Touch of Death Change

[Schwarzie]

OK, well there's one right here... This one uses improved destuction in epics.. As well as improved shattermantle when neccesary on raiod bosses... My fighter does as well... In fact My casters, bard, and clerics all carry both of those for use when needed...

Same here (ok not for my Casters, but those guys running around with several Melee weapons.

But I will concede that when the flavor of the month builds which are typically min/max, with every ounce of build/equipment resources going into one specific area are nerfed, it's frustrating... But I also am mystified as to why it's always the same people year after year that end up in these arm flailing rants (not pointing at you) about such builds on how they're nerfed. Dark monks are clearly in this catagory......

I dont think that this will ever change
BTW +1 to your earlyer Post.

They have other options in those cases. A dark monk has the single ability. This lowers DPS as a whole, providing no alternative to make up the difference.

Other options they have my Padawan. Which are also weaker options... Firewall is, by FAR, the most efficient Spell a Arcane Caster can use to inflict damage. If this spell doesnt work its a huge hit to their mana efficiency to damage opponents.

building one-trick-pony-flavour-of-the-month-builds was never without risk. And a sure sign for a hard nerf was always the current direction most of the Powergamers took. Simply becaue there is a reason they head that way... And i saw several new Monks in the last month.

[rimble]

Removing the word "Nerf" seems a little more dubious than just post consolidation... Nerf has a definitive negative connotation, and I believe the OP intended that.

This isn't that thread anymore. It's all ToD threads, merged into one. Some for, some against. Now it's the Change thread, not the Nerf thread. Not that I think this was necessary, but whatever, it's what they wanted.

They're just consolidating info, and changing the title to more accurately reflect the current contents of the thread. It's not censoring or anything, let's not get off on that pointless tangent. Stick to the ToD stuff. And don't be surprised to see this and other irrelevant posts (like the first two pages of people that couldn't find the mention of this change in the release notes) that are off-topic to the ToD subject get deleted. Don't get all up in arms about it. It's just weeding out the crud to focus on the true topic.

[SINIBYTE]

Why was the thread name changed from "Touch of Death Nerf" to "Touch of Death Change"?

Wow... I for one would like an explanation as to how the original title violated the forums' ToS. I suppose the classification of this change as a "nerf" is very slightly opinionated (all those max-WIS dark monks out there rejoice!), but I didn't realize we weren't allowed opinions that differed from the devs.

Yeh, apparently this "nerf" is now a "change". I suppose some censorship is due to keep the indians in line, eh, Turbine? GG.

[TPICKRELL]

I want to throw my 2cp into the ring (well its a long post so probably 10cp)

First background, I have 3 monk type toons, a light path STR build pure monk, a light Path Kensai II/monk STR build and a pure monk dark path DEX/WIS build, so I;m dodging more wacks of the nerf bat than most monks... I've delayed TR/LRing until Shintao was redone... Turns out to be a lucky choice.

I think from reading way to many posts on the forums, that most of us agree on most of the points, aside from the silly personal back and forth in this thread (carried over from far to many other threads):

Here's my take on the situation:

On the live servers:

1: TOD is overpowered at level 9
2: TOD with 3X procs in fire stance and 5 X procs in wind is overpowered at all levels
3: The damage potential of TOD is too high given that it is very predictable damage. Most other forms of damage in equivalent amounts are much less predictable or less repeatable.
4: Dark monk DPS for WELL GEARED toons is competitive... Depending on the factors (fort, ac, auto-crit...) dark monks can be ahead or behind but in general they are in the ball park today.
5: TOD is valuable in terms of DPS AND extremely costly in terms of AP
6: Dark DEBUFFs are only taken in most builds to qualify for ToD (I have them on my dark monk and they are not worth the loss of DPS/ki to use)
7: While fists are good weapons as you progress, handwraps are inferior in many ways, mostly because their are no high end wraps other than randomly generated ones and no crafting options other than level 18 rings
8: Light path monks are overmatched by most other DPS builds and desparately need some love
9: Dark paths have too many advantages and a limited nerf is appropriate
10: Handwrap selection sucks-- we are limited to named wraps that are useless above level 8, Devouts which are meh-(extremely painful to get but important) and randomly generated wraps
11: Handwraps crit profile stinks, 20 and X2 is the worst possible crit profile in the game... Base damage is solid and makes wraps ok as compared to other randomly generated weapon types, but very much inferior to Lit II's and Min IIs which are relatively easy to obtain
11: Gearing out a well geared monk is perhaps the most painful gearing process in the game
12: The difference between a well geared monk and a non well geared monk is huge

