Changes in Epics and Implications for Assassins

[Draccus]

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Very close, but we're still letting vorpals do something.

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Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content.

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Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters

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*stammer*

*stutter*

*drool*

*passout*

WOW! I was TOTALLY, HAPPILY off in how you'd treat assassins in the new epics! I guess the negative rep I got for my post above is completely warranted!!

Thanks for the info, Eladrin.

And Bigjunk, I was going to post that I agreed with most of what you said...but Eladrin's comments stole my attention

[dkyle]

Hmmmm....it seems Eladrin has already been thinking about this. I like it but I think the damage should be more than 100 agaisnt Bosses or creatures that currently have over 1000 HPs. It should be more like 250-500 damage.

100 is about right, I think. That's 5 per hit on average. Much more, and Vorpal becomes the most desired prefix for DPS, let alone the insta-kill.

[elujin]

time to level my horc 19/1 assassin monk some more

[grodon9999]

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

Those Crystal Cove Scimitars have just become the best weapons in the game haven't they?

[maddmatt70]

So will these changes be coming to epics this update? Very interesting. With the increase in monster saves and decrease in monster hit points the game could become a firewall fest again. Run to the firewall point and drop a firewall and caster dance around until mobs are dead. I could see that becoming a real prevalent style again. Is there some way to discourage that because I think that is a boring way of playing. Any chance you can change monster ai in some way to prevent that from happening?

[knightgf]

During the cycle, we experimented with a lot of numbers, including changing it over to just damage all the time (no hit point cap). We were trying to create a useful niche for the weapon without obsoleting most other damaging weapon mutations.

Rather than numbers, why not try percentages? If a monster is hit with a vorpal effect and has more than 1000 HP at the time it took place, it should be dealt damage in the form of, say, 20-25% of it's current HP? While you could experiment around with numbers, I think percentages would get you much closer to the balance you seek with vorpal.

One thing I might also add: If you hit a monster with a limbchopper effect in epic, in addition to dealing the usual damage, I believe it should be delt somewhere around 5-10% of its current HP, with a instant-death effect if it is below 250-500 HP. Surely the loss of one's limbs will cause a noticeable decrease in its vitality...

[NeutronStar]

During the cycle, we experimented with a lot of numbers, including changing it over to just damage all the time (no hit point cap). We were trying to create a useful niche for the weapon without obsoleting most other damaging weapon mutations.

100 is about right, I think. That's 5 per hit on average. Much more, and Vorpal becomes the most desired prefix for DPS, let alone the insta-kill.

Very well then. I will withold further judgment and wait to see how it plays out.

[sirgog]

I like this a lot.

Vorpal goes from a useless ability at endgame (except in Amrath and the Subterrane) to a situationally powerful one.

Assassin rogues get 5 free damage on every swing against bosses (average) and the toughest of trash.

Assassin rogues get to killsteal like crazy against the toughest trash.

I like.

[EatSmart]

Note that some monsters still cast Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. That hasn't changed, and if they actually have the spell on, it'll stop death effects as expected. We just removed the blanket immunity most high level trash had.

Is there going to be any change to the caster level of epic level mobs when casting hard-immunity type buffs? Currently a typical caster level for epic NPCs is 36-38 for even trash. Greater dispell cannot break this as the check is D20+PC caster lvl [hardcapped by spell at 20] vs 11 + npc caster level. We're needing to roll against target numbers of 47-49 on a d20+20, which is physically impossible. Even using disjunction, there's little (if any?) way to boost adjuration caster level over lvl 20 anyway.

[Nick_RC]

So will these changes be coming to epics this update? Very interesting. With the increase in monster saves and decrease in monster hit points the game could become a firewall fest again. Run to the firewall point and drop a firewall and caster dance around until mobs are dead. I could see that becoming a real prevalent style again. Is there some way to discourage that because I think that is a boring way of playing. Any chance you can change monster ai in some way to prevent that from happening?

Aye thinking through the changes last night I can see casters/off casting clerics pwning all again and bringing melees along for the bosses.

[Chai]

I don't think you can nerf Assassin III in epics since it currently doesn't work in epics at all!

My guess is that the change will allow insta-kill spells (like Finger of Death or Wail of the Banshee) to work in epics but not melee vorpals. Since those spells consume a limited resource (spell points) and vorpals do not, that's how I read the "zero opportunity cost" piece.

This is due to the arcane types complaining about being "worthless" in epics. Of course, by "worthless" they mean "phenomenal and nearly required as a support character but not leading the kill count so I need to whine."

Turbine's goal, it seems, is to make epics play just like non-epic quests, with casters wailing everything in sight and melees tagging along for the ride to the boss. I guess epics are just too hard for the worst players and Turbine continues to cater to the least common denominator.

/agree.

If we could somehow quantify the "worth" or arcane -vs- rogues in epics, I think we would see that arcane are miles ahead of rogues.

This is due to the arcane types complaining about being "worthless" in epics. Of course, by "worthless" they mean "phenomenal and nearly required as a support character but not leading the kill count so I need to whine."

