Changes in Epics and Implications for Assassins

[grodon9999]

Around what level do mobs start consistently having much higher than 1000hp?

The devils/orthons in normal AMrath when you're by yourself have about 1100-1200. Going by how much a lightning-strike puts a dent in the blue-bar.

[Draccus]

(ie it's almost impossible to have a vorpal that also does anything resembling useful dps, other than what, 2 named items?)

One of which is basically given away to every player in the game after a day in Crystal Cove.

[Malithar45]

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

See post seconds before this. ;P It shouldn't be a massive increase to our DPS as it is now, but that won't stop the masses from seeing it as yet another benefit to our already powerful PrE. Here's to hoping things don't get too out of hand.

Your last line about the helplessness change is interesting, please share. Guessing it may be what others have said concerning no more auto crit, but changed to double all damage? Could see that pushing Khopesh Str Rogues much farther ahead of Heavy Picks if you were to count the auto critting and burst/blast damage for them. shr plz!!1~

[Requiro]

(...)

Very close, but we're still letting vorpals do something.

We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

This cap is based on current hit points, not total hit points, so a damaged monster becomes vulnerable to weapon based instant death effects.

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

Note that some monsters still cast Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. That hasn't changed, and if they actually have the spell on, it'll stop death effects as expected. We just removed the blanket immunity most high level trash had.

For the monks out there, Void IV is not considered "zero opportunity cost". By that phrase, I meant "instant death effects that just sort of happen out of the blue, not because you actively chose to push a button and paid a cost in ki, spell points, or time (like Assassinate)". For the spellcasters, there have been some changes to a number of death spells, mostly increased damage on save and changed cooldowns.

(...)

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.


(...)

This is very very good news Pale Masters will we rule the world again... muhahahahahahah

[LordDamax]

I like to spread around the traffic.


I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

Hows about some details? All we have now is speculation. Current trends show we think it will stop auto-crits, but instead give a +50% to all incoming damage on the mob.

Which I can see why, if you're boosting SA by 50% would be a concern. My assassin is already a DPS nightmare. Increasing that 50% would be crazy.

Assuming it's 50%.

And assuming thats how it works.

[grodon9999]

One of which is basically given away to every player in the game after a day in Crystal Cove.

But it's situational, great in EDA and EColonoscope but not so hot against non-lawful targets.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great weapon and if it does start giving that extra 100 on 20s to bosses I'll be farming the **** out of EDA for Devil's Ruin Crystals until my eyes start to bleed.

[Seliana]

Sounds like casters throwing high level aoe damage nukes mixed with melee that have Vorpals equipped just became a style of epic trash killing.

Also, very cool on the rogues getting a spotlight in epics. They have been unfairly regarded as just trapmonkeys in epics for too long.

Kudos!

[Nick_RC]

Pale Masters will we rule the world again... muhahahahahahah

They rule the casting world already just more incentive to play em

[FuzzyDuck81]

That's true.


Very close, but we're still letting vorpals do something.

We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

This cap is based on current hit points, not total hit points, so a damaged monster becomes vulnerable to weapon based instant death effects.

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

Note that some monsters still cast Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. That hasn't changed, and if they actually have the spell on, it'll stop death effects as expected. We just removed the blanket immunity most high level trash had.

For the monks out there, Void IV is not considered "zero opportunity cost". By that phrase, I meant "instant death effects that just sort of happen out of the blue, not because you actively chose to push a button and paid a cost in ki, spell points, or time (like Assassinate)". For the spellcasters, there have been some changes to a number of death spells, mostly increased damage on save and changed cooldowns.

Do those spell changes include amendments to the HP caps for the power word spells? having the mighty (in PnP anyway) power word:kill actually be able to work on something beyond elite house D depths quests would be nice

[crazy7381]

*drool* I knew I shouldnt have tr'd my rogue just yet guess ill have to tr again back to a rogue at lev 20 were talking MoPG 30-50 reg dam 60-120 SA dam (100 vorpal dam) +24 enhancement damage +1 force dam +1-6 PG dam all i can say this is the greatest change I am all on board 200+ potential damage per swing build depending.

[Malithar45]

Also, very cool on the rogues getting a spotlight in epics. They have been unfairly regarded as just trapmonkeys in epics for too long.