As described on Lammania:
1: TOD is less damage
2: TOD hits a lot less targets now
3: TOD is less reliable
4: TOD still costs as much as it does on live... Too much for the value that you get now
5: Dark Path damage is considerably less in both amount of damage, amount of end game that it comes in to play and also in reliability of the damage
6: Light path has gotten considerable love and may be considerably better DPS than they were before, especially at end game... And can now contribute directly to other players DPS via the damage vulnerability debuff
7: Handwrap selection still stinks
8: Gearing is easier for light paths (can bypass without devouts), and either the same or more difficult for darks since they will have a hard time PUGing into TOD's now

I can accept that dark needed a nerf....

I can accept that as WIS is a prime stat, it should play a bigger role in the most common monk builds...

But, this triple nerf (less damage, less reliable, and doesn't work with a lot of targets) is too much without fixing some of the other issues.

I agree with Mobieus and others that a nerf was called for. I agree with Sinibyte and others that this nerf is out of line without other counter-balancing changes.

At the very least the debuffs need to be improved, or the AP requirements reduced.

I share the outrage that this was dropped on us without notice or discussions.

Also, on a related line of thought...

I work in a software company, and I am pretty sure that Turbine did not make these changes to make us buy more Hearts of Wood... But I can see where people would get that impression:

1: Starting several months ago, light monks are the most common and darks are considered gimped by many
2: Shintao and Ninja Spy are released... Shintao really stinks, so lots of people TR/LR/GR to dark path, buying hearts of wood in the process... Ninja Spy is not stellar by itself, but in comparison to Shintao it is... and combined with TOD it is very attractive. Light is considered gimped.
3: A couple of months later, Shintao is rewritten and made much more viable, at the same time that TOD is made much less attractive... Lots of consideration for TR/LR/GR back to light path.

Knowing how marketing and engineering decisions are made at my company, I doubt strongly that this was a money grab. But the sequence could not have lined up better if it had been intentional....

---
And finally some suggestions:

1: Make TOD work against all targets again, If necessary give undead/constructs/... a 50% reduction in the damage on top of the save... Or give them a bonus to the save.
2: Or reduce the AP investment to get TOD so that additional damage can be brought in with other AP purchases
3: Or replace the debuffs with something useful

4: Turbine has worn me down, so I've given up on Greensteal wraps... But why can't they give us named wraps in level 14+ level range that have a proifile similar to MIN II's, and LIT II's (fixed wraps--not craftable is ok with me)... And why can't they give us a high level named wrap that has a better crit profile like Rahls does for quarter staffs?

/Enough

[Drfirewater79]

30 + Wis Modifier

(10 + Monk Level + Wis Mod)

yeah thread got merged or i wouldnt have asked it after i read it .. got passed up in all the confusion ..

i would love to know if it counts as a spell like ability and can be amplified with void lore and potency like pale master sets can ...

if it can ... then its a nerf i can learn to live with

[The_Phenx]

This completely negates one of the only ways of reducing the heavily inflated trash monster HP in a timely manner, which further makes epic quests unpopular with many people.

A held or stunned mob + dreamspitter or multiple dreamspitters is by far the best way of reducing and killing epic mobs.

And last I checked monks were pretty gifted with a staff.

Get two or three dps based toons swinging those and its like a normal run.

I will however miss seeing portals in the shroud scream and hide at the sight of a dark monk.

