know I don't.

[Oobiedoobienoobie]

...and there's the assumption that always fails, that your idea of fun is everyone else's idea of fun.

There are a lot of awefully arrogant surgeons about, basically they're jerks but I don't wish them to be any other way, that arrogance about their skills that bleeds into their everyday social interactions is the same arrogance that one day may save my life. The jerk of a criminal lawyer who every now and then gets an innocent client and defends him with vigour, good for him, he's upholding justice (on a good day). The arrogant scientist that cures cancer because he is so arrogant he just wont accept what can't be done; the arrogant physicist that solves the worlds energy problems, I want them around as well. The jerk/thug that grew up to be a soldier that defends us from evil, good on him for being a jerk, his early thuggery has made the world a better place.

I don't want all people to think like me. I don't want everyone to think that my idea of fun has to be everyone else's idea of fun. I want people to think differently. I don't mind that there are arrogant jerks, abusive jerks and all the other kinds. I don't want to interact with them, I minimise their opportunities to interact with me by avoiding most jerk hangouts; I live a happy life. The world needs diversity or we stagnate and eventually become unable to overcome the challenges that confront us.

So here's my thanks to the jerks of the world that are or went on to achieve something. Just because people have poor social skills or choose not to exercise good social skills online doesn't mean they're not making valuable contributions to society.

Asking for an absence of jerks is the same as asking for diversity to be cleared from the slate. I not only believe people have the right to be jerks I think we need some people to be so. Poor manners in an MMO, I'm grown up enough to handle it; asking for everyone to be the same, think the same, worship the same god, live to same rules, that always ends in disaster, despair, tyranny and death, I think the world has grown up enough to not want it. I know I don't.

That's nice and all, and I can appreciate your sentiment, but I actually work in the medical field and the mandatory competence required of a medical professional is no excuse for jerk behavior. I'd like to think the same standards apply to anyone else who is serious about their job, especially a job that is ultimately intended to "make the world a better place" via the many choice occupations you chose to list. In no way do I agree that disrespecting others is justified by what I do for a living, and similarly justifying such behavior by saying "well, I'm man enough to handle it and therefore it is legitimate" is equally disproportionate. No one is asking everyone to think the same merely because they ask for basic courtesy. Neither are they asking that you stop having fun. Just because you don't mind poor treatment upon yourself, doesn't make it anymore correct that others must endure it as well. (And by "poor treatment" we refer to that of the unreasonable variety, which has been evidenced.) In addition, comparing socially inept online jerks to arrogant physicians is pretty far-fetched. Surgeons might (and -only- might) be excused for such attitudes because their intentions are based on the care of others. Online gamers, on the other hand, have no such luxury and cannot be validated similarly, and in fact have intentions that are quite the opposite: purely mean-spirited. They are often pricks when there is no reason to be.

[Vint]

There is absolutely no situation, online or offline, in which deliberately being a jerk is acceptable behavior. People here seem to be saying that just because jerks exist, that makes being a jerk acceptable. That's complete nonsense. People play multi-player games in order to hang out with people in a fun social environment, not in order to be harassed by a bunch of idiots.

Let's see what you think of this. I put up an LFM for Wiz king at level. LFM says "Be able to solo a tower, know it" Pugger A joins comes out and follows me around in tower 1. I say go clear tower 2, and we can do 3 together. Pugger says "Clear what". At this point I realized that yet another person hit an lfm without reading what the LFM said.

Would you be one of the people that say "Be nice to pugger, you should show him what you know"? No deal! I consider Pugger A the jerk for (what I consider) griefing me. The LFM clearly did not say "training run" or "come pike".

I wont and can't feel bad if this guy gets yelled at. He took it on his own to enter a quest that had clear instrucitons and he thought that I or someone else would possibly just cover for him. If I am wrong in your opinion, oh well. I am not here to make friends or sugar coat anything. I dont care what baggage anyone is carrying in life.

In your opinion, am I the only jerk still? Pugger A was the good guy?