See this is tricky. You're right, the player base at large does look at rogues as such. However, the ones that are more informed of the game, its workings, what different classes are capable of, etc, know that rogues rule epics as they are now. Hold + Haste Boost IV + Picks = most epic mobs beaten down solo by a rogue in 6 or 7 seconds. Toss in the better geared rogues, good builds, Lit II picks, Human Vers Damage Boost IV, H-Orcs additions from more PA damage and Str, etc. It gets sickening.

As you put it, I'd love a spotlight with the player base as a whole. However (depending on the changes to helplessness state...seems like its going to do more with Eladrin being worried..) we're already in the spotlight for those that know what we're capable of. Its going to be a slippery slope trying to balance such additions and improvements so that everyone understands rogues are good additions to any group, while not making us so OP that we get the nerf bat down the line.

[Ganolyn]

Very close, but we're still letting vorpals do something.

We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

This cap is based on current hit points, not total hit points, so a damaged monster becomes vulnerable to weapon based instant death effects.

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

Note that some monsters still cast Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. That hasn't changed, and if they actually have the spell on, it'll stop death effects as expected. We just removed the blanket immunity most high level trash had.

For the monks out there, Void IV is not considered "zero opportunity cost". By that phrase, I meant "instant death effects that just sort of happen out of the blue, not because you actively chose to push a button and paid a cost in ki, spell points, or time (like Assassinate)". For the spellcasters, there have been some changes to a number of death spells, mostly increased damage on save and changed cooldowns.

I just gotta say: This sounds much more fun. I just hope you find the right tweaks to damage vs uselessness.

[sirgog]

So if I understand this correctly, any mob that has more than 1000 current hp, cannot be vorpalled, smited or disrupted until they go under the 1000hp mark? It seems like that is pretty much making vorpal useless as I cannot think of any situations where you would actually want to use vorpal as opposed to an actual DPS weapon, especially considering how 'expensive' a prefix it is (ie it's almost impossible to have a vorpal that also does anything resembling useful dps, other than what, 2 named items?)

I don't really know many places where disruption is really that useful either, as its mostly used where the mobs have enough hp to make the 1/20 chance of instakilling them worthwhile. Removing seemingly random immunities is good and I guess this is more to help caster types with their instakill spells while trying to not let vorpal become the obvious weapon of choice. It all depends on the hp levels of mobs I guess.

Around what level do mobs start consistently having much higher than 1000hp?

Gianthold - 'Big' trashmobs have ~1k HP on Elite (Giants, Madstone trolls, etc)
Vale - Outsiders have ~1k HP on Hard (Shroud Orthons have a LOT more; ~3300 on Normal)
Refuge - Giants have a LOT more HP - similar to Shroud orthons; other trash mostly has ~1k hp on Elite
IQ/DD - most trash has ~2k on Hard and ~5k on Elite (EDIT: 5k is the red/blue/green Quori; the other mobs have wildly varying HP on Elite. Humanoids are probably ~2k, Dream Reavers may be 8k, but Polar Ray tests on the red Quori make me certain they have 4300-5100 hp)
Amrath - most trash has ~1k HP on 6-player Normal and ~2k on Elite (Amrath has very low mob HP)
Epics - most humanoid trash has ~4k HP; most of the tougher trash (Giants, Outsiders, etc) has ~6-10k; some have far less like the Devil Assault Tiefling Wizards (~1200; note the Master Warlocks have 3k).

EDIT - Eladrin has more accurate stats later; Normal only tho. 6 posts down.

[sirgog]

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

Leaving aside the helplessness change (I assume that's making Helplessness change from 'all incoming melee attacks are criticals' to 'all incoming damage is doubled, subject to Fortification'), IMO Rogues *should* do the most damage of all the melee classes.

They have the worst HP of any melee class, few prospects of acquiring a workable AC, no class-based DR, and overall poor defenses.

A Kensai Fighter that takes Epic Turigulon's aggro can usually survive just fine until the designated tank pulls it back (or maybe they were the designated tank all along). A rogue that pulls the aggro of a fast-attacking boss that deals 105 damage a swing is probably dead.

They are the glass cannon melee class - and their vulnerability should be rewarded with the highest damage.

[shadow_419]

Gianthold - 'Big' trashmobs have ~1k HP on Elite (Giants, Madstone trolls, etc)
Vale - Outsiders have ~1k HP on Hard (Shroud Orthons have a LOT more; ~3300 on Normal)
Refuge - Giants have a LOT more HP - similar to Shroud orthons; other trash mostly has ~1k hp on Elite
IQ/DD - most trash has ~2k on Hard and ~5k on Elite
Amrath - most trash has ~1k HP on 6-player Normal and ~2k on Elite (Amrath has very low mob HP)
Epics - most humanoid trash has ~4k HP; most of the tougher trash (Giants, Outsiders, etc) has ~6-10k; some have far less like the Devil Assault Tiefling Wizards (~1200; note the Master Warlocks have 3k).

