Changes in Epics and Implications for Assassins

[Seliana]

Sounds like the ideal 6 man scroll farming party would be 1 Crowd Control (Wizard Mass Holding), 1 AOE dps (Archmage or Savant), 1 Healer (FVS/Cleric), and 3 Rogue Assassins.

Assuming everyone had high enough stats/dc's/hp/sp, it looks like that would be the most DPS possible to trash clear with if you weren't planning on completing.

I estimate that normal 6-12 main epics that do plan to finish will probably involve 2 or more differently specced Arcanes and 1 or more Rogues now.

Which happens to be all three classes I play... Woohoo!

[LeLoric]

Sounds like the ideal 6 man scroll farming party would be 1 Crowd Control (Wizard Mass Holding), 1 AOE dps (Archmage or Savant), 1 Healer (FVS/Cleric), and 3 Rogue Assassins.

Assuming everyone had high enough stats/dc's/hp/sp, it looks like that would be the most DPS possible to trash clear with if you weren't planning on completing.

I estimate that normal 6-12 main epics that do plan to finish will probably involve 2 or more differently specced Arcanes and 1 or more Rogues now.

Which happens to be all three classes I play... Woohoo!

You meant to say 6 palemasters.

[grodon9999]

Low 90s AC, however, is already godmode in epics (except against bosses). A guildie's 87AC thief-acrobat was hit only four times while leading onto all bases in eVON6.

Low 90s is what's needed to tank Elite Horoth, the king of hell for christ's sake. A loin-clothe wearing orge with a wooden club shouldn't have his to hit.

I've done experiments in low-mid 80s and my observations do not match what you are stating.

[voodoogroves]

Or 1 bard 5 rogues.

Tempest attack speed not a shabby option either if they are winging good weapons. Like the CC scimmies.

[sirgog]

Low 90s is what's needed to tank Elite Horoth, the king of hell for christ's sake. A loin-clothe wearing orge with a wooden club shouldn't have his to hit.

I've done experiments in low-mid 80s and my observations do not match what you are stating.

That's because there is a huge difference between 83 AC and 92 AC.

Horoth (elite, not debuffed - the community believes he's +74 to hit after Shavarath GH) hits the former on a 9 - 60% of the time. He needs an 18 for the latter (15% chance).

It's murkier on the Epic trash mobs due to Minion's attack roll debuff, but an Epic mob with +83 to hit (prior to Minion) hits 83 AC 52.25% of the time, and hits 92 AC 18.75% of the time.

50% isn't godmode. 18.75% is.


IMPORTANT EDIT: To AC tank epic rednameds, you absolutely MUST have an arcane debuffing the boss's Strength, and preferably a melee doing so as well. Next time the highest AC tank in guild and I run Devil Assault epic together, I'll test if he can AC tank a debuffed Turigulon, he's the highest CR epic rednamed and he's an Outsider who generally have high base attack bonuses and high Strengths, so he's probably the hardest Epic rednamed to AC tank. Now to find a Weakening Silver of Pure Good weapon (or a Holy Silver of Enfeebling one)...


(Edit - minor corrections as my math was out; didn't consider what happens when the Minion roll and the Attack roll are equal - that's a hit on 2-20 and a miss on 1.)

[bradleyforrest]

You're soaking in it. /Madge

Nice reference

Seems perhaps that this might be a slight bump for good will saves?

Nah, FoM will still be the best defense. Will save will really only be useful in low level quests against Hold Person.

[Xaxx]

I've been... richard teased... less by spending 4 hours in a gentlemans club than what el's doin to us with this update.

[sirgog]

Nah, FoM will still be the best defense. Will save will really only be useful in low level quests against Hold Person.

Except for those pesky Trolls that love to hit you with a high DC Stunning Blow..... and they aren't the only mobs that do it either.

[Cyr]

You meant to say 6 palemasters.

Yeah, 50% extra damage to held targets from all sources seems to favor arcanes the most.

[Seliana]

You meant to say 6 palemasters.

I doubt that, first off epic spell penetration checks mixed with new high fort dc's that just got increased will almost certainly prevent multiple mass wails from becoming a standard tactic. Only some crazily built multi-tr wizards will be able to pull this off and those are pretty rare.