[Zack77]

Sadly, before now, I never contemplated switching back to light monk. Now... Now, however, this makes me really think about it. Sure, eventually they'll give us Ninja Spy III... but in all honesty, the only reason I was dark was due to touch of death. With it nerfed to this, I really have no reason to stay Dark.

[Baahb3]

This was posted by Eladrin in another TOD thread and I felt it summed up my views on this change pretty well:

"Counting each difficulty (normal/hard/elite/epic) as different monsters (to simplify my quick data scrubbing), the new Touch of Death will still function on slightly over 83% of the monsters in the game. The vast majority of the opponents it won't function on are undead, constructs, and inanimate objects. (And gelatinous cubes. I don't know why they're immune to negative energy. I'll have to go look that up.)

Passive death block effects (such as the Boss Ward or Epic Ward) will not prevent it from landing. Effects that prevent Negative Energy damage (such as the Death Ward spell) will prevent it. Effects that increase Negative Energy damage (such as the 3xDark finisher) will increase the damage as would normally be expected.

Under 0.38% of the monsters in the game are capable of casting Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. (Which partially overlaps with the previous set - Skeletal Priests in the subterrane cast Mass Death Ward.)"

In no way does this change make dark monks obsolete or make touch of death a useless ablity, it changes the amount that it is usefull but does not change it to the point where it breaks anything.

[Schwarzie]

4: Turbine has worn me down, so I've given up on Greensteal wraps... But why can't they give us named wraps in level 14+ level range that have a proifile similar to MIN II's, and LIT II's (fixed wraps--not craftable is ok with me)... And why can't they give us a high level named wrap that has a better crit profile like Rahls does for quarter staffs?

Handwraps are no Weapons, therefore Handwraps have no critprofile. Handwraps are just a magic item that bestows Weapon Enchantments on your unarmed attacks.

[gurgar78]

Sadly, before now, I never contemplated switching back to light monk. Now... Now, however, this makes me really think about it. Sure, eventually they'll give us Ninja Spy III... but in all honesty, the only reason I was dark was due to touch of death. With it nerfed to this, I really have no reason to stay Dark.

For the record... this type of post actually supports to decision to nerf ToD.

Before you would never have considered light path. Now you have to think about it.

That implies balance.

[quickbunnie]

quickbunnie, it has been said many, many times that a x5 tod was a bug. I myself never saw more that 3 procs with a single hit, and even those are rather rare.

In the end, fire-stance dark side monks should lose like ~30 dps, and ~60 against undead & constructs. I still be playing mine, post U7, because i enjoy ripping things apart bare-handed, screaming like a berserk. And yes, i will still dump wis.

I believe you could only get past 3x procs in Wind Stance. Also, I never said it wasn't bug, I knew that perfectly well. I was only stating that its current implementation was overpowered (at lvl 9, up to 5x proc - bugged or not) - but I realize that might be getting redundant.

Regardless, my main point was to try to frame 500-1500 dmg/15 sec with some sort of context. It sounds like a lot because of the "500", but 15 seconds is longer than most people realize (~50 punches). Does a change need to made even then? Perhaps - but I think that the proposed nerf may be a bit too much. See my earlier post for a more thorough explanation.

[rimble]

This was posted by Eladrin in another TOD thread and I felt it summed up my views on this change pretty well:

That post is on page 22 (post #435) of this thread. All threads have been consolidated into this one.

[sephiroth1084]

I think the argument for dumping Wis has gotten much weaker.

[RuneDude]

How about halving the damage vs undead/constructs and those with death ward, and they still get a save for half again? and drop the ability to enhance it with the the dark/dark/dark.

So it was to overpowered against undead/constructs was the problem? cause with it being enchanced we now have the potential to do more against most things, and zero against others. I guess I would just rather have the versatility than the boost.

I think what upsets me most, is that dark monks got a double nerf to Tod, and nothing else. No tier 3 option for ninja spy or any new ability for the old tiers, and most important: any change to the dark finishers!