Eladrin has posted that epic trash is getting a reduction in HP by 50% ish, so over all this seems like a good jump in dps.

[crazy7381]

Leaving aside the helplessness change (I assume that's making Helplessness change from 'all incoming melee attacks are criticals' to 'all incoming damage is doubled, subject to Fortification'), IMO Rogues *should* do the most damage of all the melee classes.

They have the worst HP of any melee class, few prospects of acquiring a workable AC, no class-based DR, and overall poor defenses.

A Kensai Fighter that takes Epic Turigulon's aggro can usually survive just fine until the designated tank pulls it back (or maybe they were the designated tank all along). A rogue that pulls the aggro of a fast-attacking boss that deals 105 damage a swing is probably dead.

They are the glass cannon melee class - and their vulnerability should be rewarded with the highest damage.

^^this agreed +1

[grodon9999]

Now more than ever rogues will need to work at leasrt 40% threat reduction into their builds. Glass-cannon have a tendency to shatter.

[Ganolyn]

Now more than ever rogues will need to work at leasrt 40% threat reduction into their builds. Glass-cannon have a tendency to shatter.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[Eladrin]

My only comment is 1000 HP seems low, I'd put it closer to 1500, and 100 extra on vorpal strikes... well... I guess thats ok. Theres no cost to it. I was going to say it feels low, but given it's an item effect, thats not too bad. 5% of your hits do 100 more damage. On average thats a boost of 5 damage per hit, thats nothing to scoff at. Vorpals suddenly become a nice DPS boost.

That's essentially how we arrived at the 100 number. We wanted it to be good, but we wanted Greater <x> Bane to also have a place.

Non-boss monsters on normal difficulty creep past the 1000 hp mark around Amrath, but we're talking numbers like "The bearded devils and orthons have an average of 1050 hit points". Raid monsters tend to be higher - the giant skeletons in the Subterrane average around 1225, but Shroud orthons are around 3750. Some especially beefy monsters, like the Frost Giants in Reaver's Reach, have a ton of hit points while the things around them don't. (Ah, I see I got beaten to this list.)

I assume that 100 damage doesnt apply to non-vorpalable mobs however...

That's true - it shouldn't function on beholders or other non-vorpalable creatures.

Hows about some details? All we have now is speculation. Current trends show we think it will stop auto-crits, but instead give a +50% to all incoming damage on the mob.

Which I can see why, if you're boosting SA by 50% would be a concern. My assassin is already a DPS nightmare. Increasing that 50% would be crazy.

Assuming it's 50%.

And assuming thats how it works.

That's a pretty good assumption. A very good one.

• Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied). A critical hit on a helpless monster will deal 50% additional critical damage as expected.
• Players that are helpless take additional damage based on the dungeon difficulty:
  * Solo/Casual: +5%
  * Normal: +10%
  * Hard: +15%
  * Elite: +20%
  * Epic: +25%
• Creatures that are helpless are denied their dexterity bonus to armor class, and suffer an additional -4 penalty to armor class.

Do those spell changes include amendments to the HP caps for the power word spells?

Yes. Major changes have been made to any spell with HD and HP caps. We'll talk about more of the spell changes soon.

Leaving aside the helplessness change (I assume that's making Helplessness change from 'all incoming melee attacks are criticals' to 'all incoming damage is doubled, subject to Fortification'), IMO Rogues *should* do the most damage of all the melee classes.

I agree with this. Their attacks are situational, and they're highly explosive. They're going to be very strong though, and we may end up having to adjust something. (Which could simply be "sneak attacks are no longer affected by the helplessness vulnerability", but I hate that for thematic reasons. That's one reason I'm willing to watch and see how things play out.)

[SableShadow]

Cue mass invasion of the rogue boards.

Wipe your feet, there's beer in the fridge....and for the love of all that's (un)holy, put some pants on!

see, coming back to the game was a good THING!

Their attacks are situational, and they're highly explosive. They're going to be very strong though, and we may end up having to adjust something.

After five years, we might finally get the opportunity for a real, honest, class-targeted, OP nerf...brings a tear to the eye.