P.S. If you dont like my playstyle dont group with me. Creating your own party is easy to do.

[Daine]

Let's see what you think of this. I put up an LFM for Wiz king at level. LFM says "Be able to solo a tower, know it"

This clarity is always appreciated by me, it is rude to join a group with a clearly stated play-style and then try to run counter to it.

[rabbit512]

...and there's the assumption that always fails, that your idea of fun is everyone else's idea of fun.

There are a lot of awefully arrogant surgeons about, basically they're jerks but I don't wish them to be any other way, that arrogance about their skills that bleeds into their everyday social interactions is the same arrogance that one day may save my life. The jerk of a criminal lawyer who every now and then gets an innocent client and defends him with vigour, good for him, he's upholding justice (on a good day). The arrogant scientist that cures cancer because he is so arrogant he just wont accept what can't be done; the arrogant physicist that solves the worlds energy problems, I want them around as well. The jerk/thug that grew up to be a soldier that defends us from evil, good on him for being a jerk, his early thuggery has made the world a better place.

I don't want all people to think like me. I don't want everyone to think that my idea of fun has to be everyone else's idea of fun. I want people to think differently. I don't mind that there are arrogant jerks, abusive jerks and all the other kinds. I don't want to interact with them, I minimise their opportunities to interact with me by avoiding most jerk hangouts; I live a happy life. The world needs diversity or we stagnate and eventually become unable to overcome the challenges that confront us.

So here's my thanks to the jerks of the world that are or went on to achieve something. Just because people have poor social skills or choose not to exercise good social skills online doesn't mean they're not making valuable contributions to society.

Asking for an absence of jerks is the same as asking for diversity to be cleared from the slate. I not only believe people have the right to be jerks I think we need some people to be so. Poor manners in an MMO, I'm grown up enough to handle it; asking for everyone to be the same, think the same, worship the same god, live to same rules, that always ends in disaster, despair, tyranny and death, I think the world has grown up enough to not want it. I know I don't.

actually, in the hospital where my dad works, employees are strictly prohibited from "the use of profanity" or "any other kind of speech meant to degrade, insult, or hurt another person." in fact, they have been told that if they swear 3 times and it gets reported, they will be terminated (agree, disagree - if you want a job here you have to follow the policy). my dad's hospital isn't the only one cracking down on such behaviour that intelligent people used to be "justified" for using. you may think it's "cool" for doctors to be a jerk like dr. house, but realise that is a fictional scenario with fictional characters who more than likely would be unemployed in the real world because few hospitals would be willing to take on such a huge liability. having grown up around medical professionals via both my parents, i have seen PLENTY of them fired or sued because they could not learn to control their impulsive emotional outbursts at other people.

sure you can be a jerk. but if you have the right to be a jerk, people around you also have the right to respond to your attitude with an answer they feel is justified. so if you pop off at work, your employer absolutely has the right to fire you if he wants to.

it's been my experience that people who are both jerkish and arrogant quickly find the limits of what they can do for themselves and other people. a friend of mine is a phd candidate for a physics program and is also a self-proclaimed shmuck. no question he's the smartest guy i know. but he can never hold down a job where he has to work around other people. "so just tell him to start his own physics research firm for himself." and where do you get the capital if no one will hire you at first because they can't stand working with you? and how do you expect to be able to find people to work under you if most others can't stand you working under them? i'm sure jerks get things accomplished in society, but i have a hard time believing that they get the best grants from the NSF if they come off as arrogant or ungrateful.

i think you have arrogance and confidence confused. if i am rushed to the hospital because of an embolism, i want the surgeon working on me who is self-assured in what he can and can't do, and has a reliable team who wants to work with him. i don't want the surgeon who is so cocky that all the nurses talk about him behind his back in the OR.

for those who are saying that people with thin skin have emotional problems - sure. i agree. it should affect your personal view of yourself very little to not at all what someone in a game says about you. however, people who feel the need to be mean in situations where, i'm sorry, it's just not warranted, they are also emotionally unstable. has not psychology found the roots of bullying to be in insecurity?.....

tl;dr i still don't think there are any circumstances where the benefits of being a jerk outweigh the negatives.