I could see one but probably not six in an average party so I don't feel it will become an issue. Drow Pale Masters take quite a bit of skill to play properly in epics without dying, due to a lack of reconstruct type healing and how easy it is to get mobbed and killed by surrounding yourself in epic trash to try and wail it. Pale Masters using Wail will become a niche like everything else, not something you want to build a party on.

[jurzey]

I approve.

[maddmatt70]

You meant to say 6 palemasters.

Depends on a) how good those palemasters are in terms of dc, b) what quest you are running (not sure if the palemasters are going to be landing stuff left and right with mobs in ADQ1 for example receiving a huge save bump). Just in general getting a bunch of casters and going nuke crazy seems like a solid way to go all things considered so would not have to be palemasters, but wizard/sorc.

[Schmoe]

Wow, these changes look fantastic. I'm actually looking forward to running epics following Update 9. I do want to point one thing out, though.

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

I'm thinking it will be much harder now to get Mass Hold to stick. I predict that Update 9 will bring the gnashing of teeth from many enchantment Arch Mages.

All hail your new Pale Master overlords

[Nick_RC]

Drow Pale Masters take quite a bit of skill to play properly in epics without dying, due to a lack of reconstruct type healing

Blatantly incorrect.

[Schmoe]

Depends on a) how good those palemasters are in terms of dc, b) what quest you are running (not sure if the palemasters are going to be landing stuff left and right with mobs in ADQ1 for example receiving a huge save bump). Just in general getting a bunch of casters and going nuke crazy seems like a solid way to go all things considered so would not have to be palemasters, but wizard/sorc.

Unless they buff damage from epic trash and throw in some enemy dispels from time to time, 6 pale masters with firewalls will be god-mode in epics, just as it is everywhere else now.

[LordDamax]

We believe that placing some of the burden of threat management on the DPS classes is good.

Since we have your ear and you're passing out info Eladrin - there is a lot of confusion as to the stacking of threat mitigation for rogues. What stacks? How does it stack? Healing Amp self-multiples (20% + 10% is not +30%, its +32%). Does the Tharnes Set stack with the assassin set? What does the reaver sword stack with? My rogue has always focused on maxxing out her threat mitigation because she dumps out so much DPS. Knowing what I'm working with couldnt possibly hurt anything.

[noinfo]

Why can I not give you rep multiple times?



AC is viable against everything except Lailat and Velah at present.

It's not possible to have AC trivialise incoming melee damage (like a 91 AC trivialises Elite Horoth's melee attacks after he cops -6 Str from Waves of Exhaustion), but 85-90 AC is a useful defense against basically everything but the big two (and possibly eChrono bosses and eTurigulon, never tested them)

It is useful against trash yeah, but anything named seems to be able to hit far to easy. And grazing its are a joke.

[noinfo]

Agreed on saves - for all purposes except traps and unique raidboss abilities like Velah's breath, saves of 36 are equivalent to saves of 50 - you succeed 95% of the time with either. This should change.

Low 90s AC, however, is already godmode in epics (except against bosses). A guildie's 87AC thief-acrobat was hit only four times while leading onto all bases in eVON6.

I can break more than that and it is certainly not god mode.

[noinfo]

Low 90s is what's needed to tank Elite Horoth, the king of hell for christ's sake. A loin-clothe wearing orge with a wooden club shouldn't have his to hit.

I've done experiments in low-mid 80s and my observations do not match what you are stating.

Agree with you on this one as well.

[tihocan]

We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

So basically, vorpal just got hit really hard with the nerf bat?

If a monster is under 1k HP, you can kill it in less than 20 swings with a DPS weapon, so there is no need to go vorpal.
If a monster is above 1k HP, your vorpal only gives you +5 dmg / hit, which is not as good as, say, holy (+7 / hit), which is supposed to be a "lesser" weapon enhancement.

Now the only reason I can see to use a Vorpal weapon is if it's a named weapon that was already good DPS, and for which the +5 dmg/hit obviously makes it even a bit better (e.g. cutlass / chaosblade vs. lawful monsters). Or I guess if you're meleeing just for support, and are not actually a melee DPS class (e.g. a casting-focused cleric or bard). That seems indeed quite a small niche overall.