An idea if this is how it will be is let the darkx3 finisher give some vulnerablity to those mobs now immune to Tod. So if they fail a save, Tod works at half (with save for half). So its more of a pain and less damage, but there is a chance.

Some ideas for dark finishers that would help, a main effect for trash, and a secondary effect that always has a chance to work (maybe also increase cost to 20):
Air: The hit works like a trip attack (using the DC it has already). Vertigo items should not enhance this, but class abilities should. Also it partially blinds them giving them a -4 to attacks (works on everything, even purple, with the periodic save to break, stacks)
Earth: On a fail save they turn to stone (as the spell, with immunities to that spell applying here), periodic chance to break. Also partially nauseates them giving a -4 to fort saves.
Fire: On a failed save gives them the equivalent of something like a burning blood (1 or 2 points per monk level per tick until break). Also sears their mind and body, giving a -4 to will and reflex.
Water: Paralyzed but instead of humanoids, anything a paralyzing weapon would work on, and no auto crit like the weapon. Also works on undead, and stops them like a halt undead would. Also gives them -2 to damage rolls as the secondary effect.

[SINIBYTE]

For the record... this type of post actually supports to decision to nerf ToD.

Before you would never have considered light path. Now you have to think about it.

That implies balance.

That's the thing, it isn't balance. It was either go dark for solid DPS or light for party support. When you remove high end DPS from the equation, you're left with... go light for party support or go dark for subpar DPS. If you are interested in rolling a pure DPS character, monk is no longer an option.

[gurgar78]

That's the thing, it isn't balance. It was either go dark for solid DPS or light for party support. When you remove high end DPS from the equation, you're left with... go light for party support or go dark for subpar DPS. If you are interested in rolling a pure DPS character, monk is no longer an option.

Dark still does more DPS against most things than Light does. So the choice is still between party support or greater personal DPS. And Dark can do party support against mobs for which their bread n butter attack does not work.

[Drfirewater79]

has anyone confirmed if

void lore ... and potency will increase ToD now that it is a neg energy effect?
can it crit?

[The_Phenx]

Handwraps are no Weapons, therefore Handwraps have no critprofile. Handwraps are just a magic item that bestows Weapon Enchantments on your unarmed attacks.

So why not petition the devs for this ---->>>>


Maybe you get a little better crit profile and still do your base damage.

[Goldenadult79]

Dark still does more DPS against most things than Light does. So the choice is still between party support or greater personal DPS. And Dark can do party support against mobs for which their bread n butter attack does not work.

What party support does a dark monk have? you mean their elemental debuffs?
Just so you know, the level 3 path feat, Fists of darkness, Also does NOT work on undead.

[Nines9]

I understand nerfing it to some extent, but I think the whole thing is a little bit overboard. The quad+ procs were overkill, but were a bug and were to be fixed anyways. Level 9 is too early, so either make it a later level enhancement or make it scale with monk levels. Changing the energy type is fine, but perhaps have an enhancement that you could spend ap on to change the element type would be more appropriate. There is just a ton of stuff it's not going to work on anymore. The save is meh, could go either way. There really aren't a whole lot of reasons to go dark in the first place, beside the incorporeal and sa dmg which is based on mob or situation. TOD was the key.

The biggest issue though isn't the amount of dmg we lose (which can be a lot depending on the mob), but the perceived loss of dmg. It's not really easy to get into a ToD as it is as a dark monk. It's either "Dark? K come on in." or "We already have a monk, sorry". Now it's going to be a whole lot of the latter. Perception in this game is key, and while some things have changed in a lot of circles monks are still looked at as mediocre dps that can stun, and this isn't going to help that facet.

No, I am not gloating over the fix, and the ones that think so are the ones that are complaining the most over it. I am merely stating I agree with the fix.

I am neither requiring the the services of the worlds smallest violin, nor a nice piece of cheese. I am considering tr'ing into another class, but am still undecided. I'm not happy, but not freaking out. However to myself, and seemingly many others, it looks like your gloating at least a smidge.