[rabbit512]

Let's see what you think of this. I put up an LFM for Wiz king at level. LFM says "Be able to solo a tower, know it" Pugger A joins comes out and follows me around in tower 1. I say go clear tower 2, and we can do 3 together. Pugger says "Clear what". At this point I realized that yet another person hit an lfm without reading what the LFM said.

Would you be one of the people that say "Be nice to pugger, you should show him what you know"? No deal! I consider Pugger A the jerk for (what I consider) griefing me. The LFM clearly did not say "training run" or "come pike".

I wont and can't feel bad if this guy gets yelled at. He took it on his own to enter a quest that had clear instrucitons and he thought that I or someone else would possibly just cover for him. If I am wrong in your opinion, oh well. I am not here to make friends or sugar coat anything. I dont care what baggage anyone is carrying in life.

In your opinion, am I the only jerk still? Pugger A was the good guy?

P.S. If you dont like my playstyle dont group with me. Creating your own party is easy to do.

if you can be angry/annoyed/irritated with Pugger A without resorting to name-calling, flaming, or otherwise childlike behaviour, i personally don't consider you a jerk at all in the situation. no one is, after all, saying that other people's playstyles can't, or won't, frustrate you.

$0.02

[Vint]

if you can be angry/annoyed/irritated with Pugger A without resorting to name-calling, flaming, or otherwise childlike behaviour, i personally don't consider you a jerk at all in the situation. no one is, after all, saying that other people's playstyles can't, or won't, frustrate you.

$0.02

I understand childish behaviour. What I dont understand is why or how anyone condones what pugger A does. My actions are being critizied, but noone wants to hold puggers accountable.

If people say squelch and move on, cant the pugger do the same to me. I will call myself a jerk when people start holding puggers to standards instead of making excuses for the poor poor puggers.

[rabbit512]

I understand childish behaviour. What I dont understand is why or how anyone condones what pugger A does. My actions are being critizied, but noone wants to hold puggers accountable.

If people say squelch and move on, cant the pugger do the same to me. I will call myself a jerk when people start holding puggers to standards instead of making excuses for the poor poor puggers.

it could be one of two things. many puggers, i believe, have that first experience where they learn that every quest can't be a hand-holding session. if you happen to be that pugger's first experience of that, i'd call him horribly unaware. i'd also probably call him an unskilled player, but not necessarily a jerk (he just jumped in assuming it would be like all the rest).

i've been in a situation like that. pugger jumped in a "know it/window farming" deleras, and nearly cried when he deliberately fell off a path thinking it would give him stone skin (no idea how that was supposed to happen) and no one would come back to show him the way (not that delera's is the most confusing by any stretch). someone asked him what he thought when he joined the group. he just assumed that even if he didn't know it, he could do it just like all of the quests prior. there's a big jump between lvl 5 in the market and lvl 5 trying to do the delera's chain for a new player. and he was maybe.... maybe 9 or 10 years old. i did think that he had a lot to learn, but i didn't think he was a jerk as i felt pretty sure this was the first time he ran into a mildly difficult quest chain where "knowing it" would have been very helpful.

however, that's FAR less common than someone who doesn't read an LFM. i am deliberately expressive in LFM's. people say that they don't read them, but there is a reason that you have the ability to put that text in there. for those who refuse to read them, or read them and try to join anyway, yeah, i view that as a jerkish. i get rather annoyed when i'm trying to teach a quest, i say "casual pace, team players only, new players welcome" and someone joins and zergs the entire quest before anyone can learn anything. is that person being a jerk? in my mind, yeah. i'm not going to sit there and yell at him should it happen. i'll tell the party i wish we would have followed directions and stuck together, and i just won't group with the zerger again.