This part is especially true. I have never played a game and seen more people who play a class that can solo the entire zone complain about being somehow more worthless than classes who effectively cannot.

[Draccus]

Those Crystal Cove Scimitars have just become the best weapons in the game haven't they?

All part of a master plan, I'd guess.

Problem: Casual players don't play epics and we are losing them at endgame.

Solution step 1: Give casual players the most powerful weapon in the game with little effort.
Solution step 2: Change endgame so that that weapon is the best weapon to use in epics.

Result: Casual players flock to epic content.

But assassins are getting epic vorpals and assassinate in epic quests so I don't care any more

[Malithar45]

So we all just got a free pair of Epic Charged Gauntlets that work on everything.

Don't nerf us in a few updates brah.

[Eladrin]

Cue mass invasion of the rogue boards.

I like to spread around the traffic.

They were already top of the dps chain in alot of situations...extra 100p of dmg on a 20...

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

Those Crystal Cove Scimitars have just become the best weapons in the game haven't they?

The Chaosblades are more impressive in general.

[dkyle]

Those Crystal Cove Scimitars have just become the best weapons in the game haven't they?

Vs. Devil bosses, they now edge out LitII Scimis, but probably not LitII Khopeshes.

[Auran82]

We've removed arbitrary inherent death wards from virtually all non-boss monsters in the game, and changed instant-kill weapon effects to:

1) Kill the monster outright if it's at or below 1000 current hit points.
2) Deal a chunk of damage (that varies on effect type - vorpal deals more damage than disruption, but does it 1/20th as often) if the monster is over 1000 current hit points or is a boss. For example, if you 'vorpal' a monster that's above 1000 hit points, it will deal 100 extra untyped damage.

This cap is based on current hit points, not total hit points, so a damaged monster becomes vulnerable to weapon based instant death effects.

So if I understand this correctly, any mob that has more than 1000 current hp, cannot be vorpalled, smited or disrupted until they go under the 1000hp mark? It seems like that is pretty much making vorpal useless as I cannot think of any situations where you would actually want to use vorpal as opposed to an actual DPS weapon, especially considering how 'expensive' a prefix it is (ie it's almost impossible to have a vorpal that also does anything resembling useful dps, other than what, 2 named items?)

I don't really know many places where disruption is really that useful either, as its mostly used where the mobs have enough hp to make the 1/20 chance of instakilling them worthwhile. Removing seemingly random immunities is good and I guess this is more to help caster types with their instakill spells while trying to not let vorpal become the obvious weapon of choice. It all depends on the hp levels of mobs I guess.

Around what level do mobs start consistently having much higher than 1000hp?

[grodon9999]

All part of a master plan, I'd guess.

Problem: Casual players don't play epics and we are losing them at endgame.

Solution step 1: Give casual players the most powerful weapon in the game with little effort.
Solution step 2: Change endgame so that that weapon is the best weapon to use in epics.

Result: Casual players flock to epic content.

But assassins are getting epic vorpals and assassinate in epic quests so I don't care any more

You class-*****!

I can't pretend to be any different, a tempest III swinging vorpals is is now a hell of a lot sexier.

And good riddens to the minion save-debuff, I like my dorf's 50 stunning blow DC to mean something and not be over-kill.

If mobs to-hits are getting lowered so AC is useful I won't be able to get up from my desk . . .

[LordDamax]

Assassin III is treated as a vorpal weapon, so is now hit point capped but now has an effect in high level content. Assassin II is treated as a death effect with an opportunity cost, so does not have any hit point related restrictions. You can go ahead and assassinate epic monsters (or monsters in previous death warded dungeons), but be warned that we've also reduced the penalty epic trash has to their saves from the minion debuff (and chopped their hit point to about half of what they were before).

Thank you 100 times over.

I would infinitely rather have a crazy small chance of having something work, than a zero chance of it ever working.

Even if assassinate only worked in epic 5% of the time, it's better than 0% of the time.

I never understood why you get amazing abilities at level 18, then they stop working at level 20.

This is game changing, for the better. In the other thread I'm pretty meh and lackluster about the sorc PrE, but this change is 100% in the right direction.

My only comment is 1000 HP seems low, I'd put it closer to 1500, and 100 extra on vorpal strikes... well... I guess thats ok. Theres no cost to it. I was going to say it feels low, but given it's an item effect, thats not too bad. 5% of your hits do 100 more damage. On average thats a boost of 5 damage per hit, thats nothing to scoff at. Vorpals suddenly become a nice DPS boost.

I assume that 100 damage doesnt apply to non-vorpalable mobs however...

[dkyle]

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

Helplessness is multiplying all damage instead of granting auto-crits, isn't it?

[Coldin]

I won't hide the fact that right now I am actually pretty concerned with how much rogue damage will be increased by Update 9. We'll be watching things, and there may be adjustments to certain abilities in the future. It's not this change that makes me worry about that as much as the helplessness one.

This makes me wonder what those changes are. Having a mechanic rogue myself, I hope it's not just Assassin rogues receiving a crazy, overpowered, dev-worrying, buff.